Batboard

Hey guys, looking for anyone who may have done this before or has any recommendations on things that would be nice to have now.

Anyone ever been in this boat before and have any ideas? I do have our entire current request in word form for anyone who is really interested.

As in most custom vehicle installs, it is always a pain in the neck
to have to go back later to add additional wires or radio control
cables. Most of the suppliers of these type of vehicles, don't
like to put in any wire race ways. They want you to supple the
cables ahead of time and let them build them into the walls
and ceiling. Once there, they are impossible to get to again.

Don't even think about replacing one of these installed cables
for a new one. Just think about the issues of upgrading a
radio that needs a different remote control cable.

Make sure the power distribution center is in a spot that
will allow you to modify and add wires as needed.

Make sure you have a place to put your radios that will not
have all sorts of equipment piled on top or banging it all
the time. If you need to replace this radio or service it, do
you need a half hour to remove all the junk in front of it.

Don't allow any electrical connections to be open to the
outside weather. No wire splices allowed under the body
in open areas. This is important in regions where salt
is used on the roads. Have seen first line fire trucks taken
out of service at fires due to bad or intermittent electrical
connections under the body.

For the most part, much of the electrical specs are mandated
by the feds. You just need to make sure that you get what
you think you asked for. One of the items that many agencies
forget about is a high idle kit. This should be voltage driven
and not just at the whim of the operator. This way if your
at a scene and the engine is just at an idle, the electrical
load doesn't drain the battery. It will kick up the engine
RPM to allow charging and hold the battery voltage. There
are some smart systems that will start shedding the
electrical load in a set manner. These work neat and do
keep the electrical system under control.

Look at using the new LED light bars rather than the older
style using quartz bulbs or the like. the curent drain is much
less and they don't generate as much heat. The LED bars
may cost a little more, but you won't be spending so much
time replacing bulbs and melted lenses.

Make sure the alternator is large enough for your electrical
load and then some. You need some extra capacity to
recharge your batteries if you manage to run them down.
Don't forget to include the normal vehicle load in your
total currnet requirements. This includes the headlights
on high beam, the windshield wipeers going, the heater
or air conditioner on high, all your warning lights and the
engine at an idle.

You should get a battery disconnect switch included to
be able to disconnect the batteries. This should be part
of a normal package. There probably will be a 4 position
rotary switch. Off is the first position, next will be battery
one, then next will be battery two and the last position
is both batteries. This position should only be used if
one battery won't start the engine. It is not a good idea
to have both batteries tied together.

There should be a diode isolater that provides charging
to both batteries when the engine is running. It's purpose
is to isolate the load so that both batteries don't get
discharged at the same time. Use one battery to normally
operate the vehicle and the other one as a reserve to
start the engine if you run the first one down by accident.
like the engine stalled and the electrical load was left on.

Don't forget to keep in mind the antennas that have to
be on the roof. You should have access to the mounting
location from inside. This will allow replacing an antenna
mount if it gets damaged. It will also provide a means to
add antennas in the future.

There is nothing more frustrating than to have to add an
antenna to the roof of one of these vehicles and there is
no way to get at it or run any new antenna cables. Just
trying to service a damaged antenna mount can take a full
day in some cases. Make your life a little simpler and
make the vendor provide a means to get to these cables
and mounting locations.

Could go on for pages, but this might give some food for
thought. Most of the companies should try and work with
you on these concerns. Many of the companies are
changing the ways they build these units. They have
had to go back and fix some of their old designs.

Jim

EOppegaard wrote:Hey guys, looking for anyone who may have done this before or has any recommendations on things that would be nice to have now.

Anyone ever been in this boat before and have any ideas? I do have our entire current request in word form for anyone who is really interested. :lol:

Going through the same thing right now. Read Jim202's reply carefully, there is some very useful information in there. This was my first time as well, and I have learned a great deal from other Dept's in my area.

First, measure all your bags, jumpkits, equip etc that you keep in your current rig. Next decide where you are going to put it all in your new one. From there, you can design it around that, making sure all your compartments are large enough etc.

Get a committee together (doesn't have to be huge, mine was 3 guys) and make a list of pros and cons of your current rig. What do you want on the next one that you dont have now?

