MT1000 communication with "bubble pack" radios?

[vulrath]

Okay...While I don't have firsthand knowledge of this happening (mostly because I haven't even programmed them yet), I was recently told that the UHF Motorola MT1000 (and by proxy the less-feature-rich HT600s) that I have will have "issues" communicating with the newer generations of more common (primarily Motorola) "bubble pack" FRS/GRMS consumer-grade radios out there. This is necessary because in my main hobby (military reenactment; this is just a random offshoot of that) there are more people who drop hundreds (if not thousands) on all their other gear, then skimp on the communications equipment and buy a cheap consumer radio.
Is this true? If it is, then any suggestions on a "no-frills" (I guess these would be considered commercial-grade) radio that will play well with the bubble pack radios? I bought the HT600 and MT1000 because they're not feature-heavy (meaning that you only have to have a PhD to program or repair one) and they're durable almost to a fault, and price (I spent about $100 on ebay and got 3 radios, 2 batteries, a lapel speaker/mic, a boom mic headset, 2 chargers, and 2 antennas). While I don't expect to be able to get a deal near as good as what I spent for the radios I got, I'd like to stick with Motorola (obviously, since I'm asking on a Motorola forum) and get something at least half as durable as what I've got if I have to replace something.

/*I'm just checking up on the information I was given; it was given by a less-than-reliable source. I was told I would have troubles because the HTs that I have transmit on FM, and the newer generations of radios work on NFM (I'm assuming this means "new FM"). While I wholly expected leaps and bounds to have been made in the nearly 30 years since my radios were manufactured, I expected at least some sort of effort to have been made to preserve reverse compatibility between older and newer radios. (I also wholly expect this to be just a bunch of crock, so tell me whether it is or not.)*/

[motorola_otaku]

Technically.. well, no "technically" about it, actually, any Part-90 certified (i.e. commercial market) radio is illegal to use on FRS frequencies. GMRS is legit assuming everyone is properly licensed. And with that out of the way...

The issue you have is that your Genesis-series radios (the MT1000 and HT600, and others of their ilk) are wideband-only. FRS/GMRS bubble-pack radios are narrowband. The short-story version is that a Genesis radio will sound "choppy" and muffled on a bubble-wrap radio. Read on for the long-story version.

Wideband in this case means 5kHz transmit deviation and 25kHz receive filtering. Narrowband (or NFM) is 2.5kHz transmit deviation and 12.5kHz receive filtering. When you try to cram 5kHz of analog FM deviation through a narrowband receive filter, it cuts off the modulation peaks and results in choppy or extremely raspy and unintelligible audio. Going the other way -2.5kHz audio into a wideband radio- results in intelligible but very quiet receive audio. And no, you can't modify your bubble-wrap radios to do wideband deviation and receive; one, it's unfeasible given their design, and two, it voids their Part 95 certification and makes them (technically) illegal to use. So what you want to do is find narrowband-capable commercial radios to use on GMRS frequencies with all of your non-family member players carrying individual licenses. Personally, I would recommend the P1225 as they are cheap and plentiful on the used market

[Tom in D.C.]

In general, the "bubble pack" *(BP) radios are not LEGALLY compatible with the "standard" Motorola commercial radios. I'll try to explain this so you will understand why. The BPs operate generally on channels that are between the channels of another radio service, licensed by the FCC, called GMRS. To operate on GMRS you need a license and the license only applies to you and members of your family. The frequences between the GMRS channels are called FRS, for Family Radio Service, and operation on those FRS channels is unlicensed, limited to very low power (much lower than on GMRS), may not be used by a commercial business, and the radios may not have removable antennas. So, if you have a GMRS license you can use the standard Motorola radios, but you can"t use them on FRS. Both services use FM, and if it's narrowband or wideband FM mixed you can have reception problems between the two modes. (While it's possible to intermix FRS and commercial radios, it's not legal, and if you're ever caught doing so it's a Federal Offense which since you'd probably be operating unlicensed, is prosecuted by the Justice Department and is no joke if it happens to you as it has to some.) Much better to be licensed by the FCC and keep it all legal. Now, just to confuse things a little more, there are radios sold commonly that have both radio services built into them. The packaging of these units usually includes an FCC license application for the GMRS side so your operation on GMRS will be legal.

