There's a question for ya: How are we, the "civilian" aftermarket that Motorola doesn't really love to death, going to get our rebandable Astro radios rebanded when the time comes to do that?
And does anyone have a list of what Motorola radios are eligible for rebanding, anyway?
I'd imagine that the Jedi series and anything older will not be rebandable,
but maybe a lot of newer ones will be.
Elroy
Rebanding...how will it affect us?
Moderator: Queue Moderator
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Elroy Jetson
- Posts: 1158
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2001 4:00 pm
Welcome back from the dead. A lot of rebanding questions can be answered in this Knowledge Base thread:
Article: http://batboard.batlabs.com/kb.php?mode=article&k=61
Thread/discussion: http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.php?t=66922
It gives a listing of the rebandable models.
Todd
[adjusted links, one to article, other to thread - Alex]
Article: http://batboard.batlabs.com/kb.php?mode=article&k=61
Thread/discussion: http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.php?t=66922
It gives a listing of the rebandable models.
Todd
[adjusted links, one to article, other to thread - Alex]
No trees were harmed in the posting of this message...however an extraordinarily large number of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.
Welcome to the /\/\achine.
Welcome to the /\/\achine.
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Elroy Jetson
- Posts: 1158
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2001 4:00 pm
OK, now suppose that one of us "civilians" has a rebandable radio and we'd need to have it reflashed in order to continue getting (legal, of course) use out of it. But we're not Motorola contract customers or directly associated with an agency that has a Motorola contract.
How would WE get our radios reflashed for rebanding?
Elroy
How would WE get our radios reflashed for rebanding?
Elroy
Rebanding affects 800 MHz trunked radio systems; some SMR, mostly public safety. Sprint / Nextel is obligated to pay for whatever is necessary to reprogram, upgrade, or replace every radio on these systems to result in equivalent service when rebanding is completed.
However, their only responsibility is to negotiate with the system licensee - not the individual users. If you have a radio operating on one of the affected systems and that radio is not owned by the licensee, it is possible that you could be overlooked in the process. Contact the system administrator to be sure your radio is included in the rebanding project so that Sprint / Nextel pays - not you.
If you have a personally owned radio that is operating on a trunked radio system - in any manner - monitoring only - whatever - and not known to the system administrator or authorized by them - you are SOL.
Your radio won't be included in the system's rebanding project, Sprint / Nextel won't pay, and since most of the local shops will be involved in the rebanding - few of them will endanger their relationship with the system administrator, Motorola, or Sprint / Nextel by updating an unauthorized unit.
However, their only responsibility is to negotiate with the system licensee - not the individual users. If you have a radio operating on one of the affected systems and that radio is not owned by the licensee, it is possible that you could be overlooked in the process. Contact the system administrator to be sure your radio is included in the rebanding project so that Sprint / Nextel pays - not you.
If you have a personally owned radio that is operating on a trunked radio system - in any manner - monitoring only - whatever - and not known to the system administrator or authorized by them - you are SOL.
Your radio won't be included in the system's rebanding project, Sprint / Nextel won't pay, and since most of the local shops will be involved in the rebanding - few of them will endanger their relationship with the system administrator, Motorola, or Sprint / Nextel by updating an unauthorized unit.
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MTS2000des
- Posts: 3347
- Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 4:59 pm
- What radios do you own?: XTS2500, XTS5000, and MTS2000
could one not send their radio to the depot for flat rate and ASSume it may come back with RB firmware (ie, a 512K MTS2000, XTS3000, etc)?
yeah I know that would be expensive but possible?
yeah I know that would be expensive but possible?
The views here are my own and do not represent those of anyone else or the company, the boss, his wife, his dog or distant relatives.
Sending your radio to the depot should always be an available way to get the latest firmware - assuming that's worth the $300 - 400 hit.
However, may of these "civilian" radios may not be good candidates for a trip to the depot: surgically hacked by removing transmit parts , W.O. flashcode, Nick radios, codeplug forced in so serial number doesn't match tags or no tags at all, etc.
Even most of the local shops won't touch those radios after all the warnings got sent to them during the Nick fiasco.
