New 09 Control Head!

[ASTROMODAT]

OK, the 03-HHCH and 05 heads are extremely nice compared to their old counterparts (e.g., W3 and W5). But, we keep hearing strong rumors about an 09 head, that is supposedly not far around the bend (it will be an optional APX head). We are hearing it will be a very large LCD display, about 7 inches diagonal of actual LCD display, with push buttons (soft keys) going all the way around all four sides of the frame. We've also heard it will not be backwards compatible with the XTL5000 (Darn!!!).

Does anyone else have any information on this, perhaps JPEG's, etc.?

Thanks!

[Victor Xray]

[ASTROMODAT]

Holy Cow! If the real thing is even half as good as this...

Wow!!!!!!

P.S. - I be that option will cost a few bucks!

[Jason]

You can probably go with the real thing being very close to this. They missed the boat though.. the whole works should have been touchscreen!.

[ASTROMODAT]

I can see it now...

Allan Mulally will ensure that FoMoCo is saved by keeping the venerable Crown Vic alive for another 20 years, with the Police Package Option including an APX factory installed in the trunk, and an integrated 09 in the factory dash! Obama may even throw in a few more $Billion to Ford if they make the Crown Vic a hybrid!

If nothing else, Hams from all around will be lining up to order such a Crown Vic---it could even rejuvenate Ham Radio!

Now, only if Allan would get with MOBAT and add an integrated Micom 3T!!

[spectragod]

As long as you can get it FPP, I'm there..

[kd5hqf]

+1 on the FPP! And Hitting the Lotto to be Able to Afford It!

[Elroy Jetson]

I've been saying for years that GM (or Ford, or any company that wants the police/fleet vehicle market) should work with the major public safety radio vendors
(Motorola and what's now Harris) to pre-build the cars so that equipment installation for fleet users is dead simple, plug and play. Create standardized
data/power cables that everyone agrees to use, whether by providing native support on the radios and control heads or with adapters, run them from
front to rear in the body of the vehicle, provide standard mounting spots and bolt patterns for the equipment, and provide standard places for standardized
control head packages. Turn the radio installation (or removal) into a five minute job. The cable's already there, just pop out the removable cover in the
dash, connect the cable to the control head, snap the control head in, pull up the trunk carpet, slide the radio in place and attach the connectors, and you're done.

Elroy

[Astro Spectra]

Image:

http://mediacenter.motorola.com/imageli ... ailsID=638

Press release:

http://mediacenter.motorola.com/content ... wsAreaID=2

Brochure:

http://mediacenter.motorola.com/imageli ... ailsID=642

Oh, and APX only...

[ads47]

After spending some time with the head last week it is nice, will they sell many I doubt it.
Instead of utilizing the serial controlled light bar and siren units already on the market they use there own very expensive proprietary units. So blow a siren driver and you get to pay the big M's price instead of of the other guys. Have a problem with your relay box.. same deal.
Very few newer systems send status messages through the radio system, most rely on separate data networks for status and MDT's. So having all that real estate dedicated to those functions will be a waste for most.

Now if they hacked off the top and bottom sections they would sell alot more in my opinion.

I think most of these designs come from having a very small focused group that interacts with the human factors design team. Great designs, just some are off base of what the mass's use. Like putting all the active cancellation design work in the APX7000 which could really help the ambient noise issue in digital radios. But then it all goes to waste when you connect a speaker mic which is how 99% of all public safety radios are used (side note their competitors didn't miss that mark, theirs works with or without the PSM!).



Some of the other nice things coming out....

RFID tracking tags built in with future versions of CPS to have fleet manager functions for fleets with tons of different codeplugs!!

APX PSM with a display!

APX version specifically for Firefighters.

Software driven Impress charger for fleet battery managment.



ads

[ASTROMODAT]

OMG!!!! I want one, NOW!!!

