Batboard

Hi Folks,

I've got a group of XTS2500s that all have my ID# in them.

Here's how I programmed the radios (I do not have a key, as I didn't plan on
modifying any of the trunking data).

Clicked on program radio, but as they are different serial numbers, it would not let
me continue. Then went to clone menu & tried program radio. Got an error message
"This function can not occur until every trunking system in memory has a corresponding
system key". Clicked 'OK', then re-clicked the program radio button. It programmed 'fine'.

1. As I am programming radios that don't have the same serial number, how do I program
them without going through this step (which obviously programs the ID# also).

Looks like I should have gone through the 'clone wizard' and selected conventional only.
But what about changing things in the trunking call list - I need that changed as well.

2. How can I put the ID numbers back into the radios without the key?... seems it should
not have programmed the ID without the key initially.

Thanks,

Tim

Why are you programming trunking systems without the key, firstly? If you have authority to have the radio on the system, you should have the system key if you are authorized to program the radio. If not, take the radio to the system admin and have them fix it.

Uh, where did I say I was trying to program the trunking systems?



***** original post information *****
Here's how I programmed the radios (I do not have a key, as I didn't plan on
modifying any of the trunking data).
*****************************************


I've got 29 of these radios and was just trying to put conventional stuff
in them, and the CPS changed the radio's ID.

I can take the radios back to the county guy to re-insert the radio's ID,
(I guess), but I'm trying to get some information to see if I can change them
back, and also to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Tim

It is always dicey to try to program a trunking radio if you don't have the system key available - things can be......unpredictable.

My suggestion would be to get the system key from the county tech or generate one yourself so you don't run into these issues.

Follow up -

The point is, if you are authorized to program the radios in the first place, and have a legitimate subscription to the software there should be no reason why you can't have the system key. You can be what is called a 'COAM' user, 'Customer Owned and Maintained'.

Sorry, I keep getting interrupted.

If you do not have a system key, all you can do is read each radio, modify it and send the data back to the radio. If you 'clone' a radio, since you have no system key, all the software 'knows' is the one ID of the original radio, so all it can do is make an EXACT duplicate into another radio. This process gets a little convoluted and if you don't do it in exactly the right order, the radio WILL end up with the same ID as the donor radio, since the system key is not present.

Unless you are using ASK's you should be able to get a copy of the system key to put on your laptop to program with, that will prevent any confusion on the software 'cloning' side.

Hi Com501,

Seems that the radio's ID# is a 'sacred' thing, and shouldn't just be copied
from the 'master' radio.

Is there a cloning sequence that I can use to make sure it doesn't happen again?

It really isn't feasible to just load each radio & modify it. 29 radios? I don't think
so!

thanks,

Tim

Hmm,

Not sure where that post was that I just submitted, but it didn't make it over.

Anyhow,

We are authorized to program the radios - I've been on the phone with
the admin trying to figure this one out. He doesn't have a clue, which
is why I'm posting it here.

We did purchase an authorized copy of the software - revision 13.

I don't want to mess with the trunking info, other than perhaps the call list.

Our admin is 60 miles away, which is one of the reasons we are programming
our conventional stuff ourselves.

Tim

Yes, there is, but I never program radios without a system key, and the few times I have done it in the past 20 years or so, all I can remember is it was not easy or simple, and I screwed it up the first time!

Perhaps someone else on here who has done this more often will read this post and chime in. In the meantime, I would call the system admin and see if they will email you a copy of the system key, unless, of course, it is an advanced key.

Do you know what the system ID is?

If so, PM me, do not post it here. Does your sysadmin know if your system requires an advanced key? (Probably it does not).

PM sent

I'm a tad confused, but if the question the OP intended is: "Why won't the CPS permit me to clone a trunked radio without a key?", the answer is that the CPS is designed to prevent precisely such cloning, because such cloning a trunked radio is the effective equivalent of programming a new radio with a trunking system.

Tim wrote:I've got 29 of these radios and was just trying to put conventional stuff
in them.

You should have just done a drag & drop of only the fields you wanted duplicated.


-Marc

See? I knew someone would have a better idea!

It would still require him to read each radio, and drag and drop from the donor radio, right? Still a pain.

com501 wrote:See? I knew someone would have a better idea!

It would still require him to read each radio, and drag and drop from the donor radio, right? Still a pain.

Right, just open 2 CPS windows side by side and go to town.. Not really a pain at all..


-Marc

RKG wrote:I'm a tad confused, but if the question the OP intended is: "Why won't the CPS permit me to clone a trunked radio without a key?", the answer is that the CPS is designed to prevent precisely such cloning, because such cloning a trunked radio is the effective equivalent of programming a new radio with a trunking system.

This is the part I'm hung up on... without the system key, how did you program them with the duplicate id in the first place? And what id is duplicated? The trunking, mdc or astro id?

I was confused about that too, although he says that they now all display the same ID when he keys them on the system. I have no idea how he did that either. That is a 'not good' thing in the CPS. He is getting together with the radio techs to get it corrected ASAP.

Hi Guys,

I don't have a key for the radio, and I really wanted it that
way so I couldn't inadvertently mess something up. The main
purpose in the 'clone' was to copy all of the conventional
stuff into the radio. I figured since it didn't have a key, then
it wouldn't mess with sensitive stuff. HA!