Contact dealers/manufactures. Have them come out and show you a demo rig. I think I had 5 or 6 come to our station. Look at the build quality and the features. Drive the rig, around town, on the side streets, the dirt roads, get the feel for it. Drive the different chassis' (Ford, GM etc) decide which one you like best. Keep in mind if you are going Type III Ford E-series, Ford is in a MAJOR dispute with thier manufacture of the Power Stroke Diesel (there is a chance my next rig is going to be gas). We have no choice other than Ford, due to a height restriction in our bay.

Once you think you have found a manufacture you like, ask for a list of depts in your area they have sold to. Drive out to those cities/towns and look at thier rigs. Also, ask them how the service is/was from the certain dealer.

Think everyday function over how it will look on parade day. Make sure your rig is going to work the way you want it to, and not just "Look Good" on parade day. A lot of the shiny products you see on rigs today cost $$$ (electronic tinted windows, almost $3000). LED's are a must. I have spec'd all LED's on ours and it cost approx. $2000 more than the strobes, but we will save that in the long run.

**Remeber, a lot of ambulances these days are run by a multiplex system (fancy name for a computer) and a lot of them are junk (our American LaFrance is about to go out the window) Some manufactures will still sell you plain old switches, some modified, push the buttons and ask questions. See which ones work for you.

Again, I could go on all day as well with this subject. If you have any questions, please feel free to send me a message as I would be more than happy to help.

Educate yourselves on the chassis issue with Ford through your ambulance dealer, or through a Ford dealer.

Are you sure the only thing with that will fit is a Ford? What headroom are you using? (68 or 72"?) A Chevrolet 4500HD in 2 wheel drive with 68"headroom is only 1 inch taller than our 4X4 F450 ambulance with the same height.

Many ambulance prep-package chassis suppliers do not authorize a battery disconnect switch anymore. This is true with ford. Ford grew tired of upfitters hacking into their electrical systems when the Power Stroke came out. This is also when the factory Ford idle control was introduced.

Multiplex electrical systems SUCK! PERIOD. My Braun at the volly station has the Weldon V-Mux, and as the schlep that gets to fix it when something goes wrong, I want to put an axe though the bloody screen. Overly complicated and useless. PL Custom introduced the Power Logix system, and basically, the electrics are the same relay/breaker wiring, but a spiffed-up control panel. That I can deal with.

LifeLine uses a TST system, and it functions very well. My career company just ordered their third LifeLine on the Chevy 4500hd chassis. We omitted the lightbar in favor of all Whelen 900 series Super LEDs. We also Spec'd the Federal Rumbler system. This ought to be interesting, as it's essentially a loud subwoofer for a siren!

Nix on the LCD windows. $1000.00 each is a touch much. Plus, the don't function well in colder climates.

Random ramblings, I know, but if I can help anyone with industry informationin their decision process, please PM or email. [email protected].

Also, a link to a thread on another board.....
http://www.chesterfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3820

Ambulanceguy, a salesman for the past 28 years posted some interesting and accurate info on chassis availability from Ford.

as fire surgeon, medical director EMS for a municipal fire dept (3 ambulances and a 4-wheel drive bariatric rig), and as a practicing paramedic and firefighter, we have come across some great ideas that did not pan out. The LCD touch screens were installed in the cab and the patient compartment. A royal PITA. DId not work a lot of the time, were replaced several times, and looks good but does not hold up after heavy use. Curb side exterior compartments make accessing defib and jump kits much easier. Make sure you have arranged the compartments so that the people who use the rig like the setup. Make sure the narcotics safe is not too complicated - ours were programmed with software which after it was lost, could not be replaced, so we had to replace all the safes. Try to elimenate as many strobes and halogens and rotators as you can - I like to mix the warning signals up, but you pretty much can't beat LEDs nowadays - 100, 000 hours life, low amp draw, and a lot of warning power.
Let the people who will use the equipment have a major say in how it is designed. DO NOT buy a chassis that won't hold the weight of the box AND the gear and personnel. Otherwise you will get poor handeling and you will go thru brakes like crazy! Look into the new KKK specifications, and really consider tethers and/or helmets for personnel working in the back. This is the wave of the future. Look into a patient compartment that is arranged so as to have the crew seated and belted (or tethered) and still have access to all critical equipment. Some of these designs seem bizarre, but enough EMS personnel have been injured or killed delivering care to make these innovations a must.
Lastly, you are always going to find that after the rig is built, there will be things that you would do differently in the next rig - make these adjustments over time, and you will have a rig to be proud of, and is distinctly "yours" or the organizations, at least!
Hope this helps, and feel free to contact me with any other questions - I have been in EMS for almost thirty years now.
DJH

Do this:

Call up all the local reps whose product you are interested in, and have them all show up with their demo rigs at the same time and have your members (with pens/paper) do walkthru's and submit comments to the vehicle committee.