Looks to me like the 09 will eliminate all that garbage multiple vendor crap required in today's current cop cars (e.g., big huge headache mess of separate radio head, separate light bar control head, separate PA/Siren head, etc.) and all of the unnecessary (now thanks to the 09) inter-object wiring, varying impedance requirements, a multiplicity of relays, and all of their failure characteristics, many inter-vendor incompatibilities to deal with, etc. Keep in mind that these sorts of vendors are not anything like the avionics community, where you have tightly controlled and highly defined ARINC standards and protocols, to build to. Even with ARINC, it is a complex maze to navigate vendors' wiring requirements in the instrument panel. Take a look sometime behind the scenes at the gazillion miles of wiring, connections (e.g., fail points), solder jobs, relays, et al, associated with 3 or 4 or 5 vendors in the drivers cockpit. The 09 will eliminate all of this antiquated nonsense, and I bet in the end, it will be cheaper to get the single vendor bid solution, as opposed to going out to the bazillion different (incompatible) vendors.

Now, it' all be integrated into one box. Wonder how long it will be before they figure out they need to add GPS?

2 Questions:

1. Does anyone know if the 09 can be connected up to the XTL 5000 (with proper s/w, of course)? I've heard a horrible rumor (and I hope it's untrue!) that the 09 is targeted for the APX radios, and will NOT be backward compatible with the XTL 5000.

2. It appears that the new 09 head fits into vehicles' standard console protocols---anyone know for sure if it is designed to perfectly drop into "X" number of panel positions in a standard US made vehicle (e.g., the venerable Crown Vic)?

Just My 2 Cents, and YMMV!!

[Jim202]

In looking at the huge size of it, you will loose the normal vehicle radio in the dash. I could be wrong on this,
but it looks like it will eat up all the dash space. Good design from the Mother M boys again. They forget
about the normal people that like to listen to the news and weather.

Jim

OMG!!!! I want one, NOW!!!

Looks to me like the 09 will eliminate all that garbage multiple vendor crap required in today's current cop cars (e.g., big huge headache mess of separate radio head, separate light bar control head, separate PA/Siren head, etc.) and all of the unnecessary (now thanks to the 09) inter-object wiring, varying impedance requirements, a multiplicity of relays, and all of their failure characteristics, many inter-vendor incompatibilities to deal with, etc. Keep in mind that these sorts of vendors are not anything like the avionics community, where you have tightly controlled and highly defined ARINC standards and protocols, to build to. Even with ARINC, it is a complex maze to navigate vendors' wiring requirements in the instrument panel. Take a look sometime behind the scenes at the gazillion miles of wiring, connections (e.g., fail points), solder jobs, relays, et al, associated with 3 or 4 or 5 vendors in the drivers cockpit. The 09 will eliminate all of this antiquated nonsense, and I bet in the end, it will be cheaper to get the single vendor bid solution, as opposed to going out to the bazillion different (incompatible) vendors.

Now, it' all be integrated into one box. Wonder how long it will be before they figure out they need to add GPS?

2 Questions:

1. Does anyone know if the 09 can be connected up to the XTL 5000 (with proper s/w, of course)? I've heard a horrible rumor (and I hope it's untrue!) that the 09 is targeted for the APX radios, and will NOT be backward compatible with the XTL 5000.

2. It appears that the new 09 head fits into vehicles' standard console protocols---anyone know for sure if it is designed to perfectly drop into "X" number of panel positions in a standard US made vehicle (e.g., the venerable Crown Vic)?

Just My 2 Cents, and YMMV!!

[tvsjr]

OMG!!!! I want one, NOW!!!

Now why am I not surprised, from M's biggest fanboi?

It's APX only. Only supports one radio - you want two radios simultaneously, or perhaps *gasp* an EDACS or Provoice radio? Too bad. It's huge... expect it to take up a big chunk of real estate. And it has a huge degree of lock-in... why did Whelen's B-LINK system never get any more popular than it did? Same problem...

Oh, and I don't think it'll mount into the dash of an SL600...

[ASTROMODAT]

tvsjr, How do you know it is APX only?

Is there a link, etc. you can refer me to? I have attended a couple of Motorola APX seminars in the past few months, and heard it both ways ("Yes," "Maybe," "Not Sure..." and "No" in terms of XTL 5000 compatibility with the 09 Control Head).To date, I have not seen anything in writing (e.g., Motorola manual, technical spec sheet, etc.), so Im wondering if you could provide a reference for your comment "APX only."

