Batboard

For some reason my 800 trunked Spectra will TX on simplex, but will not TX on the trunked system - why?

Everything in the programming looks perfect, and for all intensive purposes it should work, but when I key the mic... the radio makes about 6 attempts to affiliate and them gives me the steady beep.

Any one have any thoughts on what may be the problem?

BMW FREQ

Well if it's flashing the red light, that means the following:

1) It sees the trunking system
and
2) It's trying to make in inbound TX request

If it's coming back with a bonk after a few attempts this is most likely because your radio's ID isn't authorized on the system or at least on the talkgroup you are trying to transmit on. Does the screen say anything like NOT AUTH when it comes back with a bonk?

I guess the first question to ask would be - are you an authorized user on the system in question? If so, taking your radio to the people in charge of programming would easily fix the problem as there's a chance you put in the wrong radio ID.

If you aren't authorized, well, that's a different conversation all together.

What he said. What system ID, and when did this start to occur?

Yes - I am an authorized user on the system. I am using the same ID that my portable has been programmed with.

This may or may not have started back when I installed a TX inhibit switch. I had to move a few zero ohm resistors/jumpers around on the back of the control head (remotely mounted radio) before the TX inhibit switch would work. Now - is it possible that this caused my problem?

BMW FREQ

It's possible but I don't see how. As long as your radio hasn't somehow changed it's radio ID (impossible without human interaction), it should be able to affiliate and transmit just the same. You might want to check with the System Administrator to make sure your ID hasn't been zapped for whatever reason.

If the portable and mobile have the same ID and both on....I'd say there is a problem there. If so, the system admin needs to be slapped. You not SUPPOSE to have duplicate ID's in service or you run into these kind of problems.

Well - my ID couldn't have been zapped, cuz my portable works fine.

The reason this is so perplexing is - the code plug seems to be correct; the radio TX's on simplex, and it receives and tracks just fine.

Could it be something to with the way I remotely mounted the radio? Maybe a cable issue? (I'm just tossin stuff out there)

If the ID were not authorized, the TX light would blink only once or maybe twice as the radio sends its ISW, then bonk when rejected.

The fact that the TX light keeps re-trying suggests that the system is not seeing or decoding the ISW.

Probable transmit problem, low power out or distorted data. But in reality, the radio is doing you a favor.

Duplicating an ID that you are assigned for one unit into another unit is a BIG NO-NO.

Leave well enough alone and put this bad radio on the shelf and forget you ever did this before the system admin detects your transgression and your authorization is recinded. Either that, or get it repaired and request a proper discreet ID for the second unit.

i agree with all the above, your mobile shouldn't be the same id as your portable, you are confusing the system. it's kinda like giving two computers the same ip address. take the radio to the system administrator and get another id for your mobile.

So - if I'm hearing you correctly; the system will not allow duplicate ID's? How does the system know the difference between my portable and my mobile if they are using the same ID?

I guess for every 10 things you think you know, there are 20 that you don't.

Seriously, why don't you take these questions and your problematic spectra to your TRS system admin? It's great that you're an authorized user, but are you an authorized programmer? I would bet not since you're duplicating radio IDs and you didn't know that was a bad thing.

KD6HXH wrote:So - if I'm hearing you correctly; the system will not allow duplicate ID's? How does the system know the difference between my portable and my mobile if they are using the same ID?

I guess for every 10 things you think you know, there are 20 that you don't.

You can't have the same ID duplicated because it confuses the system when it sees two radios with the same ID. That's not entirely accurate or the whole reason, but to make a long story short, that's about it.

Technically, as long as only one radio was on at a time, there wouldn't be a problem, but I highly doubt your system admin would like the idea of someone doing that. Take him/her the radio and get another ID assigned.

Using multiple radios with the same ID on the same talkgroup on the same system works fine and transparent if done correctly. There was a point that I had about four radios programmed to the same ID all active and they all transmitted just fine. I could even private call my ID and talk between them all. You have to make sure that auto-affiliation is turned off. If you have an invalid ID, you get one flash on the TX LED and then an error tone. You don't get "NOT AUTH" or anything like that, at least never on a system running spectras.

Your problem is tuning. The radio receiver is probably tuned OK, the transmitter is not tuned enough for data transmission but OK for simplex operation. Every Spectra I've owned did the same thing. I've had to take it in for tuning and then it would work great.

Now, what I've said is totally anti-system-admin. I just said it to debunk some of the info that was coming out. The proper thing to do is to have it serviced and then have the admin give you another ID.

to answer his original question.
If the radio recieves the trunk control channel it will then try an affiliate.
If the PA is bad, the antenna is bad(but good enough to recieve the CC)
or maybe if you play around with the jumpers.
you get the sytems you said.

put the jumpers back.

With all said above, I will throw in my two cents. Check your power to the radio. I have seen this with certain M power supplies. Could happen on vehicle installs too. The key up and hand-shake to the control channel happens very quick. If there is a voltage drop during this time, the high speed data could be trashed. (My fix for those old 10 amp power supplies that would give this symptom would be to pull the regulatator IC from the socket and hard solder to the PCB).