We did this a couple of times and it works out very well. Less complaints, more thoughts, and the reps had a good time talking with each other.

One big consideration that I haven't heard yet:

Is this going to be an addition to an existing fleet, a replacement within a fleet, or a replacement within a single-unit agency?

I ask this because useability and training may be an issue for your personnel. My squad now runs a fleet of four Brauns. The newest unit has a completely different cabinet and door configurations than our other three. It tends to make that code go a little more difficult when you have to stop for a minute and think "which truck am I on, and where is that GD BVM!?"

At least I got them to buy a W9 XTL5000 and I programmed it to act identical to the legacy A9 Spectras. The truck before this one got a model 2 MCS and the shop didn't know how to program it.

My agency just got a new rig last week and I had the dubious distinction to add a dual head radio and a scanner to the truck. To expand on what Jim202 has to say... a few things to keep in mind.

Ford is no longer going to be supplying E350/E450 chassis anymore. If you order now chances are that you will get either a Type2 truck front or a van from another automaker.

When you order the truck, make sure that they will include power and antenna cabling... they will generally put something under either of the front seats for you for that. Sometimes both... and it should not cost you extra. If they try and charge you for it tell them to stick it. Any reputable ambulance manufacturer will do that for nothing. They supplied us with our new truck with an 8AWG line under each seat and 6 (yes six) runs of RG58. 4 to the roof and 2 in the engine compartment for fender mounts.

Compartment space... MEASURE YOUR EQUIPMENT!! If you have one of those fancy yellow "rugged" stairchairs... make sure it will fit. You should be able to see a demo of what the company is offering for sale, use those compartments as a starting point and figure out where you would want to put stuff and make sure it will fit. My squad made the mistake of having a roll-out tray on the passenger side of the ambulance for our standard Ferno Stairchair. By putting that there over the wheel well it raised the benchseat off the floor another 8 inches. I am 6 foot 1... and I couldn't even touch the floor when sitting on that bench. Also... the nifty oxygen tank lifters for the large M cylinders... they are really nice and all... but take up a lot of space and are prone for breaking... often.

Electrical systems, lights and other "toys". My biggest pet peeve is when agencies put every dam light imaginable on a truck. sometimes simple is better. LEDs are nice... but if money is an issue... that money is better spent on other features that you may need in the ambulance. Like a new stretcher, for example. Look at what you may honestly need... and evaluate from there. All of our trucks have basic striping and lettering, basic lighting... this way we can spend money on other things that we "need". Top of the line cardiac monitors, newer/better suction units, portable radios for the rig for crew members... you get the idea. All the pretty blinky lights are nice for parades, but do nothing when you go overboard besides make you more of a problem. (Yes there are studies that prove that you can have too many lights, take PJ's truck for example... j/k dude).

Lastly... don't let salesmen try and tell you that their construction methods are safer than their competitors. They all use the same or very similar construction methods. If you have a high speed accident chances are the people in the back are going to be seriously injured or DEAD regardless of how the ambulance is constructed. Providers in the back don't normally wear their seatbelts (my opinion is if they are... they aren't doing their jobs properly). Look at the ambulance accident that happen on Long Island last year or the year before... they open like a sardine can and is not fun.

When they set up the contract for purchase... make sure that there is an "inspection period" in the contract for when they deliver the unit. We have ours set for 2 weeks. If we find problems, construction flaws, missing features, etc... the manufacturer has to fix it, or build a whole new truck... on them. We drop $80k each time on an ambulance... it better be right, and if not we do not accept until it is. And we get away pretty cheap on our rigs too.

In the end (and my opinion)... AEV and McCoy Miller make decent ambulances as far as quality, MedTec (if they still exist) is also decent. If you want to get ripped off and then humped without lube... buy a Braun. Horton used to be known for all sorts of electrical issues (5 different ambulance fires from where I grew up, all different years... all electrical in nature).