Thanks

[alex]

2 Questions:

1. Does anyone know if the 09 can be connected up to the XTL 5000 (with proper s/w, of course)? I've heard a horrible rumor (and I hope it's untrue!) that the 09 is targeted for the APX radios, and will NOT be backward compatible with the XTL 5000.

O9 will not be supported in the XTL due to the amount of memory required to run the additional features of the O9. Motorola is focusing any product development on the new APX series more than supporting their older products. They wanted to bang every feature into release 1, as opposed to what they did with the A25 platform (make it talk analog and slowly add features over the product life that make it a true high tier radio).

2. It appears that the new 09 head fits into vehicles' standard console protocols---anyone know for sure if it is designed to perfectly drop into "X" number of panel positions in a standard US made vehicle (e.g., the venerable Crown Vic)?

The head will fit into the "dual" A9/W9 bracket made by most vendors is what I am told.

-Alex

[ads47]

As Alex said from and from the engineers mouth it does not and will not support the XTL platform. The APX currently carries a gig of on board memory which the 09 uses very heavily. Its hard to tell from the pics but the back is inset a bit to fit the current faceplates that are out there. It also does have GPS capability, but remember to date there are VERY few systems out there that support radio based GPS so it will go unused for several years to come. Almost all AVL systems running to date work on the separate data systems.

An interesting omission I think is they included a SD card slot on the HT but not the mobile?? With plenty of real estate to mess with you would think they would have put one on both.

I think the new HHCH is a much better alternative.

ads

[resqguy911]

I think most of these designs come from having a very small focused group that interacts with the human factors design team. Great designs, just some are off base of what the mass's use. Like putting all the active cancellation design work in the APX7000 which could really help the ambient noise issue in digital radios. But then it all goes to waste when you connect a speaker mic which is how 99% of all public safety radios are used (side note their competitors didn't miss that mark, theirs works with or without the PSM!).
ads

Personally, if you aren't using best practices (hold radio in front of face with antenna up) you probably don't care much about performance. A RSM/PSM is a sacrifice, when they are put into use the responsible party should educate the end user to the downside.

[Pj]

...and from what I was told, the orginal O9 head was ready to go for the XTL's, but some engineering screw up discovered at the last minute, and with the APX on the horizon...that O3/O5 is the best your going to do. Rumor also had it (from a good source) is that - that O9 was also going to be implemented for the dual radio XTL's. The 09 was also suppose to be a flagship product to work well with IV&D.

As Alex says, now that the APX line is about ready to take off, kiss any extra's that Moto had on the backburner for the XTL's to quietly get shelved.

This O9 (with the yet to be known complete set of external features for L/S etc) is a good move for Motorola. With the slowly acceptance of intergrated vehicle systems (54ward, etc) Motorola can sell a complete soultion in one head...save for the MDT portion of that (well, they can bang a MW810 into it). CHP is advancing their intergrated patrol car pod that does just about everything with a hand pod and screen.

This has some good information: http://www.wb6nvh.com/CHP2009.htm

[ASTROMODAT]

Does anyone know if there is anything on Motorola's Product Roadmap in terms of an 07 head that might be stripped down 09, with the nice big screen, that would work with the XTL?

[ads47]

I think most of these designs come from having a very small focused group that interacts with the human factors design team. Great designs, just some are off base of what the mass's use. Like putting all the active cancellation design work in the APX7000 which could really help the ambient noise issue in digital radios. But then it all goes to waste when you connect a speaker mic which is how 99% of all public safety radios are used (side note their competitors didn't miss that mark, theirs works with or without the PSM!).
ads

Personally, if you aren't using best practices (hold radio in front of face with antenna up) you probably don't care much about performance. A RSM/PSM is a sacrifice, when they are put into use the responsible party should educate the end user to the downside.