Make sure there is no fluctuations from RX to TX in the voltage supply.

Try the radio somewhere else.

It may be a long shot, but what have you got to lose?

Having multiple units with the same ID is not necessarily a problem, at least from an electronic standpoint. The human standpoint is something else.

The system will respond to the last affiliating unit with the common ID. If this is a SmartZone system, and you happen to be the only unit in the zone, you could miss a call. Otherwise, it is generally no big deal.

Years ago, my boss owned a type-I system, and we had some customers with more units than their fleet size would allow. He had us duplicate their ID's, explaining to the customer that turning off one ID would result in multiple units getting booted. The customer agreed, since it would be too much of an inconvenience to him to have all of his units come in for reprogramming. We had no complaints, and it was that way for a while.

Now I work with a P-25 system, and I have several units with duplicate ID's. Mostly they are back-up units, used if a console goes down, but it is not an issue.

What about the connect-tone? If it's wrong, could that also give him the same symptoms?

Duplicate ID's on a single site system...no technical issues at all, just billing problems for system admins, since they wouldn't know about multiple radios on the system which aren't being paid for...so it's a big no-no.

Duplicate ID's on a SmartZone system are a whole different matter, since a duplicate ID affiliating one one site will boot the radio with the same ID from a different site. As was mentioned, this could result in missed calls to the booted radio, and also cause it to bonk the next time it goes to key up...until it re-affiliates & then boots the offending radio from it's site...it's a potential never ending circle. We've had to track down a few radios over the years which were causing the above problems. Some systems are equipped with software which can identify ID's which have been duplicated (based on time/distance of affiliations) & zaps them whether they're 'authorized' or not.

Bottom line, unless the admin knows about it, duplicate ID's aren't a good idea.

Not that it's the problem with the Spectra...I suspect it's off frequency, or low/no RF power, or power supply.

Todd

"... Bottom line, unless the admin knows about it, duplicate ID's aren't a good idea...."
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Exactly!

Depending on the system, the adminstrator, the owner, their policies, and local law - getting caught could be as simple as "Bad boy, Jon, don't do that anymore". Or it could mean permanent revocation of authorization - or prosecution for theft of service - or even prosecution for felony computer trespass.

Any way you slice it - it's wrong. Fix the radio and the ID problem. If you don't think they will give you a second ID or you already know you have been doing this because they won't give you one or you don't want to pay for it - what else is there to say.

My two bits worth:
If the connect tone were wrong, you would connect, then drop the transmission.
Sac reject would allow you to monitor your talk group, but not transmit.
You could jump on the "tail" of a transmission, be able to transmit.
You need nothing other than the correct frequency and connect tone to seize the channel.
If the "Size Code" is wrong there is no telling what could happen.
Assuming all programming is correct, and you can monitor but not get a channel grant.
My guess:
Chances are that the VCO compensation is off, distorting the data.
Off hand I don't recall if there is a VCO compensation adjustment in the Spectra. The VCO could also be failing.
The result being distorted ISW (Inbound Signaling Word) to the controller IRB
(Inbound Recovery Board). Too much bit error to decode your request, but not so much distortion that normal analog transmissions sound OK.

LuiePL wrote:What about the connect-tone? If it's wrong, could that also give him the same symptoms?

He didn't specify if it's a SmartNet system or not. If it's SmartNet (or SmartZone) the Connect Tone is provided by the controller so whatever setting was programmed in RSS is overridden. If it's a Privacy Plus system however, you must program the correct CT.

If its not an Astro Spectra its not SmartZone.

bellersley wrote:

LuiePL wrote:What about the connect-tone? If it's wrong, could that also give him the same symptoms?

He didn't specify if it's a SmartNet system or not. If it's SmartNet (or SmartZone) the Connect Tone is provided by the controller so whatever setting was programmed in RSS is overridden. If it's a Privacy Plus system however, you must program the correct CT.

I had a trunked Maxtrac that had a blown PA....

It would seem like it would Tx okay on simplex, but it was only really transmitting exciter power, when I tried to key my talkgroup, it would just keep trying to auto affiliate and give the "bonk" when you keyed, but it would still recieve okay...

Not necessarily. Could be an E7 spectra.

dirtrat wrote:If its not an Astro Spectra its not SmartZone.

bellersley wrote:

LuiePL wrote:What about the connect-tone? If it's wrong, could that also give him the same symptoms?

He didn't specify if it's a SmartNet system or not. If it's SmartNet (or SmartZone) the Connect Tone is provided by the controller so whatever setting was programmed in RSS is overridden. If it's a Privacy Plus system however, you must program the correct CT.

dirtrat wrote:If its not an Astro Spectra its not SmartZone.

Yup, I guess those 5000++ analog Spectras that Toronto Police use on their SmartZone system are really an Astro Spectra in an analog case?