After all of this happened, I tried the clone wizard, and selected the
'conventional only', but then got the message that all the trunk data
would be erased. Obviously, that's not a good thing.

There was a lot of stuff that I needed to change - adding conventional zones,
etc, so the drag'n drop really wasn't an option unless I wanted to spend
a whole day or more doing it. It could have also introduced possible errors in
some of the radios (fumble fingers).

How did I change the radio ID? Good question. It is located under
Trunking system/general, and is the Astro25 unit ID. I guess only
changeable with the key.

I'll get with our admin & see about getting a key, but will also see if
I can set up a case with Mot to see what they say.

Thanks to all,

Tim

Yeah, the ability to clone a trunked radio without the system key would be, undesirable for Motorola and a BIG bug in the CPS.

Hi guys,

Well after spending about 30 minutes on the phone with a Mot guy in Schaumburg,
it was determined (by him) that there is definitely NOT a bug in the software.

Regardless that a system level item was changed WITHOUT a key, it's not a bug
in the software.

Whatever.

He did suggest doing the drag'n drop (like Marc did). He did say that dragging an
entire zone should work. I tried it, and it seems to work ok, so I shouldn't have
this problem again. A bit more hassle, but much less than doing it a personality
at a time!

No luck on getting the key - our system is piggybacked on another larger organization
who owns 'the switch', so they aren't too open to extra keys floating around. No big deal, I
don't want to mess with the trunk stuff anyway.

I'll just start sending a couple of the radios down to our admin to change the radio IDs
back to what they should be.

Thanks again to all!

Tim

Out of curiosity, what version of the Astro 25 CPS are you using, and what is the revision level of the radios?

CPS version 13.00.01
Flashcode 500008-00048C-7

Hi All,

Looks like it did it to the XTL2500 mobiles as well. Guess I'm gonna have a
big box of radios to put the ID#s into!

Ugh!

Tim

From a distance, it sounds to me like whoever programmed these radios has got the learn the difference between "Clone" and "Clone Express."

Hi RKG,

That's kind of an off-handed suggestion that I screwed up the radios!

I guess it is, since I tried to program them!!

I've tried all of the forms of program, clone, etc, & nothing will let me change
only the conventional stuff that I changed.

Notice that I don't have the key, so any type of cloning will give me an error
message.

The main question is why did the CPS change the Astro 25 radio ID# in all of
the radios if there is no key plugged onto the computer? Note the ID# is
greyed out in the CPS when no key is attached.

Tim

Tim wrote:Hi RKG,

That's kind of an off-handed suggestion that I screwed up the radios!

I guess it is, since I tried to program them!!

I've tried all of the forms of program, clone, etc, & nothing will let me change
only the conventional stuff that I changed.

Notice that I don't have the key, so any type of cloning will give me an error
message.

The main question is why did the CPS change the Astro 25 radio ID# in all of
the radios if there is no key plugged onto the computer? Note the ID# is
greyed out in the CPS when no key is attached.

Tim

A mild criticism, I suppose, but intended to be helpful.

Cloning is the only way to maintain a fleet while simultaneously maintaining one's sanity. In the old days, you had to:

Read the master clone codeplug (hereinafter "cloneplug").
Clone the radio (this sets the IDs to whatever is in the cloneplug).
Read the radio.
Restore the IDs to what they were for this particular radio.
Program the radio a second time.
Read the cloneplug again and go on to the next radio.

"Clone Express" is a new feature (starting, I believe, with the Astro Saber/XTS3000 CPS) that inserts all of the cloneplug data except that it preserves the target's IDs. This significantly improves the speed and reliability of fleet maintenance.

Almost any action to the trunking IDs in a trunked radio require a system key...

The OP does not have one. How did his data on the trunking talkgroup IDs get changed?

Monday I am pulling four or five of our demo XTS's and I am going to see if I can duplicate his results. If there IS a bug in the software, it needs to be called to Motos attention.

I admit, I have NEVER cloned a trunked radio when I didn't have the system key or ASK. Most techs who do this type of work, have all the tools they need to perform the process. This might have been easily overlooked in a recompilation somewhere in the past. Motorola lets US error check their software now. Why does anyone think that there have been so many revisions in some programs like Trbo, otherwise? Look at the release notes.

Interestingly enough, I ran into an eerily similar problem in the last couple days.

We were building a set of slave ASKs for a contractor, which among other things limited the range of IDs that could be programmed into the radio. In a fit of absent-mindedness, when I was testing them I loaded a codeplug, read the serial number, and hit clone. I never bothered to check the ID from the template codeplug before I wrote. What's surprising is that the template had an ID outside the allowed range, and yet it still wrote it to the radio.

I was able to duplicate this scenario under the latest versions of MTS/MCS, Astro, and Astro25 CPS. On the other hand, if you change the ID before you write, and it's outside the limit, it throws an error. Similarily if you load the ASK after you open up the template codeplug, it throws an error. So, it kinda-sorta works...

Not sure if this has the same root as the OP's problem. In all the testing I was unable to get the radio to clone without the key loaded, period. I've referred the issue to Motorola and am waiting to hear back.