Definitely follow PJ's suggestion.. get people involved in looking and putting in their ideas. But make sure you keep a reign on it... otherwise your bench seat will sit an extra 6-8 inches higher than normal.



That is what all of our ambulances look like. Simple, basic, yet effective. Oh yeah... and it'll transport a patient to the hospital too.

Is bill lewis upset that he can't order the ambulance as hybrid and then glue the radios to the dash like the medic truck?

Not too much else I can add. Running the RG58 cable is pretty much standard. If you use a free-standing radio (hospital radio) in the patient compartment, make sure they run at least 1 RG58 cable to the switch area near the airway seat. If you use dual control heads on one radio, see if some type of wire chase can be installed at the factory to facilitate installation of that unit.

We added diagonal scotchlite striping on the rear doors to aid in preventing rear end collisions, especially when the truck is parked in the roadway. Not really expensive but REALLY effective! We also got away from the "Edge" style light bars because of water leakage and maintenance issues in previous trucks.

The truck pictured below is one of the new Chevrolet units (modified by McCoy Miller) and we are using all strobes. The rear uses two red and three amber strobes (red/amber/red at the top, then two amber strobes about halfway down the truck) and we have red/clear split lenses in the grill and midship on each side of the truck. It's bright and very visible but not too much.

All our trucks have a backup siren, which is usually a cheap-and-dirty "wail/yelp" toggle switch arrangement wired to a separate grille speaker. For $300, this will save your butt if you blow a speaker or burn up the regular siren. The truck doesn't have to be taken out of service while you're waiting on parts.

We recently switched to the new Stryker electric cots and deluxe stair chairs. An excellent investment, especially with our many access problems (older houses, dormitories, high rise buildings, etc.) and high run volume. I would recommend these units to anyone without reservation.




- Rick

w8cmi wrote:We also got away from the "Edge" style light bars because of water leakage and maintenance issues in previous trucks.

Can't pressure wash them dude!

Seriously, I got called a few times to figure out why the 4500 bar on a couple of ambulances had water problems. After a few times, I noticed something...

IT DID NOT RAIN FOR TWO WEEKS!

So, one day on shift...on of the guys went out to wash the rig...with a pressure washer. Now, normally its not a bid deal, but when you are directing the spray at the bar with not a lot of room between the nozzel and the plastic, bad things tend to happen!

Thats where I have found most of the leakage problems to be from. However, every once in awhile you do get a weak gasket or two or something that hasn't been screwed back together properly.

Hosed my Edge with pressure washer and no problems in years.

On the Jeffersonville truck, I love the Per-Lux fog lights! Classic!

MK4412 wrote:Hosed my Edge with pressure washer and no problems in years.

On the Jeffersonville truck, I love the Per-Lux fog lights! Classic!

Best Fog Lights we've owned. I dare say that we have them on all 3 ambulances... but I think my brain is fried right now. So I am not sure.

MK4412 wrote:Hosed my Edge with pressure washer and no problems in years.

Whelen wrote:Use only soap and water to clean the outer lens. Use of other chemicals could result in premature lens cracking (crazing) and discoloration. Lenses in this condition have significantly reduced effectiveness and should be replaced immediately. Inspect and operate this product regularly to confirm its proper operation and mounting condition. Do not use a pressure washer to clean this product.

I bet if you take the lenses off, you will see a bunch of water marks on the reflectors. The problem arises when you get the chemical fallout and other enviromental goodies in at the strobe contacts. Not as much of a problem with the newer lightheads as they are a one piece design now, but still..

EOppegaard wrote:Hey guys, looking for anyone who may have done this before or has any recommendations on things that would be nice to have now.

Anyone ever been in this boat before and have any ideas? I do have our entire current request in word form for anyone who is really interested.

I wouldn't ordinarily contribute to something like this since I'm not an ambulance person, but looking out the window the other day, I saw a Dodge Sprinter van that had been upfitted into an ambulance. I don't know if that's cost effective, but it was a clean upfit.

I have seen the Sprinter conversions. Very comfortable and a lot roomier than the Ford counterparts. Which brings me to the next point...

Ford is no longer offering the diesel engine for the E Series van/ambulance bodies because of problems they are having with International (who provides the diesel engine for Ford). You'll either have to get a gas engine (suckage, no power, no torque, more problems) or go with a Type 2 truck front or use a Chevy or Dodge van cutaway.

