System Admin???

[fyrfytr182]

Hello fellow Batlab readers & posters...

I don't know if this question has been posted before, but I couldn't find it in a search:

What's the best way to become a system administrator for a Motorola system? What are the qualifications? Is there a "certification" similar to how Microsoft's? Does it take a B.S. EE?

I am possibly considering a career change and was thinking of some options.

Thanks again!

[thebigphish]

find a company that services, hosts or runs them and apply for a job..betchya a dollar they will want someone with "relevant field related experience, in running, installing, configuring, and maintaining radio systems"

. I don't think there are any "SysAdmin" required certs out there...the couple i know all do it with FAR LESS education than a cert like that.

if you catch my drift

[N4DES]

Speaking from personal experience, I worked from the ground up from being a radio techician with 10 years in the same position with the local sheriff's office, then hired by the County as the 800 system project engineer, then when the system was completed I applied for and secured the Sys. Mgr. position.

During the time of system acceptance and in the first year of being the Sys. Mgr. I praticially lived in Schaumburg, Ill at Motorola University which enhanced my knowledge of the SmartZone system that we currently use.

Now I have a staff of 9 that work for me to include a system planner (aka engineer), 2 supervisors, and 2 technical teams. One of the teams works nights and the other team works days.

It would be correct to say that there are no professional certificates, but it would help to have items such as a college degree, FCC GROL and maybe an amateur radio license, and diverse experience in the radio/electronics field

[Bruce1807]

I tend to agree and have done my time at the Embassy Suites in Schaumburg learning 4.1, soon to be doing 7.x.
however i don't think the amateur radio license is worth zip as they want as proffesional.
The way things are going now an IT degree is just as good as an EE, however I thing a degree in Telecommunications is probably the best these days as system management is becoming more IT than radio especially when you look at 7.x or tetra

[mr.syntrx]

EE is far, far more academically challenging than IT. Anyone can get an IT degree, but you have to be bloody smart to do well in EE, and there are like 10 IT graduates for every EE graduate coming out of university.

[High_order1]

I think they line all the prospective candidates up, and the successful one stands still while the rest take a step back in unison when volunteers are called....

-Shawn

[N4DES]

EE is far, far more academically challenging than IT. Anyone can get an IT degree, but you have to be bloody smart to do well in EE, and there are like 10 IT graduates for every EE graduate coming out of university.

I totally agree, and from an applications standpoint most IT graduates know nothing of RF outside of 802.11, if they even know that much.

Again from experience I deal a whole lot more with FCC licensing (both land mobile & microwave), RF propogation, directing general site maintenance, evaluation of tower loading calulations and making related improvements, setting up lease agreements for the County's tower sites, assisting other agencies with their own radio issues, and the development of Interoperability agreements as examples. The IT folks that I know are know are not knowledgeable in this field and I get the feeling that they have no interest in it either.

I rarely deal with the systems internal workings except for evaluation of the quarterly performance reports and even with that most of the information contained in those documents are still RF related. Again an IT degree wouldn't help in this arena either.

I believe the last IT based project I did was to have the Genszai/NetVista server connected to the 102 subnet, and that was better than 3 years ago.

Unfortunately a good number of radio systems get put under IT because there is no other good place to put them. I know some who work under an IT environment as the radio system managers and hate it. I work under the "Facilities Managment" umbrella and very efficient in getting things done, especially when it comes to making infrastructure improvements.

[N4DES]

I tend to agree and have done my time at the Embassy Suites in Schaumburg learning 4.1, soon to be doing 7.x.
however i don't think the Schaumburg amateur radio license is worth zip as they want as proffesional.
The way things are going now an IT degree is just as good as an EE, however I thing a degree in Telecommunications is probably the best these days as system management is becoming more IT than radio especially when you look at 7.x or tetra

I don't which one your referencing here (Motorola University or an amateur radio license), but the amateur radio license shows an avid interest in the communications field from not only a basic radio standpoint but also as an operational one. That is why I combined it with the GROL in my statement because the higher level amateur radio license is from the same question pool as the previous Advanced class exam.