However, may of these "civilian" radios may not be good candidates for a trip to the depot: surgically hacked by removing transmit parts , W.O. flashcode, Nick radios, codeplug forced in so serial number doesn't match tags or no tags at all, etc.
Even most of the local shops won't touch those radios after all the warnings got sent to them during the Nick fiasco.
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Elroy Jetson
- Posts: 1158
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2001 4:00 pm
Clearly those are events which are due to incompetent programming.
I can program an Astro to stealthily monitor ANY Motorola trunked system, and you'll never know it's there NOR will it even be ABLE to transmit to the system if my codeplug setup is not altered.
And that's also the only way I ever would program one.
Personally, I think that every system administrator should have a policy regarding "civilian" listeners using pro radios, and that policy would be this:
YES, we will allow you to monitor our system with a radio that is capable of
operating on our system. BUT only with the following requirements:
1: Your radio must be submitted to our designated radio service shop for
checkout, proper operation, and programming. You may NOT alter the trunked programming of your radio in any way.
2: Your radio will be assigned a user ID on the system and your radio
will be programmed to affiliate but will not be permitted to transmit.
3: Your radio will be maintained by the radio shop on a service contract
that YOU must pay for. Your service contract rate will be equal to what
this agency pays for service contrast work, per equivalent type of radio.
This service contract obligation is mandatory if you want to use your
radio to scan our system. You must submit the radio for checkout and
alignment (and inspection of its codeplug) any time that you are
requested to do so by any system administrator, or no less than once
per year as required per the terms of the service contract.
4: Your radio may be disabled temporarily at the discretion of system
administrators in the event of a situation involving radio traffic of a highly
sensitive nature. In this case, your radio will be restored to normal
operation within a reasonable period of time after such situation has been
resolved and normal traffic has resumed.
5: You may not loan your radio to any other person or sell it to any other
person while it contains system programming. If you sell your radio or
choose to discontinue using it, you must submit it to the radio shop for
deprogramming.
6: You must meet specific eligibility requirements. These requirements
may be outlined in a separate document, but will include a requirement
that you submit to a criminal background investigation. You may not be
a convicted felon, and not currently under charges or indictment for any
felony or first degree misdemeanor or any crime of violence or theft.
If you meet any of these conditions, you are not eligible to participate
in this program.
7: Authorized transmission capabilty: In specific case where it is judged
beneficial for you to have limited ability to communicate directly with
authorized agencies, you may be granted the privilege of transmit
capability on specific relevant system talkgroups. Examples: If you
are a volunteer EMS worker, you may be granted talk authority on
the groups you would normally use in your duties. A volunteer working
with a police department or the sheriff's department may also be
granted the use of some groups for legitimate purposes. And special
volunteers such as amateur radio operators who are associated with an
organization that links amateur radio operators to the county's emergency
services department may be given similar permission so that they may
summon help on specific talkgroups in the event of an emergency, such
as to report a fire, vehicle accident, or major crime.
At no time should the granting of permission to transmit on the system for
any reason be considered to be authority to transmit without a legitimate
need as described above.
8: Failure to comply with any of these terms of service may result in
forfeiture of your radio without compensation. However, so long as
you fully comply with all the terms of this agreement, and commit no
legal infractions that are associated with the ownership or use of this
radio, your radio may not be disabled except for caused defined in
section 4, and your radio may not be confiscated by any officer or
system administrator for any reason. So long as you use it in a
responsible manner, you are authorized to monitor the system in a legal
fashion.
9: A:Unauthorized users and monitors of this system that are found to be
using equipment that has transmitted into this system shall have their
radio equipment confiscated, deprogrammed, and returned to them
for the first offense, with a warning. A person with ONE such warning
would be encouraged to join the above described program.
B: A person who earns a second warnng shall forfeit his radio equipment
and may be subject to criminal charges.
C: A person who has intentionally interfered with the system's operation
or who has committed another violation subsequent to a second warning
shall be subject to criminal prosecution and shall forfeit his radio
equipment, and at this stage, a warrant for search and seizure of
illegally owned radio programming software shall be obtained and
executed. Seizure and destruction of such software shall be ordered.