As for "improvements" in technology over the last 30 years, FM is still in wide use, although we also commonly now use digital methods, one of which is called P25. That method does not figure in a discussion such as this at this time.

If you do a Google search for GMRS, FRS, etc., as well as a search on this Board I think you'll come up with a lot more interesting information on this subject. And you're always welcome to come back here and ask as many questions as you want to ask.

Regards,

[vulrath]

I already know that I can't use these things on FRS frequencies (why would anyone want to, anyway, if they knew the legalities involved? much less of a headache to do things the legal way), and I'm getting the GRMS license, so with that out of the way, I want to communicate with the GRMS channels on the bubble pack radios, not the FRS side (I want the GMRS stuff anyway because the transmit power is, like you said, Tom, much higher than what is allowed on the FRS channels, thus allowing me a much longer range). I just wanted to make sure my information was valid before I drop another $100+ on new radios, gear, and the appropriate programming equipment.

Thank you, otaku, for answering my question. I forgot to take into account that what was considered narrowband when my radios first came out is now considered wideband.

[Tom in D.C.]

As long as you don't believe the advertising that the combo FRS/GMRS radios have a range of 30 miles it looks as if you're on the right track. Such outrageous claims are common. One other thing involves transmit power. If a bubble pack radio has both FRS and GMRS on it then odds are that the GMRS side is very low power same as the FRS. There are GMRS radios available that are GMRS only, with max permitted power and are of commercial quality or nearly so. You'll pay more for these than you will for the bubble pack junk but you'll have the radio for years with little or no problems.

Regards,

[vulrath]

I figured as much. One of the first things I learned about radios is that advertised range is a bunch of hogwash.

I need the ability to transmit over several acres, so max power is always good.

The only downside to grabbing a GRMS-only pack is that as with all the other gear that I've got, the radio needs to work with the general "look" I'm trying to achieve. After taking a look at what the P1250's that otaku suggested (the ones without frilly bells and whistles, since as I've already said, I don't need or want all that), I've decided to stick with that as my goal unless a better option comes to my attention (I'm not purchasing until at least after the holidays...It'll more than likely end up being what I spend my tax refund on, lol).

[MT2000 man]

As Tom has said, with GMRS (even with using the max. portable power (4 watts I believe) your still not going to hear very far on simplex (portable-to-portable). Depending on the conditions (trees, hills, buildings, etc.) you'll be lucky to get one mile if that out of a pair of GMRS portables around a city-like area. A few blocks would probably be all you'll get. If the line of sight is better you will get better reception. A repeater is where you will get some coverage worth talking about, but it sounds that you don't want to go that route. If your only looking to communicate between several acres of land (hopefully open land with little to no obstructions) than a couple GMRS portables should do fine. You said you just wanted a "no frills' military looking radio, then your current set-up should do just fine. However, if your tax return check is going to be big, then I recommend for the full military retro-look a Astro Saber II-R (VERY hard to come by though)
Good luck.

[Bill_G]

I think he should go low band and take advantage of ground wave.

[Batwings21]

One of the guys I work with has a son involved in re-enactment stuff, he opened up a non-working WW II era radio and installed a gp300 inside wiring up the speaker mic connector and antenna to the retro unit's speaker and mic so from the outside it looked like a working WW II radio pack.

[Tom in D.C.]

It might be sacriligeous to some to gut a BC-611 and put a GP300 inside but it would be outta sight in the reality department. Of course if you have a ham license you COULD also use the BC-611 in standard form on maybe 3950 kHz, but you'd also have to find the batteries for the thing, which might be difficult and expensive.

[Batwings21]

I believe the unit was already gutted, or badly water damaged when they started on the project. But his fellow re-enactors love it!