[Bruce1807]

I edited my comment. I was implying that the amateur radio license is worth zip not the Schaumburg courses, although without experience even that makes no difference. I have a motor vehicle license but that doesn't mean I know anything about cars except how to drive one.

As for EE or IT, I'm sticking with the IT guy these days and I don't mean MCSE,MCSA or any other paper engineer certificates that can be crammed into a week of boot camp.
The system manager has very little to do with RF these days and as the systems become more like cell systems,(TDMA is the next one as FDMA disappears)the IT side comes into play. 7.x is all IP and only becomes non -ip at the repeater, I also look after MESH and the Positron 911 system and so on , all IP based stuff, the RF side is a doddle, The IP and security is the biggest problem.

I rarely deal with the systems internal workings except for evaluation of the quarterly performance reports and even with that most of the information contained in those documents are still RF related. Again an IT degree wouldn't help in this arena either.

I'm not sure why an IT person couldn't do reports on the system. It's no different to traffic reports through routers.
As for IT projects, i'm constantly programming new sites (ouside the RF sites) for MOSCAD. I have nearlly all our shelter generators and A/C systems controlled and monitored from our EOC, I can switch antennas and TTA's on sites, moniter the o/p power and TTA current all with the press of a key. If you can't write scripts Moscad will sit there and be totally underutilized.
Rf propagation reports etc. are all software these days and a good package saves a lot of work. For testing I send an apprentice out in the van with the signal strength gear and GPS turned on and tell him go drive round for a day. I then just take the results, open the software and it's there in technicolor.

Well why do I go for the IT side.
My first degree is in Telecommunications, my second in Information Technology.

The IT one is getting used more and more than the telecoms.

[mr.syntrx]

I edited my comment. I was implying that the amateur radio license is worth zip not the Schaumburg courses, although without experience even that makes no difference. I have a motor vehicle license but that doesn't mean I know anything about cars except how to drive one.

As for EE or IT, I'm sticking with the IT guy these days and I don't mean MCSE,MCSA or any other paper engineer certificates that can be crammed into a week of boot camp.

Three or four years of boot camp will get you an IT degree.

I'm two years into an IT degree, at one of the best universities in the world. I'm maintaining a distinction average doing no study at all, and before I got a proper job, I showed up to about 75% of my exams hung over

You do not need an IT degree to be able to understand IP. There are thousands of people with no formal qualifications whatsoever who have no trouble at all understanding and designing complex IP networks, and from what I've read of SmartZone 7, nothing particularly tricky is employed there. You don't need a degree to program a SCADA system, either. Most IT graduates don't even know what SCADA stands for, whereas EE contains quite a few subjects dealing with control theory, and they almost certainly know nothing about RF, unless they were already hams or something. In at least one of my subjects that dealt with 802.11 etc, the only other guy who even knew what impedence is was an audio engineer in a previous career.

99% of IT graduates don't have any interest in trunked radio, or any kind of radio, for that matter, anyway. Compared to what's out there in network engineering, system administration etc, the pay sucks working on trunked radio systems, and the skills you learn aren't in nearly as high demand. Even a good desktop support guy can get $80,000 a year in Canberra, and his skills are useful in any organisation in the world.

[spectragod]

[quote="mr.syntrx and before I got a proper job, I showed up to about 75% of my exams hung over

[/quote]

Dude,

You NEED to come to Dayton and party me with me and Batdude.

SG

[Bruce1807]

You must be going to Melbourne Uni or Monash or even RMITU (where I did both degrees).
I tend to agree that money in radio sucks(well depends where you are and what the perks of the job are) and there is more in IT.
Programming Moscad especially the L units needs a good background in C or C+ and most radio people don't have that leyt alone ladder logic.
Remember we are talking system managers or admins. Impedence is for techs.

