Batboard

Just wonder how "secure" the digital audio is on MotoTrbo.

I'm not talking about a high level of security, just a level of difficulty higher than most people are willing to invest.

I have some taxi's that are interested in thwarting the competition with scanners scooping their calls.

Anyone have any knowledge on this?

Buy MotoTRBO radio, program.

Thus, not very secure.

RF_Burns wrote:Just wonder how "secure" the digital audio is on MotoTrbo.

I'm not talking about a high level of security, just a level of difficulty higher than most people are willing to invest.

I have some taxi's that are interested in thwarting the competition with scanners scooping their calls.

Anyone have any knowledge on this?

buy alpha pagers...page out the calls and merely have them use that channel for "ok, i am back available now" type stuff...

tvsjr wrote:Buy MotoTRBO radio, program.

Thus, not very secure.

Exactly, since there's no encryption involved, doing the above will get you TRBO audio. Now, since the format is proprietary, chances are it won't be coming out in any scanners, unlike the open protocol IMBE format.

The person programming the radio would still need the proper time slot( 1 or 2 I know) and group ID before any audio is heard, how many possible group ID's can there be?

wavetar wrote:Now, since the format is proprietary, chances are it won't be coming out in any scanners, unlike the open protocol IMBE format.

Isn't the ETSI standard (ETSI-TS102 361-1) an OPEN standard too?
I agree...buy MOTOTRBO radio, program. Not very secure.

MOTOTRBO = *DROOL*

wavetar wrote:

tvsjr wrote:Buy MotoTRBO radio, program.

Thus, not very secure.

Exactly, since there's no encryption involved, doing the above will get you TRBO audio. Now, since the format is proprietary, chances are it won't be coming out in any scanners, unlike the open protocol IMBE format.

First of all: IMBE is NOT a protocol. IMBE is a vocoder. APCO-25 is a protocol, which as a part of the protocol specifies the use of the IMBE vocoder.

Second of all: IMBE is not an open vocoder - it is proprietary to Digital Voice Systems Inc., and if you want to decode it you pay them big bucks - US$100K if you are licensing it to do APCO-25.

Thus APCO-25 is not an open protocol - while you can get the full specs for the Common Air Interface protocol, actually implementing an APCO-25 radio means paying money to DVSI.

Third of all: MotoTRBO uses ABME, which is the next generation vocoder from DVSI - thus AMBE is ALSO not a protocol, but a vocoder.

Nor is AMBE open - you pay even bigger bucks to DVSI to use it.

Now, you *can* buy chips from DVSI which implement the AMBE and IMBE algorithms without paying the full license fee. However, you are still paying a license fee per chip - it is just baked into the cost of the chip.

thebigphish wrote:

RF_Burns wrote:Just wonder how "secure" the digital audio is on MotoTrbo.

I'm not talking about a high level of security, just a level of difficulty higher than most people are willing to invest.

I have some taxi's that are interested in thwarting the competition with scanners scooping their calls.

Anyone have any knowledge on this?

buy alpha pagers...page out the calls and merely have them use that channel for "ok, i am back available now" type stuff...

And no one can monitor paging.

I say Ø and get done with it.

IMBE + OFB. But then again...most if not all Taxi companies probably cannot afford that.

Rayjk110 wrote:I say Ø and get done with it.

IMBE + OFB. But then again...most if not all Taxi companies probably cannot afford that.

Don't take offense, but get a clue. Using digital for basic two-way comms is like using a chainsaw to open a letter. It's a whole different ballgame when you have to use your own money to buy your radios instead of the taxpayers

Wowbagger wrote:Now, you *can* buy chips from DVSI which implement the AMBE and IMBE algorithms without paying the full license fee. However, you are still paying a license fee per chip - it is just baked into the cost of the chip.

Yep. $25 or so in sample quantities for AMBE2020.

escomm wrote:

Rayjk110 wrote:I say Ø and get done with it.

IMBE + OFB. But then again...most if not all Taxi companies probably cannot afford that.

Don't take offense, but get a clue. Using digital for basic two-way comms is like using a chainsaw to open a letter. It's a whole different ballgame when you have to use your own money to buy your radios instead of the taxpayers

Taxi companies, couriers etc do make use of the MDT style functionality available with MOTOTRBO though, e.g. AVL and text messaging. In fact, I don't know of a taxi company within 200 miles of here that doesn't use MDTs (usually Sigtec or Raywood) on UHF, even the very small 10 car operations.

I'm suprised they (Taxi's) aren't following in the same fashion over here with MDT's. Most communications here are VHF Analog, Duplexed so other Taxi's can't hear eachother; Although I'm sure most cabbies carry a scanner anyways to listen. Which would explain multiple antennas on their vans.

It all comes down to money.

Here the drivers own their own cars and radios. A few guys are partners in the Dispatching Service. The guys pay a fee for each call to the dispatching Service, and keep the rest.

Calls are given in rotation, not who is closest to the call. (mind you the city is only a couple miles across).

These guys are not rich. By the time they pay for gas at over $1.00/litre (Thats about 3.50/gal for you USA guys), and insurance, maintenance etc, there isn't much left.

They buy the cheapest radio and I still have to finance them!

Anyway, just wading through the manuals and I can't put my finger on anything about this.

The main MDT manufacturers/integrators here put together turn-key package solutions that cover everything from telephone IVR bookings to AVL that assigns fares based on the location of the cab, with fairly minimal engineering costs to implement. The systems tend to pay for themselves with savings in dispatcher wages alone over a couple of years, if not sooner.