Its not a sacrifice when your system is designed from the ground up to use a PSM and a unity gain antenna at shoulder height, and unfortunately the radio to the face isn't the way the majority of radios are used in Public Safety. So if your system wasn't spec'ed for that type of coverage your screwed no matter what. I cant remember the last time I watched someone in the middle of fire attack pull there radio out and hold it up to talk on it. Nor do I recall any police officers calling for help holding a gun in one hand and grabbing there radio off their belt with another, its usually just reaching to there shoulder and clicking the PTT. Ad slicks usually show the radio to the face stance because a picture of a PSM on the shoulder doesn't sell the radio.

ads

[2wayfreq]

Very Nice!!
OK, so confirming that this will be mounted in a console? Because if this is supposed to go where the FM radio is, we already have Data 911 Touch screens in that spot. We will probably have the standard heads anyway.

[ads47]

It will work either way. They have pics showing it both ways.


ads

[resqguy911]

Its not a sacrifice when your system is designed from the ground up to use a PSM and a unity gain antenna at shoulder height, and unfortunately the radio to the face isn't the way the majority of radios are used in Public Safety. So if your system wasn't spec'ed for that type of coverage your screwed no matter what. I cant remember the last time I watched someone in the middle of fire attack pull there radio out and hold it up to talk on it. Nor do I recall any police officers calling for help holding a gun in one hand and grabbing there radio off their belt with another, its usually just reaching to there shoulder and clicking the PTT. Ad slicks usually show the radio to the face stance because a picture of a PSM on the shoulder doesn't sell the radio.

ads

Yah know, the funny thing there is the IACP hasn't come out with a best practices document because police officers haven't complained as much about their radios. We don't pay an extra $100 per turnout coat for a radio pocket up high so you can put your radio low on a leather strap. And I have also NEVER seen a radio advertisement showing a FF down low with the HT dangling between their legs while trying to talk. They always show the chief standing outside...

Anyway, we have totally gone off track here. The O9 includes some neat features, but I would have preferred just having a bigger display with the O5 control set. Perhaps the O7 is something we need to push for.

[Jim202]

I could be wrong here, but are we starting to get vibes on the early hints that mother M is moving towards dropping
the XTL line of radios and the heads that go with them? I know they are selling like hotcakes to the public safety
and federal agencies, but I have seen this move before. I give the XTL line maybe another 2 years at the outside.

Jim

[alex]

I could be wrong here, but are we starting to get vibes on the early hints that mother M is moving towards dropping
the XTL line of radios and the heads that go with them? I know they are selling like hotcakes to the public safety
and federal agencies, but I have seen this move before. I give the XTL line maybe another 2 years at the outside.

Jim

I get the impression that their whole goal with APX was to have the radio "do everything that we expect it to" out of the box upon first release. Not to say - this radio can do it, but it doesn't right now, the next firmware release has the feature. They took a ton of the people who work and develop A25 and had them work on APX. That's why R13 was not as exciting as the rumor mill predicted it would be. Features that were going to be incorporated were instead put into the APX platform.

What I think you are going to see happening is the APX is going to be marketed to people who buy systems. The 5K will probably be slowly phased out as there is not a whole lot the 2500 doesn't do or support now. My guess is you will continue to see the 1500/2500 series portables and mobiles, the XTL5000 will be D/C in a year or two and the APX will replace that model.

-Alex

[ASTROMODAT]

I agree that the XTL is unfortunately probably soon to go the way of the ASTRO Spectra PLUS. Yes, I will be very sad to have to dump my XTL 5000, but IMHO it's inevitable at this point (argh!!!!!).

At the two Motorola seminars I have attended on the new APX line, the discussions regarding the APX Product Roadmap pointed towards a target price for an APX radio equipped and delivered with one band to be maybe 15% above a completely tricked out XTL. Keep in mind that the APX 1) can have the second band activated later, IF it is properly equipped from the get-go, if and when needed, for an upgrade fee (no idea what this fee will be, but I’d GUESS a $grand, or more), and 2) the APX line has a lot of additional features over the XTL line.

But, the point is that if you buy a stripped down APX (which is miles ahead of an XTL in terms of expansion capabilities, audio quality and audio receive power, display size and quality, etc.), IMHO you are looking at a reasonably small “penalty” of 15%, with a lot of possible growth options that are not available in the XTL line.

JM2C and YMMV

[alex]

Well, the Astro Spectra + was a simple "bridge" unit anyway - it was meant to fill a gap of having P25 trunking in the Astro spectra until the XTL was released. So when the XTL platform came out, the AS+ was a very logical cancellation.