[alex]

So it sounds like it's a good thing that I have an IT degree and know radio.... hrmmmmmmmm... makes one think...

[N4DES]

Remember we are talking system managers or admins. Impedence is for techs.

That's correct, we are disussing what it takes so be a System Manager or Administrator. I have programmers and techs in my division who get paid to do programming and troubleshoot impedence problems among other issues.

It is the manager/administrator's responsibility to direct the workforce and have a vision for the end result and not do the background work.

Now I'm not saying that the manager/admin. shouldn't know how to do the work of those who report to them as I can program a radio or sweep antennas and line just like my tech's, it is just not my current job function anymore and by me doing that sort of work removes me from the management of the system as I described earlier.

This is my position description if anyone is interested...

http://www.pbcgov.com/erp/relation_pdf/0264.pdf

[MTS2000des]

Remember we are talking system managers or admins. Impedence is for techs.

That's correct, we are disussing what it takes so be a System Manager or Administrator. I have programmers and techs in my division who get paid to do programming and troubleshoot impedence problems among other issues.

It is the manager/administrator's responsibility to direct the workforce and have a vision for the end result and not do the background work.

Now I'm not saying that the manager/admin. shouldn't know how to do the work of those who report to them as I can program a radio or sweep antennas and line just like my tech's, it is just not my current job function anymore and by me doing that sort of work removes me from the management of the system as I described earlier.

This is my position description if anyone is interested...

http://www.pbcgov.com/erp/relation_pdf/0264.pdf

I wish we had more sys admins like you Mark, especially ones with radio background. the system admin for the leg of the new GEWIN Astro 25 SZ system going up in metro Atlanta is totally CLUELESS when it comes to RF. She has even been quoted as been saying (to another 911 director I know) "I just don't understand CONVENTIONAL RADIO" I am sorry but that is dangerous. Would you go to a dentist who doesn't know how to clean teeth or drill a cavity? You can have all the degrees in the world on the wall, but that doesn't mean anything if one doesn't actually KNOW the business.

On the comments on amateur radio, like it or not, radio amateurs (for the most part) have experience with RF and problem solving that comes from being a ham that can greatly benefit your RF on the job tasks. As a ham you learn how radios work, how to diagnose and repair problems, and most importantly you get real experience operating radios. You also get a perspective on solutions to problems via economic methods(in other words you don't have the luxury of the taxpayers' dime to do simple things like interoperability patches). You learn to follow the KISS rule to invoke solutions.

Not to sound snobby but I laugh when I see someone's eyes pop out when looking at an ACU-1000 or similar four to five figure price tag "interoperability" device. As a ham I had "interoperability" with a 400 dollar dual band mobile radio and dual band HT back in the early 1990's...knowing what I know as a ham can indeed enhance what I do professionally. So please don't knock it. I don't speak for KS4VT but I am sure he will agree his background as a ham has come in handy in his line of work.

[mr.syntrx]

You must be going to Melbourne Uni or Monash or even RMITU (where I did both degrees).

Was ANU, now UNSW.

Well, I do get to do a couple of radio subjects if I like, Tactical Combat Radio Systems and Non-Communications Electronic Warfare, for example

I tend to agree that money in radio sucks(well depends where you are and what the perks of the job are) and there is more in IT.
Programming Moscad especially the L units needs a good background in C or C+ and most radio people don't have that leyt alone ladder logic.

Neither do most IT graduates, unless they selected Software Engineering electives. Ladder logic is far beyond the scope of an IT degree. Electrical Engineering graduates get mandatory exposure to C and Java programming (if not a bunch of other languages like assembler for various microcontrollers), as well as ladder logic in the aforementioned control theory subjects.

Remember we are talking system managers or admins. Impedence is for techs.

It indicates a basic understanding of RF principles though. IT managers who don't know much about the details are, almost without exception, terrible IT managers. I'd guess the same would apply for radio system managers. See MTS2000des' example.