D: Any additional offenses shall be investigated and prosecuted to the
fullest extent of the law, including guaranteed prosecution for any
copyright violations regarding any radio programming software found to
be in the possession of the individual in question and which has not been
properly obtained by legal means.
Within those rules, I believe that all public safety systems should allow
the usage of commerical two-way trunked radios as scanners.
Elroy
I can program an Astro to stealthily monitor ANY Motorola trunked system, and you'll never know it's there NOR will it even be ABLE to transmit to the system if my codeplug setup is not altered.
And that's also the only way I ever would program one.
Personally, I think that every system administrator should have a policy regarding "civilian" listeners using pro radios, and that policy would be this:
YES, we will allow you to monitor our system with a radio that is capable of
operating on our system. BUT only with the following requirements:
1: Your radio must be submitted to our designated radio service shop for
checkout, proper operation, and programming. You may NOT alter the trunked programming of your radio in any way.
2: Your radio will be assigned a user ID on the system and your radio
will be programmed to affiliate but will not be permitted to transmit.
3: Your radio will be maintained by the radio shop on a service contract
that YOU must pay for. Your service contract rate will be equal to what
this agency pays for service contrast work, per equivalent type of radio.
This service contract obligation is mandatory if you want to use your
radio to scan our system. You must submit the radio for checkout and
alignment (and inspection of its codeplug) any time that you are
requested to do so by any system administrator, or no less than once
per year as required per the terms of the service contract.
4: Your radio may be disabled temporarily at the discretion of system
administrators in the event of a situation involving radio traffic of a highly
sensitive nature. In this case, your radio will be restored to normal
operation within a reasonable period of time after such situation has been
resolved and normal traffic has resumed.
5: You may not loan your radio to any other person or sell it to any other
person while it contains system programming. If you sell your radio or
choose to discontinue using it, you must submit it to the radio shop for
deprogramming.
6: You must meet specific eligibility requirements. These requirements
may be outlined in a separate document, but will include a requirement
that you submit to a criminal background investigation. You may not be
a convicted felon, and not currently under charges or indictment for any
felony or first degree misdemeanor or any crime of violence or theft.
If you meet any of these conditions, you are not eligible to participate
in this program.
7: Authorized transmission capabilty: In specific case where it is judged
beneficial for you to have limited ability to communicate directly with
authorized agencies, you may be granted the privilege of transmit
capability on specific relevant system talkgroups. Examples: If you
are a volunteer EMS worker, you may be granted talk authority on
the groups you would normally use in your duties. A volunteer working
with a police department or the sheriff's department may also be
granted the use of some groups for legitimate purposes. And special
volunteers such as amateur radio operators who are associated with an
organization that links amateur radio operators to the county's emergency
services department may be given similar permission so that they may
summon help on specific talkgroups in the event of an emergency, such
as to report a fire, vehicle accident, or major crime.
At no time should the granting of permission to transmit on the system for
any reason be considered to be authority to transmit without a legitimate
need as described above.
8: Failure to comply with any of these terms of service may result in
forfeiture of your radio without compensation. However, so long as
you fully comply with all the terms of this agreement, and commit no
legal infractions that are associated with the ownership or use of this
radio, your radio may not be disabled except for caused defined in
section 4, and your radio may not be confiscated by any officer or
system administrator for any reason. So long as you use it in a
responsible manner, you are authorized to monitor the system in a legal
fashion.
9: A:Unauthorized users and monitors of this system that are found to be
using equipment that has transmitted into this system shall have their
radio equipment confiscated, deprogrammed, and returned to them
for the first offense, with a warning. A person with ONE such warning
would be encouraged to join the above described program.
B: A person who earns a second warnng shall forfeit his radio equipment
and may be subject to criminal charges.
C: A person who has intentionally interfered with the system's operation
or who has committed another violation subsequent to a second warning
shall be subject to criminal prosecution and shall forfeit his radio
equipment, and at this stage, a warrant for search and seizure of
illegally owned radio programming software shall be obtained and
executed. Seizure and destruction of such software shall be ordered.
D: Any additional offenses shall be investigated and prosecuted to the
fullest extent of the law, including guaranteed prosecution for any
copyright violations regarding any radio programming software found to
be in the possession of the individual in question and which has not been
properly obtained by legal means.