When ordering your sales person should give you the option to choose a primary and a secondary band. If you are not going to use a secondary band, you still must choose this option with the radio as the physical components differ between bands. There is then a $1,000 (list) option that enables dual band operation in the radio.

This is at least what the story is with the portables. I'm sure the mobiles will be similar.

-Alex

[Pj]

Don't forget, the XTL's have actually been out for quite some time now. Just more of them are ending up in the used market...just like the Astro Spectras to the Spectras, Spectra's to the Syntors, etc.

[Astro Spectra]

Well that was interesting. Yes APX is where it's at. And there is no O7...

[resqguy911]

Just because there is currently no O7 head does not mean there will not be one in the future.

[Victor Xray]

Pictures taken at the FRI 2009 Expo.










Every question I asked, the answer was "sure, that will be available in future software releases" (including FPP, adjustable fonts, custom icons, etc)

[escomm]

Oh hey, that APX has an MT1000 low band rubber ducky antenna

[Victor Xray]

I thought it was a beast of an antenna too and not very flexible. "700/800/VHF/GPS" I think is what is imprinted on the side.

[resqguy911]

Yes, that particular antenna is quite the beast. That is why they offer at least 4 different antennas for the current APX model, in case you are willing to sacrifice performance in one or more areas for flexibility.

[techtonics]

What are the little key chain looking things? souvenirs?

[Victor Xray]

Yes, marketing freebies.

[ads47]

According to my conversation with Mr. Brooks they will only sell the radio with that log of an antenna. I don't see it surviving very well if it gets in the hands of very many busy fire crews. He had his reasons, I disagreed with them. One of the issues at hand is if a single band antenna is used on a dual band radio there may be some warranty issues created. We actually had a pretty long conversation about it. I told him the users were going to put other antenna's on it any way, they should sell it that way. I also told him when doing a cost analysis on an already expensive radio having to regularly replace a $50+ damage prone antenna vs. a $15 antenna would add up quickly and discourage some.


ads

ps.. the key chain thingies were just that thingies I thought they might be LED lights or something..

[p25ron]

You can probably go with the real thing being very close to this. They missed the boat though.. the whole works should have been touchscreen!.

Ever been in a pursuit before? You don't have time to play with a touchscreen. Manual controls are the easiest to manipulate. Plus you can operate them without taking your eyes off the road.

Kind of important when you're doing 120mph.

[Victor Xray]

Oh yah I forgot -- I asked about touchscreen. That was the only "No" answer I received to my list of questions (see above). The reason is because touchscreens would break more-often than any other component.

[resqguy911]

According to my conversation with Mr. Brooks they will only sell the radio with that log of an antenna. I don't see it surviving very well if it gets in the hands of very many busy fire crews. He had his reasons, I disagreed with them. One of the issues at hand is if a single band antenna is used on a dual band radio there may be some warranty issues created. We actually had a pretty long conversation about it. I told him the users were going to put other antenna's on it any way, they should sell it that way. I also told him when doing a cost analysis on an already expensive radio having to regularly replace a $50+ damage prone antenna vs. a $15 antenna would add up quickly and discourage some.

Mr. Brooks should not be at trade shows if he does not know the product.
ANTENNAS
Single-Band Antennas
Optimum length designed for higher gain to maximize range. This rugged capless
design provides maximum flexibility. Also provides built-in GPS capability.
NAF5085 700/800 MHz Whip Antenna (764-870 MHz)
PMAe4065 UHF Whip Antenna (380-520 MHz)
dual-Band Antennas
Maximize interoperability with a dual band antenna. These whip antennas that
have one-piece finish, steel core and spiral wound conductor for optimal radiation
characteristics. Also provides built-in GPS capability.
NAR6591 VHF (136-174MHz) and 700/800 MHz (764-870 MHz) Antenna
PMAS4000 UHF (380-520 MHz) and 700/800 MHz (764-870 MHz) Antenna
PMAT40001 VHF (136 - 175 MHz) and UHF (380-520 MHz) Antenna
gPS Antenna
This antenna is needed when a user has a Public Safety Microphone attached to
the radio and still requires GPS capability.
NAg4000 GPS Stubby Antenna
Public Safety Microphone Antenna
Stubby antenna designed to attach to the Public Safety Microphone.
PMAF4002 700/800 MHz Stubby Antenna for the Public Safety Microphone

