Radio Locking Legality

[ASWEEZY]

Ok here is the situation
I own my radios and have licensed software to program them.

One of many departments I am with bought into a group that has multiple repeaters and op freqs. licensed.

The group requires all radios be programed at a local shop (@ $40 a pop) and only that shop.
When you get you radio back it has a CPS password on it and now you can not change anything without going back to the shop and paying again or having those channels and the password removed.

What is the legality of this? My reason for asking is another agency changes freqs. quite regulary and I do not want to run back pay again and be with out the radio for a few days when it takes 5 min to do on my laptop.

Also before you ask the group will not give out the freqs. to anyone but this shop.

[Tom in D.C.]

So, someone in that department has a brother-in-law who owns a radio shop, or some similar arrangement. There is a lot you left out of your sad story, such as whether or not these "departments" furnish radios to their members, etc. Without knowing more it's difficult to do more than sympathize about your "plight" and make smart remarks, so don't take what I said to start with the wrong way, because it certainly smells like it might just be true. Are these public service agencies/departments, like fire or police, or are they private entities? That basic kind of information might get a discussion started here which would perhaps be helpful to you.

Regards,

[akardam]

You need to engage the services of a lawyer, not a message board on the internet.

Period.

[MTS2000des]

your city or county legal aid society is a good place to start in finding a lawyer who specializes in this area of law in your particular area. This is the place to start.

[ASWEEZY]

Its a group of fire deprtments and EMS agencies that use these repeaters on VHF and a VHF low to VHF cross band repeater the county is on VHF low.

The guy who is the only employee of this shop is high up in the organization and also a fire chief.

I figured i would ask here before legal consult.

[ASWEEZY]

Also radios can be department owned or privated owned same rules applied like I said mine are all owned by me.

Also to pur salt in the wound he asked if he could use my software and cable because he does not have it for that model.

[tvsjr]

The frequencies are licensed to them. If you choose to operate under their license, you play by their rules. They have every right to demand the radios be programmed at their chosen vendor, and to demand that the radios be password-protected.

Have you talked to the group about the password protection issue? They may not even know it's happening and may not care.

If you don't like it, either use their radio, don't use a radio, or quit the group.

Of course, if it were me and depending on the radio family, I'd quietly crack the password (leave it on the radio, but you'd know what it is so you can still read/write the radio).

[ASWEEZY]

I would love to do that but I dont know how on the Icom that i use with them now.

[Tom in D.C.]

...and you GAVE this character the software and cable to use? I hope not.

This guy sounds like he's made of the same stuff as the volunteer chief I once met in New York who
insisted that the duty of the hotel kitchen staff was to fight the fire if and when it started. In other
words, very loud but very few brains.

[FireCpt809]

Welcome to volunteer fire department politics.. The frequencies are public record on the FCC website just have to know the liscensee name.

[ASWEEZY]

Yes they are public record but what about the PL/DPLs and no i have not let him use the laptop and software yet.................

[GMC]

I'm trying to understand this.......... Fire departments in your area are paying to use a privately owned repeater system for communications?????

[escomm]

I'm trying to understand this.......... Fire departments in your area are paying to use a privately owned repeater system for communications?????

It's really not uncommon. Hell, you've got statewide agencies running trunking systems that charge access to local agencies who want to hop on their system... Michigan, Ohio are good places to start looking...

[FireCpt809]

I'm trying to understand this.......... Fire departments in your area are paying to use a privately owned repeater system for communications?????

It's really not uncommon. Hell, you've got statewide agencies running trunking systems that charge access to local agencies who want to hop on their system... Michigan, Ohio are good places to start looking...

Don't forget Illinois. Home state of the /\/\...

[Bill_G]

City of Portland OR charges for access to their 800M trunking system, as does Washington and Clackamas Counties. They are all joined at the hip, and the effective service area is large and well served. So, smaller agencies get the financial benefits of a large agency for a reasonable monthly fee on a long term agreement.

[rc50won]

Its a group of fire departments .

The guy who is the only employee of this shop is high up in the organization and also a fire chief.

So let me see if I got this right....
1. All radios HAVE TO GO to this shop.
2. The sole employee of this shop is a Fire Chief of one of the departments that has to have their radios programmed at $40 each by this shop.