JAYMZ wrote:Ford is no longer offering the diesel engine for the E Series van/ambulance bodies because of problems they are having with International (who provides the diesel engine for Ford). You'll either have to get a gas engine (suckage, no power, no torque, more problems) or go with a Type 2 truck front or use a Chevy or Dodge van cutaway.

Hmm...navistar's engines over heat in the cramped E series chassis...Ford blames navistar, says your engine over heats too much....navistar says it's your chassis, because that engine doesn't overheat in other setups...hmmm...someone needs to make that front end of that E series chassis breathe a little betterFORD ARE YOU LISTENING?. We are currently delaying a purchase of a vehicle until the cranial-rectal impaction is taken care of.

I will not even entertain the option of an F series Type 2 bus, or a Kodiak line setup, or that top-heavy sprinter thing that i saw out in New York last week.

Come on Ford, grow up.

Phish - you better forget about any new boxes for several years, then. Ford's problem won't be fixed any time soon... they can't option another diesel due to contract issues, and reengineering the body is multiple years of work.

A Ford truck chassis really isn't that bad.

tvsjr wrote:Phish - you better forget about any new boxes for several years, then. Ford's problem won't be fixed any time soon... they can't option another diesel due to contract issues, and reengineering the body is multiple years of work.

A Ford truck chassis really isn't that bad.

We already did. I know all the "we're not paying" issues are going to tie things up for a while.

and tvsjr, you are right...the truck chassis really isn't that bad, but for us it's not really that good. I don't want to have to install an airdump to get the rear step down to spec height, i don't like ride in the half dozen F series i have been in (which included 1 service unanimously stating that their 2000 International rode better), and i am kind of opposed to that big ol' F nose out in front, we will be paying for repairs to the chassis out the nose with some of our people in this area, and our drivers. It's all semantics, i understand....so we are kind of stuck. I have no problem waiting, i just hope our rigs do.

See if the upfitter can do removable interior panels for service access. Centralised electrical points are also a good idea. This is one of my local trucks, not sure what the story is with half of the lights as they never seem to use them when it's on a run.

I've been in VW Transporters and Merc Sprinter during fast trips back to hospital a few times, and they don't have much body roll at all, even around sharp bends - even though they look top heavy, they're far from it. Top heaviness doesn't seem to be much of a problem. Top heaviness on the now long gone (thankfully) F-series and GMC based ambulances used here was a HUGE problem, though, and more than a few ended up on their roofs.

The E series is not "going away". There's the possibility in the 2008 model, which will be a totally redesigned chassis, that the older 6.0 diesel will be ressurected.

Chevy 4500. Nuff said. Unfortunately, there isn't the production capability at Chevy to meet the damand, as yet.

Maintain your existing fleet well. Take no PM shortcuts. Keep in contact with your dealers, and let's see how this pans out. The chassis burp with Ford might send a ripple through the industry, but I think Ford will make the changes neccessary to fix the problem.

We have one of the new Sprinter vans as our new Comm van. Right after the SO took delivery of it they took it out on the EVOC course, and put it through its paces. It handled very well according to the EVOC staff. They even put it through the J-turn at 35mph, and the thing barely leant at all. Not too shabby.

Mercedes engineering at work!

I might add that the Sprinter pictured is factory prepped for Ambulance work, lowered suspension, fat sway bars and rear airbags. I've personally been in one at speeds up to 170km/h, we ran out of road! And by all accounts the new model is a lot better!

I don't knock anything till I try it. I'd love to seriously thrash a Sprinter and see what it can really do. I have heard nightmares, as well as love stories. I hope Ford can fix it's issues, but I understand nothing is forever.

Sprinter in a J-turn? I'm there!!!

One seemingly small thing to keep very close track of, is the kind of antenna mount used; if the wall/roof that an NMO mount or whatever is installed in, is too thick, you may have problems when you put the antenna on. Poor/intermittent contact, no contact, then you take the antenna off, look at it, 'looks good, dude!' then put it back on. Try again. yada, yada,....

And spec GOOD antenna cable from the mounts to the radio mounting positions; none of that Rat-shack or equivalent junk!!!

Chuk
kb4mdz

Cupholders and a Stryker power hydraulic litter
Happy EMTs = Happy patients

Measure and design all your compartments out in advance and anticipate for the future.

if you're really looking for ideas on safety - look at

http://www.objectivesafety.net/index.html