Otherwise, companies also get together and pay a dispatch bureau to provide the service. Canberra Cabs, the major taxi company in this town, operates such a service called iDispatch in conjunction with Sigtec as a 50:50 joint venture, and at least a few of the smaller companies are also on board.

Given all that, I would say the Mototrbo stuff would give "adequate" security in your situation. The guys jumping thier calls are using scanners in thier cabs, and odds are they are on just as tight a budget, so buying and having a dealer program a Mototrbo radio is most likely not worth the effort for them.

A $50-100 scanner is one thing, and a $750-1000 Mototrbo radio that ONLY hears this one thing is another.

Plus, is the text messaging functionality of these not adressable to a specific unit? If so then they could not intercept that...

All in all, for this purpose, I would say it will be good enough to do what they want.. heck odds are IMBE would be.

W4WTF wrote:All in all, for this purpose, I would say it will be good enough to do what they want.. heck odds are IMBE would be.

Yes, exactly...

And I don't see how buying a TRBO radio and programming it up on a TRBO system is any different than loading an unauthorized radio on a TRS.

Please don't open the TRS can of worms again.

mr.syntrx wrote:Please don't open the TRS can of worms again.

Just felt the need to note that since once of the workarounds was buy a radio and program it up

Last I checked, MotoTRBO didn't require any system keys.

Nothing wrong with buying a TRBO radio and configuring it for receive only. Just like there's nothing wrong with buying an XTS5000 and configuring it for conventional receive-only.

I checked today and it seems you can have close to 170,000 different Group ID's combinations, times that X 2 time slots and it looks like one could potentially have to program the radio 300,000 times in order to listen in.

...or just throw a driver a few bucks and lunch and read one of the radios.

How about plain old voice inversion boards in the current radios?

170,000 Group ID's times 2 time slots = over 300,000 combinations, that should keep them busy.

I never looked to see if the codeplug can be password protected, that should thwart them from reading a radio.

Yes it can be password protected, prompts you for the password before it even reads the radio.

Wonder if that can be cracked like the Pro CPS?

MOTOTRBO encryption/scrambler option is being worked on for end of year release according to Motorola TRBO Product Planner Team.
We had a local Taxi company ask us about security level for privacy a few weeks ago to prevent eavsdroppers and competitor taxi companys snagging thier fares.
Password protection would be a good thing.
I love it when other shops technicians call us to ask for our customer password so they can sell them radios on OUR repeater system after trying to read them for programming infos.
Customer ends up coming to our shop with tail between his legs.
Bad customer! No more special pricing for you! * thwack*
Wayne

I really think that a used (analog) Spectra + DES module would be cheaper and far more secure.

Isn't the current trend towards Nextels? I've heard a fair amount about it, especially the text-messaging abilities.

fogster wrote:I really think that a used (analog) Spectra + DES module would be cheaper and far more secure.

Yes on both counts. However, we're talking about a commercial fleet application, which isn't even the same thing as casual hobbyist use. You have to keep a cache of spare equipment and someone has to know how to service them. Then you have to get everyone on the same algorithm. Then you have to deal with key management, including keeping people's radios loaded. And finally, neither DES nor Spectras are supported by the Big M anymore, so you're 100% reliant on the used market for parts. While that might not be a problem for you and I, it's a big problem for a business that just wants it to work and just wants someone to make it work when it doesn't.

Isn't the current trend towards Nextels? I've heard a fair amount about it, especially the text-messaging abilities.

Problem (well, one of many ;p ) with Nextel is that group connect is so dagblasted expensive. It's almost cheaper in the long run to maintain your own system than pay monthly airtime fees.

I wonder what algo they plan on using with TRBO. AES256 would be tres sexy.

Actually, Motorola is planning on offering basic privacy (16-bit) for the MOTOTRBO radio sometime late this year. It will more than likely be a firmware upgrade

Nextel is going bye bye in 3 years, so that option is out the door. GL HF with Sprint's push to talk, heh heh

Nextel is going bye bye in 3 years

i doubt that the SERVICE will go away - the NAME perhaps.....

batdude wrote:

Nextel is going bye bye in 3 years

i doubt that the SERVICE will go away - the NAME perhaps.....

Unless you're a fed, it is going away.

MotoKevin wrote:Actually, Motorola is planning on offering basic privacy (16-bit) for the MOTOTRBO radio sometime late this year. It will more than likely be a firmware upgrade

In that case, I'll wait a while (a year or so) before I make any MOTOTRBO purchases. Waiting will also give Moto time to find and fix firmware bugs.

Anyone know if MOTOTRBO will go into the lower end of the UHF "T" band. The specs for all the radios say 403 to 470, we have several channels between 470.500 and 470.650. We where able to program radios like the GM300 using the "Shift Key" trick, will this work with MOTOTRBO or are we out of luck?

We did our first MOTOTRBO repeater set up for a local taxi company here in Albany,NY.
It is operating in purely digital mode and we tried to monitor it with trunktracker,another conventional mobile and TRBO (digital)portable programmed with same Freq and PL.Only the TRBO digital port. was able to monitor.I am taking it at that, at this level of security we are good for now.The GPS and Text features are working fine.Dispatch relegates the fares to closest taxi in the area,unless they are full already with passengers.
The Audio is clear and the range is comparable to conventional/analog UHF with some improvement in former problem areas.
Downside,between radio cost and license cost it bring the prices on par with a MSRP CDM1550LS.
Now to find more taxi outfits who are tired of having thier fare calls hijacked.

Wayne

wkr518 wrote: Downside,between radio cost and license cost it bring the prices on par with a MSRP CDM1550LS.
Wayne

Is there anyone that actually pays full MSRP for radios

No! Nextel is not going away in three years. The system will be changing not going away.