[Jim202]

I take offense to Bruce's stand that the ham license is worth ZIP.

If it wasn't for the many hams over the years and the work
they have done, many of our current communication systems
would probably not be here today. The hams have a vested
interest in doing what hasn't been done before. They have
broke the ground for many of todays communication
systems and the technology used every day.

There are companies that go out of their way to hire the
so called "worth zip" people. They know that there is a
tru interest in some of those licensed hams to care about
what they are doing and are always looking for a better
way of doing it.

Don't get me wrong with putting some hams on the soap
box. There are others that are not worth the beer your
supply to them.

Jim

however i don't think the amateur radio license is worth zip as they want as proffesional.

[N4DES]

So did we answer the OP's original questions?
He has been quiet all the way through the postings.

Mark

[5-sides]

...
Not to sound snobby but I laugh when I see someone's eyes pop out when looking at an ACU-1000 or similar four to five figure price tag "interoperability" device. As a ham I had "interoperability" with a 400 dollar dual band mobile radio and dual band HT back in the early 1990's...knowing what I know as a ham can indeed enhance what I do professionally. So please don't knock it. I don't speak for KS4VT but I am sure he will agree his background as a ham has come in handy in his line of work.

Yes, but could you patch together various nets that included the fire chief, local sheriff, state police, highway department, and regional hazmat for something like a tanker spill? Don't get me wrong, either, as ACU's, RIOS, etc come with a big price tag that must be justified, but I can envision many scenarios that would require multiple agencies to communicate with each other. Something less expensive and lower tech like an ICRI is good, but also has its limitations. Too often I see people with a Ham background try to cobble something together on the cheap, rather than go with something off-the-shelf with a big price tag. It is good to have the knowledge of other ways to do things, but you still have to "think outside the box", whether it is the Ham box or the commercial box. The Ham solution might be right today, but a commercial approach might be the way to go tomorrow.

Ham knowledge would be a plus in my book, but not a deciding factor. If you are going to be a SysAdmin, you will already be dealing with big bucks equipment. Whether to purchase ancillary equipment such as interop devices might be your decision, but is more likely to be something you are consulted on, not deciding on. Your main focus would be to manage the exising equipment and users. Also, if you rig something up, who do you turn to if it has problems? If you or your team built it, you should have the ability to deal with any problems directly, but that isn't always desired. For budgetary reasons, many municipalities or large corporations would rather have a set recurring charge for maintenance/repair instead of sporadic payments. It seems crazy, but the bean counters often have the final say in matters like that. It then is incumbent upon the SysAdmin to be able to explain things in laymen's terms.

I like someone with a strong knowledge of system capabilites and user needs, someone who has been around radio operations. If it is a county-wide system, say, then someone with a basic knowledge of how police, fire, EMS, etc operate so they can assess the wants and needs of those departments. At the same time, the administrator has to be aware of the maintenance and monitoring of the system infrastructure. It is no good if you have equipment failing due to poor maintenance practices. Do you need to actually sweep the antennas and lines? No, but you should have an understanding of what that entails and how often it should be done. The same with alignments and network updates.

I would look for someone with practical experience first and academic degrees second. Education is definitely a good thing, but nothing beats firsthand experience.

[Bruce1807]

I tend to agree
You forgot to mention the potential lawsuits when non commercial cheap stuff is used for a public safety system.

[xmo]

The problem with a ham license is that a proliferation of bozos, know-nothings, and crusty old-timers have tarnished the image of amateur radio in the eyes of many communications professionals.

If you walk into an interview for a professional level position with the attitude - "hire me because I'm a ham and I know all about communications" - you may have just sealed your fate. Even if the interviewer has an amateur license and may see the value of a license for the potential employee, you could put yourself into the other category of ham in a heartbeat.