Can you say conflict of interest with financial benefit? Major no-no. He goes to jail and does not collect his $200.

Time to discretely call one of the local TV stations....

M

[Batwings21]

Don't forget Illinois. Home state of the /\/\...

The StarCom21 system is worse than that, its OWNED by Motorola. All departments pay a fee to /\/\ to be on the system.

[jbella]

If he's asking to use your cables and software, maybe it's time to cipher out whether his version of CPS or RSS was legally obtained.....

If he's not too connected, I would first check with a County Commissioner, or Town Manager or Board of Fire Engineers, whomever oversees the FDs. If your sniffing around gets you in trouble, then I'd go to the press. However, don't count on any help from the press long term, once they get their hit and run story, your chances of a long term solution are very slim.

At least in my (un)fair state, this Chief's actions would put him in direct violation of ethics laws recently enacted.

[ASWEEZY]

His software is ligit he is a Moto shop and its an Icom radio

Radio requirements are
VHF
Narrowband
and DTMF or MDC capable


Its funny the "group recomended radios" are pro series radios which he sells way over priced.

I would just say screw it and walk away from it but is is used greatly in mutual aid.

[N4DES]

Its a group of fire departments .

The guy who is the only employee of this shop is high up in the organization and also a fire chief.

So let me see if I got this right....
1. All radios HAVE TO GO to this shop.
2. The sole employee of this shop is a Fire Chief of one of the departments that has to have their radios programmed at $40 each by this shop.

Can you say conflict of interest with financial benefit? Major no-no. He goes to jail and does not collect his $200.

Time to discretely call one of the local TV stations....

M

Before he does that Marshall he should call the County's attorney and let him know that this is going on. If anyone will put a stop to it he will being that this Fire Chief is putting the County in a situation that he is probably not aware.
If he has a written SOP or copy of an agreement that actually has this in writing it would also be a major plus.

Mark

[GMC]

I'm trying to understand this.......... Fire departments in your area are paying to use a privately owned repeater system for communications?????

It's really not uncommon. Hell, you've got statewide agencies running trunking systems that charge access to local agencies who want to hop on their system... Michigan, Ohio are good places to start looking...

I can understand this in a gov't setting .......... it's a private ownership of a system I have a hard time with..............

[escomm]

I'm trying to understand this.......... Fire departments in your area are paying to use a privately owned repeater system for communications?????

It's really not uncommon. Hell, you've got statewide agencies running trunking systems that charge access to local agencies who want to hop on their system... Michigan, Ohio are good places to start looking...

I can understand this in a gov't setting .......... it's a private ownership of a system I have a hard time with..............

Like Motorola's StarCom21 system?

[FatBoy]

Install a keylogger on your machine and then let him borrow the laptop. Do not give him the software. After you get the lappy back, extract the key. FatBoy.

[Bat2way]

Yes they are public record but what about the PL/DPLs...

They are easily decoded by off-the-air monitors.

I understand the reasoning for the PW, but still sounds like a conflict of interest.

[RADIOMAN2002]

Do the research, get the Fire Department and Business frequencies from the FCC data base, or better yet read what the radio transmits on. I wonder if it's sooooo secret is because they are using unlicensed or frequencies not owned by the shop or FD. Don't bother going the public route, do the work yourself. Volunteer FD politics is that your golden till the administration changes, then watch out. Been there done that. Find some one local who has a service monitor, a ham club would be a good start, they love doing Foxhunts and searches. Then read the frequencies direct. Doing the PL/DPL may take some time, but I figured out Home Depots 6 channels in about 45 min that including getting the DPL's. Then for HA HA's run the found frequencies through the FCC database and keep the information to yourself. Save that information for a rainy day when you may need some extra leverage with who ever.
BTW have THAT shop remove their channels from your radio, then you are free to do whatever you want.

[RESCUE161]

They are probably on rr.com already...lol

[Sam]

Did I read this correctly that the county uses lowband, and a group of agencies got together and put up (or rents time on) a VHF system of their own, which they link to the county frequency, and you're looking to gain access to the group system, not the county directly?

[CuriousGeorge]

They are probably on rr.com already...lol

And, if they aren't yet, you can add them.