Within those rules, I believe that all public safety systems should allow
the usage of commerical two-way trunked radios as scanners.
Elroy
Thanks Elroy...I dozed off about 1/2 way through & now have the "M", "N", & Spacebar keys imprinted on my forehead. 
While I agree in principal to the airwaves being 'free' for anyone to listen to unencrypted conversations, the people on this board who are savvy enough to listen to a desired system without interference would never agree to sign something giving someone the right to take away their personal radio. Anyone else who wants to listen but doesn't have the 'know how' to do it themselves, get a scanner...seriously.
BTW, you cannot program a true Astro P25 9600bps radio to "monitor only", to my knowledge. Even with the "hidden channels" trick.
Todd
While I agree in principal to the airwaves being 'free' for anyone to listen to unencrypted conversations, the people on this board who are savvy enough to listen to a desired system without interference would never agree to sign something giving someone the right to take away their personal radio. Anyone else who wants to listen but doesn't have the 'know how' to do it themselves, get a scanner...seriously.
BTW, you cannot program a true Astro P25 9600bps radio to "monitor only", to my knowledge. Even with the "hidden channels" trick.
Todd
No trees were harmed in the posting of this message...however an extraordinarily large number of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.
Welcome to the /\/\achine.
Welcome to the /\/\achine.
I sent in my Astro Saber to the depot for the latest firmware and they added digital id which I requested for $160.00 and they payed the shipping because they took forever. My local M dealer wanted several hundred dollars to do that.xmo wrote:Sending your radio to the depot should always be an available way to get the latest firmware - assuming that's worth the $300 - 400 hit.
However, may of these "civilian" radios may not be good candidates for a trip to the depot: surgically hacked by removing transmit parts , W.O. flashcode, Nick radios, codeplug forced in so serial number doesn't match tags or no tags at all, etc.
Even most of the local shops won't touch those radios after all the warnings got sent to them during the Nick fiasco.
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Elroy Jetson
- Posts: 1158
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2001 4:00 pm
If it's just software, and that software exists, I don't see why they can't do it. I'd guess that at least 1 meg Astro Sabers are still supported in software and firmware upgrades, anyway.
As for my previous suggestions, I'd be happy to comply with such a policy as it would ensure that so long as I used my radio in a responsible manner, I could have it with me any time and any place I chose to and would not feel the slightest need to keep it semi-secret. I don't exactly HIDE radios, but if I'm going into a location where the police probably are going to be, I will
choose to leave my radio in the car instead of carry it with me because there
are a few police who would MUCH rather seize property first and let you
fight it out through the court system later. I'd like to have protection
against that sort of cop in such a situation. Being an authorized monitoring
user would ensure that.
It would also ensure that I'd have access to the latest system updates, too.
I'd take those terms in a heartbeat.
As for my previous suggestions, I'd be happy to comply with such a policy as it would ensure that so long as I used my radio in a responsible manner, I could have it with me any time and any place I chose to and would not feel the slightest need to keep it semi-secret. I don't exactly HIDE radios, but if I'm going into a location where the police probably are going to be, I will
choose to leave my radio in the car instead of carry it with me because there
are a few police who would MUCH rather seize property first and let you
fight it out through the court system later. I'd like to have protection
against that sort of cop in such a situation. Being an authorized monitoring
user would ensure that.
It would also ensure that I'd have access to the latest system updates, too.
I'd take those terms in a heartbeat.
I think Elroy's remarks echo my sentiments 99.99999%. I've worked in sensitive public safety (death investigations), nearly, my entire adult life, save the last five years, but have always been a scanner at heart. I've NEVER said anything that I minded anyone hearing on any trunked system. I always had Secure as an option, and there were certainly times when I HAD to use it, because the news were itching to get the scoop on a very sensitive case. IE: The next of kin was waiting to hear from me...
While I am a loyal supporter of rule of law; I do believe that private citizens can make a huge difference in crime, just by listening and participating. I now live in a tiny little town, where nearly everyone listens to the local police. There have been two car chases this past year where the suspects bailed out and ran. The locals came running out of their houses or called into the PD and led to the capture of both suspects. You can damn well bet that criminals will use "techinicalities" to their favor. Why can't law abiding citizens do the same?
