XTS 5000 Transceiver board

[misawatech]

I need to replace a few tansceiver boards but when I do the radio fails the self test. The old boards were NLD 8910 and the new are MNLD8910H. I've been searching the board for a solution but I may be the only one with this problem. Some of the people here are very rough with the radios so I am probably repairing/replacing sooner than most of you. Anyway, the old boards were not putting out any RF power. I tried making adjustments using the tuner software but came to the conclusion that the boards are no good. I had my people order new boards and received the MNLD8910H boards. If I try to put these boards in a 320CDN radio they fail the self test. If I use them in a 320CGX radio they work just fine. This leads me to believe there is going to be an upgrade needed.

I was hoping to get some insight from you experts. I also opened a case with Motorola. Any ideas??

[misawatech]

Just wanted to give you an update. I am discussing this issue with Motorola now but it seems like they want me to return the radios to depot for repairs. They do say it seems to be a firmware issue, the new boards won't work with the older radios, but feel it best I return them to depot.

I asked if there would be any charge as these are fairly new 5000s. The answer I received was to put the old boards back in the radio and send them to depot for repair. The person I am talking to stated he was not sure what the total charge would be.

I question why there would be a charge for a problem that is a manufacturers defect. I would think the firmware would be free as it is with their new display modules for the 3000. I am still working the issue and will let you know more as time goes on.

[dirtrat]

If you put back the original RF boards and send them to Motorola they will most likely charge you a flat rate charge and repair the radios. this seems to be a very common answer for Motorola when there tech support can't help you figure out the problem within 10 minutes on the phone. The issue with the XTS-3000's was a little different. They had to source a new LCD that was not compatible with the radios firmware so when you ordered a LCD they would send you the flashport software and key to make it work. I searched and could not find any FSB issued by Motorola for this problem. I have replaced approximately 450 G version (UHF Range 1) RF boards for one of our customers and they never had any problems. Also be aware that if you put in a new RF board the radio will have to be completely realigned. You will have to adjust RF power, Reference Oscillator, Mod Comp and deviation limit. You will also need to Vacuum test the radio when its put back togather to check for bad seals and leaks. I don't know where you got the new Transciever boards but I don't see how it would be possible for you to purchase it cheaper than the Depots flat rate charge. Unless you are an authorized repair facility I would let Motorola do this work. For the flat rate they will do all of the above and flash them to the latest firmware. To give you any more advice I would need more information.

Just wanted to give you an update. I am discussing this issue with Motorola now but it seems like they want me to return the radios to depot for repairs. They do say it seems to be a firmware issue, the new boards won't work with the older radios, but feel it best I return them to depot.

I asked if there would be any charge as these are fairly new 5000s. The answer I received was to put the old boards back in the radio and send them to depot for repair. The person I am talking to stated he was not sure what the total charge would be.

I question why there would be a charge for a problem that is a manufacturers defect. I would think the firmware would be free as it is with their new display modules for the 3000. I am still working the issue and will let you know more as time goes on.

[misawatech]

I guess we can be considered a authorized repair facility. We/I am the PWCS contractor for Misawa AB Japan. We have an account with Moto and ordered the boards directly from them. And I do know that the radio must be realigned when changing the board. Every radio I work on is realigned even if it just needs knob replacement. That is the agreement between us and the military.

I'm not looking for Motorola to charge us for the repairs. It should be something as simple as replacing the board and realigning the radio. Especially since my contact stated it is not a defect with my work or beyond my capability. He just says that there seems to be a problem with these radios and the newer rf boards. And it may only be with the VHF boards as most people are in the UHF arena. It seems to me the Display issue on the 3000s was also with their new display and not just the aftermarket one. I would have to read the FSB again but I thought it sad theirs was not available yet, due to the issues, but they can sell this one with the firmware upgrade. This is exactly my point with the new RF boards. Why, if it is just a firmware upgrade, can they not send it to me and let me finish the repairs?