Every time this subject comes up a bunch of folks want to jump up on the table in defense of amateur radio. It would probably be a good idea to first reflect on how the perception of amateur arrogance and incompetence was earned and how your reaction to the issue might serve to aggrevate the situation.

On the other hand, if you are in an interview and are asked if you have an amateur license, that would be the appropriate time to say so and proceed with caution. Just say something simple like: "Yes, I do have an amateur license, I have always been interested in communications"

You may find that they do appreciate this license - and even if they don't - you have been honest and not tried to make it an issue one way or the other.

[MTS2000des]

The problem with a ham license is that a proliferation of bozos, know-nothings, and crusty old-timers have tarnished the image of amateur radio in the eyes of many communications professionals.

If you walk into an interview for a professional level position with the attitude - "hire me because I'm a ham and I know all about communications" - you may have just sealed your fate. Even if the interviewer has an amateur license and may see the value of a license for the potential employee, you could put yourself into the other category of ham in a heartbeat.

Every time this subject comes up a bunch of folks want to jump up on the table in defense of amateur radio. It would probably be a good idea to first reflect on how the perception of amateur arrogance and incompetence was earned and how your reaction to the issue might serve to aggrevate the situation.

On the other hand, if you are in an interview and are asked if you have an amateur license, that would be the appropriate time to say so and proceed with caution. Just say something simple like: "Yes, I do have an amateur license, I have always been interested in communications"

You may find that they do appreciate this license - and even if they don't - you have been honest and not tried to make it an issue one way or the other.

all the more reason those of us radio amateurs also involved with public safety need to work that much harder to change the perception of amateur radio and make it a resource that public safety can use. I think there is a world of difference between a trained volunteer (who is trained by your agency, to your state's standards, not some ARRL bullschit) is an asset versus Mr.getting in the way ARES guy with his 20 HT's standing on a corner playing sidewalk commando. There are alot of radio amateurs in the public safety community who are ashamed of the SERVICE (note I said SERVICE not HOBBY like alot of folks seem to think the amateur radio service was created solely for their personal recreation) because of the few assclowns who have put us in a negative light.

Amateur radio is a positive asset to any public safety community. No I am not advocating use of ham equipment on PS systems, or ham grade stuff. But the fact is serious people (read= not the uncertified assclowns) bring with them a knowledge and skill set that is lacking in many a public safety comm circles, like some of the folks on the newly forming GEWIN (new State of Georgia radio system) lack a GROL let alone a ham ticket, have zero RF background and understanding of networks...yet they hold a position in control of a life safety mission critical radio network.

One way hams can give back and serve the community in which we exist is to assist people like this in understanding just what it is they are procuring with our tax dollars and how to best utilize this. The Motorola sales guy isn't going to school them for free on the basics that they should know about propagation, VHF versus UHF versus 800, antenna performance, etc. His answer is always going to be "write a check".
We're not trying to sell anyone anything, we just wish to serve our community and keep our radio service around for generations to come.

[mr.syntrx]

There are alot of radio amateurs in the public safety community who are ashamed of the SERVICE (note I said SERVICE not HOBBY like alot of folks seem to think the amateur radio service was created solely for their personal recreation) because of the few assclowns who have put us in a negative light.

Service as in Citizen's Band Radio Service, Land Mobile Radio Service, Family Radio Service, General Mobile Radio Service

[5-sides]

I tend to agree
You forgot to mention the potential lawsuits when non commercial cheap stuff is used for a public safety system.

Too true.

It would be better to have the knowledge when faced with an aggressive salesman trying to push equipment that is not needed, or when factoring in requirements that might be somewhat uncommon, but necessary for your application.

I know I'm not putting my butt on the line for backyard-engineering a solution. Even if it is not your rig that fails, if there is a failure and someone sees that there is a "non-standard" piece of equipment in the loop, where do you think the finger of blame will point? Its bad enough when you have various manufacturers playing the blame game, but throw in something built by an amature (no matter how skilled he is), and everyone will blame the little guy.