[ads47]

According to my conversation with Mr. Brooks they will only sell the radio with that log of an antenna. I don't see it surviving very well if it gets in the hands of very many busy fire crews. He had his reasons, I disagreed with them. One of the issues at hand is if a single band antenna is used on a dual band radio there may be some warranty issues created. We actually had a pretty long conversation about it. I told him the users were going to put other antenna's on it any way, they should sell it that way. I also told him when doing a cost analysis on an already expensive radio having to regularly replace a $50+ damage prone antenna vs. a $15 antenna would add up quickly and discourage some.

Mr. Brooks should not be at trade shows if he does not know the product.
ANTENNAS
Single-Band Antennas
Optimum length designed for higher gain to maximize range. This rugged capless
design provides maximum flexibility. Also provides built-in GPS capability.
NAF5085 700/800 MHz Whip Antenna (764-870 MHz)
PMAe4065 UHF Whip Antenna (380-520 MHz)
dual-Band Antennas
Maximize interoperability with a dual band antenna. These whip antennas that
have one-piece finish, steel core and spiral wound conductor for optimal radiation
characteristics. Also provides built-in GPS capability.
NAR6591 VHF (136-174MHz) and 700/800 MHz (764-870 MHz) Antenna
PMAS4000 UHF (380-520 MHz) and 700/800 MHz (764-870 MHz) Antenna
PMAT40001 VHF (136 - 175 MHz) and UHF (380-520 MHz) Antenna
gPS Antenna
This antenna is needed when a user has a Public Safety Microphone attached to
the radio and still requires GPS capability.
NAg4000 GPS Stubby Antenna
Public Safety Microphone Antenna
Stubby antenna designed to attach to the Public Safety Microphone.
PMAF4002 700/800 MHz Stubby Antenna for the Public Safety Microphone

You would think the VP of Engineering would know the product, it looks like he is about as knowledgeable about it as the sales staff is! But he also acted like he knew nothing about the radio not passing all the type acceptance test and still getting the ok from the FCC, so I forwarded the documents to him when I got home and pointed out his competitors were pointing this out to everyone who walked by.

In his defense though he wasn't there to mingle with the "crowd" I just had some conversations with him off to the side about some of the work we have been doing.




ads

[Jason]

According to my conversation with Mr. Brooks they will only sell the radio with that log of an antenna.

Yeah, thats incorrect. There is a 700/800/GPS only antenna also. Its much more like a standard 800 whip.

[resqguy911]

I should add that those part numbers are from the APX7000 portable accessories pdf.

we are WAY off topic now....

[dfc2]

All that looks nice..... too bad no one but the FEDS, State PD's, and a handfull of the big departments, and your more progressive business buyers will ever see them installed.....

with all the options out there... ( Cheeper non PS rated radios, without the extra's....)

most department heads will look at the lower tier equipment, and then look at that...and say..."Do we really need this..or that?"....... the largest percentage of PD's FD's will get away with the cheeper stuff...... I look around our county and seee guys with MTX8000's... now getting replaced with XTS1500's....... Analog Spectra with XTL1500...... Chief says..." We can't afford an XTS5000...... no.,... no extra firmware... we cant afford that...do we really need that? etc...etc....

It sucks... but atleast around here... the radio shops are OK with selling the lower tier radios to PS users... I guess you can't blame them.... sell 20 lower tier radios...or 5 higher tier radios..... you tell me... do they make about the same profit per radio?

with the smaller cars now a days.... it would be nice to have it all in one control head.... lights siren.... radio....

I would love to get all the crap consolidated in my car... Kustom Vision Video....Pro 1000 radar ( yes..its in the consol???? )....XTL1500...Tomar Lightbar/Siren controller... then add the laptop...AR and Shotgun mount... it all looks nice.... but how bout Moto actuall get people who use the stuff on a focus group... not just the brass who "say" they know whats needed on the road....


JMHO


DFC2

[Pj]

www.54ward.com