You have to understand that the people here are not as protective of their radios as you may be. I see alot of these needing these repairs and would like to be set up to make them and get the radio back out in a few days. The cost is not an issue with me as everything I purchase comes out of the contract amount. I've had radios come in with the side buttons torn off, the displays smashed, and even a few just run over by a vehicle. These have all been within the first year or two of the user receiving the radio. One user just lost a brand new, within 6 months, 5000 because they dropped it in water and left it there for some time. When they realized this they didn't turn it in for repairs...They turned it on and tried to use it!!! They said "It worked for a little while" but then wouldn't turn on. DUH!!!!

Anyway I am just putting this out there for anyone who may have a similar issue. There is no FSB yet as there is probably not enough of these to warrant one. I only have 2 so far but look at the issue with the cases and the poor solder joints. Some worked for awhile and others failed pretty quickly. As I get time I will post the emails from Motorola. Maybe that will explain a little more.

[akardam]

Well, I think you're on the right track there. You may just need to be persistent with Motorola. I know that's like saying to the mouse to be persistent with the elephant, but there you are.

You could try bumping the firmware on one of the older radios yourself and then see if that solves the problem. If not that, then if you haven't already checked, see if the newer radios have a newer vocon than the older radios.

Sending them off to the depot will likely get the problem fixed but they may never tell you what it is. If it really is just a firmware refresh issue, then you could have Motorola send you a refresh key with a batch on it and just handle the fix in-house.

Please keep us updated on your efforts. This is good info.

[jmr061]

Just curious what is the host version in the them now?

Jason

[misawatech]

I have 2 radios with this issue. The info is below. I also just searched the MOL site and can't seem to find any replacement for the vocoder boards I have. I'm sure there are but I guess I will have to contact Moto to find out which part number to use. Both radios have the same info other than the serial number

320CDN3737 and 320CDN3768
H18KEC9PW5AN
FW R02.50.20
DSP R02.50.00
FL 140001-000000-3

I do have a newer radio with a newer Vocon but it is also a Model III so the test may not be a perfect match. I did try the board and it worked so I am going to assume the same result with a mod I. That's why I believe it is a firmware issue. I will check with my military counterparts and see if they have a spare Mod I with a newer board.

[misawatech]

Below is the email traffic with Moto.

Me
My question concerned the XTS 5000 and the new RF boards. I am at home now so don't have all the information available but the main question is this - Do the XTS 5000 radios require a firmware upgrade to use the newer RF boards? If not then why can I use them in a radio with newer firmware but not in the ones I need to repair? I've also replaced the bad board with a known good board, but older version, and the radio works fine.

Is there an issue with the new rf boards and the xts 5000?

Moto
The problem you are seeing does appear to be firmware related. There is memory on the rf board that helps store the tuning data and if this is much newer than the firmware of the controller board the radio gets confused. That is why the older board will go into the older radio.

Me
So how do we make the new boards work with the old radio/firmware? Do I need to provide you the flash, DSP, Host, and model info?

Moto
I'm checking on that, I will let you know

Moto
I have been in touch with the federal group to see about getting the firmware, The need to know who you work for in the military,(the group that ordered the radios). They will also need to know how many radios you are having trouble with, I believe you said 5 but I wanted to make sure.

Me
Right now I only have 2 that need repairs. I ordered 5 new boards but ordered some for shop stock and was thinking I already used them.

The serial numbers are 320cdn3768 and 320cdn3737. Both models numbers are H18KEC9PW5AN and the flash for both is 140001-000000-3. If you need host/dsp I can read the radios later today and get that for you I hope because the radios do not pass the self test.

The radios were purchased by Misawa AB Japan. I am the contractor for them. The group name would be 35 CS/SCMRL. My Company is ENC Federal.

Moto
I have been in contact with engineering, and they suggest sending the units to your regional federal depot, they will have the tools to fix your problem.
Please let me know if this is possible, but the product engineers did state this is the best way to fix your issue.


This is all I have at work. I do have another message at home and will post that later. That is where they talk about sending the units to depot instead of letting me upgrade the firmware.

[spectragod]

You really have to be firm with them, about you upgrading your own FW, I thought I was going to have to fight for the FW bumps we got. Stand your ground, FW bumps are usually $75 per radio.

