Batboard

Hi Guys,

Can someone fill me in on the cost of a software flash for ADP, and the cost of hardware ADP options please?

Cheers,
Matt

While software based ADP is dirt cheap ($10 list) when ordered with the radio, a FlashPort upgrade is $75 list.

The UCM based ADP option is $349 list, and of course requires the $150 UCM hardware.

The XTS5000 ADP UCM kit NNTN4593 is $637. I'm pretty sure this is a hardware module that can be put in a non-encrypted radio to give it ADP encryption.

515 wrote:While software based ADP is dirt cheap ($10 list) when ordered with the radio, a FlashPort upgrade is $75 list.

The UCM based ADP option is $349 list, and of course requires the $150 UCM hardware.

The XTS5000 ADP UCM kit NNTN4593 is $637. I'm pretty sure this is a hardware module that can be put in a non-encrypted radio to give it ADP encryption.

Not to mention, you'll need the KVL3000Plus(plus cable) setup for ADP to put the code into the radio.
Software ADP doesn't allow you to have "proper code detect" on receive - i.e. if someone is using
a slightly different 10 digit key, you'll head chirpy sounds in P25 mode. Hardware ADP has "proper code detect".
Software ADP codes are loaded with CPS, Hardware are inserted via the KVL3000Plus unit.
Also the hardware code retension is different, where the code can be lost if the radio has lost power over a period of time.
(two different options for amount of time to retention of the code exist).
B.

This might be a dumb question, but given that the software ADP flash option is so cheap, what's the appeal to going with hardware ADP? Does it have something to do with the strength of the algorithms on hardware vs. software?

If your radio already has another different algorithm in its UCM, you cannot enable software ADP. It needs to be put into the UCM.

Although software ADP will talk to hardware ADP if the key is the same, hardware ADP is significantly stronger.

MattSR wrote:Although software ADP will talk to hardware ADP if the key is the same, hardware ADP is significantly stronger

Can you substantiate this?

akardam wrote:

MattSR wrote:Although software ADP will talk to hardware ADP if the key is the same, hardware ADP is significantly stronger

Can you substantiate this?

Hardware ADP keys are encrypted on a chip, can be easily erased when the module or battery is removed, etc (although idk if the latter is also true with software ADP)

But, software ADP keys are stored in the radio and from what I read elsewhere can be read in plain text via an s-rec read/hex editor.

Josh wrote:But, software ADP keys are stored in the radio and from what I read elsewhere can be read in plain text via an s-rec read/hex editor.

While I agree with the cps part, i don't think the average joe has access to s-records from adp capable radios...

akardam wrote:

MattSR wrote:Although software ADP will talk to hardware ADP if the key is the same, hardware ADP is significantly stronger

Can you substantiate this?

Of course. I wouldn't have stated it if it weren't the truth.

Apart from the S-record trick posted above (which wasn't what I was initially referring to) there are other shortcuts taken in the software route. UCM's are NIST certified and cost a good deal of money for good reason - they are designed to a spec, not a price. Unfortunately I am not in a position to publicly disclose what I know until our academic paper is published... I'm sure you understand.

Software ADP is meant to be a cheap solution to lock out scanner users, nothing more.

I'm not trying to call anybody a liar, but I am trying to understand if you're saying that hardware based ADP uses an algorithm that goes beyond what is available in the software (DSP) based implementation, or if you're saying that recovering keys from the device is easier for the software implementation versus the hardware implementation.

I have a hard time believing the former. I don't have a hard time believing the latter - if they have their hands on your hardware, you've already lost.

Perhaps you could provide some clarification?

Both are true - a purpose built computer such as a UCM will always do a better job than a general purpose microcontroller will.

All stream ciphers (DES-OFB, ADP etc) depend on external functions such as CSRNGs and entropy generators that aren't easily implemented without specific hardware. (such things aren't available if you don't have a UCM - thats where the $$ goes when you buy one)

As I said above in my previous post, I can't elaborate any further until our paper is published and our work gets credit where credit is due.

Regards,
Matt

akardam wrote:I'm not trying to call anybody a liar, but I am trying to understand if you're saying that hardware based ADP uses an algorithm that goes beyond what is available in the software (DSP) based implementation, or if you're saying that recovering keys from the device is easier for the software implementation versus the hardware implementation.

I have a hard time believing the former. I don't have a hard time believing the latter - if they have their hands on your hardware, you've already lost.

Perhaps you could provide some clarification?

Sorry, I think this is a pointless argument. If you were talking about AES in software vs. hardware, then the merits of purpose-built RNGs would be worth discussing. However, we're talking about an algorithm that already has multiple known attacks - it's not cryptographically strong in the first place.

ADP is a scanner-preventer... nothing more. Most departments aren't going to implement any sort of real key management - they'll load an ADP key in when they first program the radio and it will likely stay the same for years. Therefore, any discussion on the merits of the hardware doing the encryption is pretty much pointless.