Batboard

I have a few used flash upgrade dongles with ibuttons in them. I would like to use an advanced system key to protect my FD's radios from unauthorized programming. I'm using a password now, but there are certain things that I don't mind the members changing, like adding their own freq's, etc...but no changing ID's and other similar fields. ANYWAY, can I use these old flash upgrade dongles as ASK (Advanced System Keys)? If so, how - I can't seen to initialize them. If not, can I buy any generic iButton's and insert then in the dongle and initialize them?

Thanks for any advice!

You must first have a Master Advanced System Key attached to your computer. After you read the Master ASK with the CPS, you are then enabled to initialize user ASK's. An end user cannot create a Master ASK, the system administrator must obtain that from Motorola.

You can buy blank iButtons from Motorola but they are a generic part that you can also buy from parts distributors.

So it seems as if the ASK's are mostly for TRS's, since you mention a sysadmin. We're using XTS1500's and 2500's, conventional only. Since there is no true sysadmin (it's only me), I assume I cannot create a MASK. Can I obtain one from /\/\? Are they expensive?

I ordered a 16KB, a 8KB and a serialized ibutton sample from www.maxim-ic.com (didn't know which would work correctly), but I see now that they will do no good without an ASK.

Again, thanks.

There's also the fact that the model iButtons they use for feature/refresh are entirely incompatable with the models they use for ASKs.

Oh, well then that answers that. Does anyone know the difference? I assume that the ones used for flashing/refreshing are the 16/32/64/128MB...etc iButtons and the ones for ASK's are serialized. I'm going to wait until my free samples arrive and do some research/testing and I'll post my results for anyone who's interested.

Thanks for you help XMO!

...and akardam - didn't mean to forget you!

Both types of iButtons that Motorola uses for refresh/feature and ASKs have 4KB of onboard memory and a real time clock. In addition, the refresh/feature iButtons have onboard SHA1 crypto capability.

To answer your initial query, I remember there being mentioned a "conventional" ASK at one point, but I believe it only applied to P25 conventional systems.

Rob,

You wrote in your original post:

"...but there are certain things that I don't mind the members changing, like adding their own freq's, etc."

It would seem that allowing a department member to add channels to an official department radio would not be a very good idea, like how do you keep a person from screwing up the whole radio if they're untrained, uninformed, or just playing around?

Regards,

[quote="Tom in D.C."]
It would seem that allowing a department member to add channels to an official department radio would not be a very good idea, like how do you keep a person from screwing up the whole radio if they're untrained, uninformed, or just playing around?

If it were up to me, no one except me would be able to change anything. However, the individuals at the top of the food chain have decided that they do not like their radios password protected because the members should have the right to do what they want to the radio which is issued to their members, yadda yadda yadda... SO i figured that this would be a fair comprimise - allow them to add their own stuff, but NOT be able to modify whatever the department decides to put in. Half the problem is that those people don't understand the possible reprucussions of their decision. It's one thing if members add a bank or two for use in another area for monitoring. If they decide to remake a bank of channels used in their company, but they program it wrong, they may end up in a situation where because they programmed something wrong, their radio does not work correctly to call for help, making them have to change banks...using precious seconds where seconds can mean life or death.

I think the problem you are going to have is how to lock it down...

With the ASK (and this is based on what I understand of one - not physically having one and testing it - so go easy on me) is that you can lock down features.

So Lets say you don't want anyone messing with the zone programming on the radio. This is great in theory - but you can't say you can't change zone 1, 2, 3, but you can add or modify any zone beyond that range. It's an all or nothing type of feature.

In reality, you can probably get an Master ASK for SYSID 0001 for some $$$$ from Motorola for this purpose. There is also rumored to be a conventional system key - but I don't know what the process/thought is to use that.

As a side note, the ASK write block is only so effective.... If you have another ASK from another system, I'm guessing that you can un-write block the radio using that ASK - providing that ASK gives you the ability/permission to do just that.

Just some thoughts.

I don't think what you are trying to do will be successful in the Conventional world as you would like.

-Alex

Hmmm, I see. I was under the impression that the ASK has the ability to allow users to add and modify data that they input into the radio, but not change data that a user with a different ASK entered:

In other words, I add channels 1-48 into zones 1-3 and program MDC id 1234.

The radio user wants to add channels 49-53 and add them into bank 4 which he created. He would be able to do that, and modify 49-53 but not change 1-48 or banks 1-3.

I think that it's time for me to put everything on the table. I'll just have to present all the relevant facts pertaining to users programming the radios, and let them make a decision. If they decide to remove the password protection, so be it. It's just that being a volunteer FF and EMT for more than 12 years, I know what these people THINK they know, and I know that in the end, I'm going to be reprogramming a LOT of radios. Whatever.

Oh, the other comical thing was when they told me to "Stop using the newest software. It's getting harder to find it online. Go back and use something prior to 10.00.00". Do you know how long it took me to convince them that you cannot go backwards. I just loaded 13.00.01 whether they like it or not!

radio_rob_nj wrote:

Tom in D.C. wrote: It would seem that allowing a department member to add channels to an official department radio would not be a very good idea, like how do you keep a person from screwing up the whole radio if they're untrained, uninformed, or just playing around?

If it were up to me, no one except me would be able to change anything. However, the individuals at the top of the food chain have decided that they do not like their radios password protected because the members should have the right to do what they want to the radio which is issued to their members, yadda yadda yadda... SO i figured that this would be a fair comprimise - allow them to add their own stuff, but NOT be able to modify whatever the department decides to put in. Half the problem is that those people don't understand the possible reprucussions of their decision. It's one thing if members add a bank or two for use in another area for monitoring. If they decide to remake a bank of channels used in their company, but they program it wrong, they may end up in a situation where because they programmed something wrong, their radio does not work correctly to call for help, making them have to change banks...using precious seconds where seconds can mean life or death.

If this is a department owned radio, remember that the department can be held criminally and civil liable for a member of the department adding or operating on frequencies that the department is not licensed on. And just that fact that you allow them to do it can get you a FCC violation as well.

Really! I knew that the department can be held liable if they allow their members to do that, but how could I receive an FCC fine also? I'm only doing what the department is asking of me, and I'm not adding the illegal frequencies (well, OK, we don't have agreements with all of the licensee's which we have in our radios, but who does?). What I'm doing is what most shops do - program a radio to a customer's specifications. What the customer does from that point forward is up to them. I'm not supplying the software or any information. In fact, I won't even give out my password. Can someone with FCC legal knowlesge clarify this? I'd rather dump my own dept. and our sister dept's as customers then risk fines and bad blood with the FCC. I have to look out for my business!

This isn't the place for the can/can't legal type stuff - consult your department attorney to get this information, do not take advice from a message board...

With that in mind - keep away from the legal/policy stuff and answer the guy's question.

-Alex

I have played with the ACK (Advanced Conventional Key) extensively. It does not even come close in usefulness and functionality to an ASK (Advanced System Key). It will only allow provisioning for OTAP (Over The Air Programming) and some form of radio inhibit, which I can not recall at the moment.

Write Protect, Adding/Deleting Zones, Modes, Personalities, Scan Lists, ID's etc. are all features of an ASK, not an ACK. It looks like unitl Motorola further develops the ACK to function similar to an ASK, your best method of protection against unauthorized programming is the CPS Password.