SG

[akardam]

You really have to be firm with them, about you upgrading your own FW, I thought I was going to have to fight for the FW bumps we got. Stand your ground, FW bumps are usually $75 per radio.

SG

I'll second this strongly. They really should be covering this under warranty, anyway, just like they did with the XTS3k displays. If you have a factory XTS5k programming cable (which I presume you do), either Serial or USB, you've already got the tools you need to refresh the firmware, all you'll need is the refresh key and you're good to go. Saves having to send a radio off to the depot every single time you replace a RF board.

[dirtrat]

By authorized service center I mean are you a MSS. If you don't know then I would assume you are not especially if you are replacing entire RF boards (EXPENSIVE) for no power out problems instead of troubleshooting the boards or even sending the radio in for a flat rate repair which would be cheaper than buying a XTS-5000 RF boards. Since I am retired military and used to work in a PWCS shop, (I was ground radio for 20 years) I understand your lingo. The Federal Depot is much better to deal with and you should get much better service from them. My advice is if they are not helpful then its time to get the customer involved in helping you. They may have better luck then you considering the amount of money they spend with Motorola. It appears you have very old firmware in your radios and this very well may be the problem. It may just take a simple refresh flash to gte you working again. Good luck!

I guess we can be considered a authorized repair facility. We/I am the PWCS contractor for Misawa AB Japan. We have an account with Moto and ordered the boards directly from them. And I do know that the radio must be realigned when changing the board. Every radio I work on is realigned even if it just needs knob replacement. That is the agreement between us and the military.

I'm not looking for Motorola to charge us for the repairs. It should be something as simple as replacing the board and realigning the radio. Especially since my contact stated it is not a defect with my work or beyond my capability. He just says that there seems to be a problem with these radios and the newer rf boards. And it may only be with the VHF boards as most people are in the UHF arena. It seems to me the Display issue on the 3000s was also with their new display and not just the aftermarket one. I would have to read the FSB again but I thought it sad theirs was not available yet, due to the issues, but they can sell this one with the firmware upgrade. This is exactly my point with the new RF boards. Why, if it is just a firmware upgrade, can they not send it to me and let me finish the repairs?

You have to understand that the people here are not as protective of their radios as you may be. I see alot of these needing these repairs and would like to be set up to make them and get the radio back out in a few days. The cost is not an issue with me as everything I purchase comes out of the contract amount. I've had radios come in with the side buttons torn off, the displays smashed, and even a few just run over by a vehicle. These have all been within the first year or two of the user receiving the radio. One user just lost a brand new, within 6 months, 5000 because they dropped it in water and left it there for some time. When they realized this they didn't turn it in for repairs...They turned it on and tried to use it!!! They said "It worked for a little while" but then wouldn't turn on. DUH!!!!

Anyway I am just putting this out there for anyone who may have a similar issue. There is no FSB yet as there is probably not enough of these to warrant one. I only have 2 so far but look at the issue with the cases and the poor solder joints. Some worked for awhile and others failed pretty quickly. As I get time I will post the emails from Motorola. Maybe that will explain a little more.

[misawatech]

I am not an MSS. I wish I was but they lost this contract to us so I am glad to get any help I can from them. Making repairs to the boards would be an option but time consuming. Without going into too many details I am a one man shop and have an overwhelming amount of work. Even at that I am limited to the amount they want to spend per month/year so some equipment purchases, for board repair, are not warranted. I also have to balance my time so that I am able to complete enough work to make the company happy. Bottom line is there is nothing in the contract specifying I need to go to component level so I am not spending the time to do so and they are not concerned with the board costs.

Here are the last emails from Moto

Me
Will the repairs be free of charge? I would think so since this is a fairly new radio and the issues seem to be a firmware problem.

What other option is there. If this will be a problem in other radios then it might be cost effective for us to obtain the tools if we do not have them already. I can safely say that we have a large quantity of this serial class and model. IF we can make repairs locally that would be the best option for us so that the radios are not out of service for an extended period.