It sort of reminds me of states that outlaw cell phone usage when they're driving... Why punish the vast majority of people who don't screw up? Crucify those who do, and thin the gene pool.
While I am a loyal supporter of rule of law; I do believe that private citizens can make a huge difference in crime, just by listening and participating. I now live in a tiny little town, where nearly everyone listens to the local police. There have been two car chases this past year where the suspects bailed out and ran. The locals came running out of their houses or called into the PD and led to the capture of both suspects. You can damn well bet that criminals will use "techinicalities" to their favor. Why can't law abiding citizens do the same?
It sort of reminds me of states that outlaw cell phone usage when they're driving... Why punish the vast majority of people who don't screw up? Crucify those who do, and thin the gene pool.
Just curious... How will re-banding get rid of illegal PTT atempts?KS4VT wrote:Personally I can't wait to re-band to get rid of all of the illegal affiliations and PTT's attemts that I see quite often of those who try to illegally access the system.
Yes, if the radio doesn't have rebanding firmware, then the radio won't work anymore once re-banding is in full effect -that I understand.
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Elroy Jetson
- Posts: 1158
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2001 4:00 pm
Actually a non rebanded radio will still be able to tune in the control channels, however the frequency table will be wrong. So when the control channel tells the radio to go to X channel, it will go to the old Z channel.Elroy Jetson wrote:If the system in question has been moved to frequencies that a non-rebanded radio has access too, it won't even be able to get access to the new control channels, so it won't be able to access the system at all.
Or so I'd guess.
Elroy
All rebanding firmware basically does is change the voice frequency table for the TRS to reflect the new band changes.
Should be interesting when they actually revert to the new reband frequencies. The scanner forums will be packed with people acking why they can't receive their TRS anymore. hehehe
Astro Saber
Absolutely! There are thousands and thousands of them still in daily service. It's around $475alex wrote:Are they even covering the Astro Saber by flat rate repair?
I know the parts costs have gone up by leaps and bounds... but it may be an important question to ask.
Motorola here (.au) have a flat out "go away" policy if you call them up, and all the dealers say "what's an ASTRO radio?"Pj wrote:Some people have been able to go direct to the depot, but depends on who you know, and if you fall under certain contracts...its the exception and not the norm.
From here, it tends to be easier to find someone in the USA to send it to the depot on your behalf.
not quite correct. There are Australian dealers that will service gear if you have the right contacts.mr.syntrx wrote:Motorola here (.au) have a flat out "go away" policy if you call them up, and all the dealers say "what's an ASTRO radio?"Pj wrote:Some people have been able to go direct to the depot, but depends on who you know, and if you fall under certain contracts...its the exception and not the norm.
From here, it tends to be easier to find someone in the USA to send it to the depot on your behalf.
trust me, they are theremr.syntrx wrote:Eh. I gave up after ringing 9 dealers in two states and one territory.
I generally have no use for Motorola's services anyway. The equipment I have that they will still service is still in top notch operating condition.
XTS5k's and XTL's can be purchased along with just about anything else INCLUDING ofb boards
MUCH cheaper than USA pricing.
.......and when you see the same radio back on the system 5 minutes later after a successfull inhibit. PricelessKS4VT wrote:Sure gives me the warm fuzzy!xmo wrote:Don't you just love it when you submit the inhibit command and the system responds "SUCCESSFUL" ?
Gotcha!
For everything else, use MasterCard.......
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compuman81
- Posts: 210
- Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:53 pm
I have a firmware/codeplug combination in my radio that doesn't allow the transmitter to be keyed in any instance even if programmed to do so AND doesn't accept inhibit commands. Takes care of that.....Hightower wrote:.......and when you see the same radio back on the system 5 minutes later after a successfull inhibit. PricelessKS4VT wrote:Sure gives me the warm fuzzy!xmo wrote:Don't you just love it when you submit the inhibit command and the system responds "SUCCESSFUL" ?
Gotcha!
For everything else, use MasterCard.......
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compuman81
- Posts: 210
- Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:53 pm
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compuman81
- Posts: 210
- Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:53 pm