As far as finding the frequencies and PL/DPL, go to your local Radio Shack with a department owned radio and let them demonstrate one of their scanners. You already know the frequency band you need to search and many of the current generation scanners will display the Pl/DPL being transmitted.

That said, for the greater good, I'm all for you being the whistleblower on this situation. But, easier for me to say that than you to do, and I understand that too. In the meantime, use the department issued radio instead of yours. If it benefits the department for you to use your radio, let the department fight the battle for you.

[rwo978]

Funny story, vollie group I'm in, I've inherited the job of "radio guy" after the previous tech quit to join up a competing vollie group (that's a whole long dramatic soap opera).

Anywho, I had updated all the channel line ups after he left after the admin board decided on the change. But, one of the guys was having problems with the radio that might have been firmware related. I didn't have the updated firmware, so the chief told the guy to go see him. He blew a gasket when he saw the programming had been changed, trying to tell the chief that I couldn't do it, this and that, blah, blah, blah.... he was promptly told that the board decided on the change and that he, no longer a member, had no say in the matter.... period.

Don't let the guy use your computer or software... tell him to take his $40 per shot nest egg and buy a copy for himself. And, at that, no one will tell me what I can/can't do with my personally owned radio. I've got personal frequencies I use between family/friends and every so often, I get a hair to change tones/codes if interference starts. There's no way I'd pay him to do that. Not to mention, I use 2m in my commercial radios (not the other way around, don't lash me with a noodle).

So, keep your radios for yourself, and use the dept radios for dept use. You could do the RR thing or scanner search thing, but will probably only have luck with RX only.

[giguchan]

Asweezy,
I love the Signature.... i have also heard the "turkey chirp can i have it please on my radio"?
hahaha.. good one.

[swg]

The keyllogger suggestion sounds like a good plan, and you can maintain "control" over your licensed RSS by allowing him to use it only if you are there.
To add a bit of "salt" of your own, password protect the executable with one of the aftermarket apps and make him use your setup in your presence. When your RSS proggy asks for the PW on startup, say "Excuse me" and spin the lappy screen away from him and enter your pass.
Based on my impression of his character, chances are he expects to make a copy of your RSS and use it at his leisure if possible.
As for contacting the DA/athorities on the conflict of intrest issue, remember that corruption is seldom just at the surface and you may unwittingly do considerable harm to the organization, something I'm sure you'd rather not see happen. Something to consider before you proceed to right this wrong.
Good luck.
73

[SlimBob]

The keyllogger suggestion sounds like a good plan, and you can maintain "control" over your licensed RSS by allowing him to use it only if you are there.
To add a bit of "salt" of your own, password protect the executable with one of the aftermarket apps and make him use your setup in your presence. When your RSS proggy asks for the PW on startup, say "Excuse me" and spin the lappy screen away from him and enter your pass.
Based on my impression of his character, chances are he expects to make a copy of your RSS and use it at his leisure if possible.
As for contacting the DA/athorities on the conflict of intrest issue, remember that corruption is seldom just at the surface and you may unwittingly do considerable harm to the organization, something I'm sure you'd rather not see happen. Something to consider before you proceed to right this wrong.
Good luck.
73

Piss on him. Tell him thanks but no thanks and find another group to associate with. After he's burned enough people he'll get the message. And for damn sure don't loan out your laptop, RIB, or cable. He can buy the cable and RIB off of eBay and either buy his own RSS/CPS or learn how to find it on the web.

There are some people out there who believe that PL/DPL codes and frequencies are made to be secret. They don't realize that the frequencies are public knowledge. Even more don't realize that Security Through Obscurity is no security at all. That's fine. They hold the license. They can allow anyone who wants to use the system to use it, or to deny anyone they want from doing the same. Their license, their rules. But remember that it is the licensee who is responsible for determining that. If the licensee if the county board of commissioners and not the vollie chief, there's your route.

But again, thanks, but no thanks. If you want what you want from me and I can't have what I want and it's not an unreasonable request... go find someone else to be friends with.

[ASWEEZY]

Well went in with laptop and keylogger......

key logger failed.......

Radio was programed and because he did not know how to enable password on an ICOM he set it to data out inhibit :/

So the next plan of action is take the new HT-1250 there let him program that then read it using cracked software.