MOTO
I'm not sure what the repair charges will be, with the serial numbers you gave me the radios are several years old. And I am also not sure what kind of contract if any you would have with Motorola.
The firmware for the xts5000 radios is ordered on a radio by radio basis through your sales Rep.
I am not sure the problem you were having that the transceiver needed changed, but I would suggested returning the boards for credit and sending the units for repair. Because the firmware updater is nothing that can be emailed out, it is a purchased Item.

Me
I did and I am sorry for not replying but I have been busy. I have also been trying to grasp why we would have to pay for the firmware upgrade as it is no fault of ours. I glanced at our previous emails and don't see if I ever mentioned who I am. I am the radio contractor for Misawa so I am here to make repairs if the equipment and parts are available. If this is just a firmware upgrade, similar to the LCD modules, then I would prefer it is done locally. If that means I have to contact you for every individual radio then so be it. I still believe it will be less down time for the radio than if I have to send it in. That is why I am here anyway and if I start sending radios in to you then they might wonder what I am doing here? I'm sure I will still have multiple base and mobile installs and relocations though.

I only have 2 radios at this time. What are the details of the repair? What would I need to make them work? If we require additional equipment we can make the purchase. What information would you need for the firmware upgrades? If I cannot make the repairs then I would send them in but you already stated that the best way to get them repaired is to send them to depot. That leads me to believe that I can make the repairs here, with additional equipment or material, and that is my best option. If you are now saying that I cannot make the repairs and they "must" be sent to depot then I have no choice.

It seems to me they are saying that yes I can make the repairs via a firmware update but they would prefer I send the radios to them so they can charge me. Since it is only 2 radios, and one of them is a spare, I am going to hold my ground.

Thanks for all your input

[dirtrat]

It's too bad there aren't any recent SRN's or FSB's for the XTS-5000 that require a flash, that way you would have got one for free. I checked all of them and they have since expired. If you are sure it is a firmware problem you could always buy the refresh flash from Motorola and flash it yourself. Depending on your professional relationship with Motorola you would be charged somewhere between $75-$200. Host 2.XX firmware is VERY old, I think they are over 10.XX now for the XTS-5000. If the previous MSS that had the account would have been on top of things they would have flashed those long ago under one of a few SRN's. I don't really have any other advice since I really don't know your situation but one of the local military bases we service has lots of pull with Motorola due to the amount of business they give them. Do you not have a good working relationship with the person in charge of PWCS so that maybe you could get him involved? He needs to make a call to his Motorola Sales rep to see if he can help you. Also instead of talking to regular tech support have you tried contacting the Federal Depot? Thats about all of the advice I can give you right now. Good luck and I hope you get it solved.

[misawatech]

I just sent a reply to their last emails. I asked if the upgrade would be free of charge for this issue. I'm not holding my breath and will be looking into the purchase of the upgrades.

I have a good relationship with the PWCS manager but they are also overwhelmed with other PWCS business as well as their military commitments. I've also had some contact with their Moto rep and try to handle everything first hand. This saves time as the questions the rep might have I can answer directly instead of having PWCS pass them back and forth. Of course I do keep them informed about what is happening.

[misawatech]

Just an update on this issue. I am currently filling out the application for 2 firmware upgrades. They did hesitate at letting me do this but, as someone stated earlier, I just kept pushing. We have a group, almost 600, of these in all 3 model types. I wish I could spend the time making the board repairs but replacing the board is my best solution. In the future I may end up sending the units in to depot but I've heard that that is not always the best option.

There has been no discussion of cost. When I send the forms back I will make it a point to ask if there is a cost or if these will be free.

[misawatech]

Received my flashes this week and was able to get the 2 problem radios up and running. I did not have to pay for the flashes. I did have to supply the pertinent information and it did take some time for them to decide to send them but all in all it was painless.

I did a quick search of the site and do not see any bulletins referencing this issue. Maybe I just had a couple of bad radios but I am glad I checked into this before I threw away my questionable rf boards I received from one of our other locations.

I can't say whether you will have the same results if you run into this issue but at least you are all aware of a potential problem.