Batboard

I was asked to sell a used Motorola Astro Saber 3 radio a while back. I turned it on, made sure it functioned before I sold it. The buyer has since contacted me with the following messages, listed in the order in which they were received:

1) I received the radio today in the mail but I seem to be having a problem programing it. I am using CPS version 5.03 but it says radio feature does not match?????

2) What version programing software was last used on this radio? I have CPS version 5.03 and it will read the codeplug but it will not program it?

3) I put the radio into service mode to check the flashcode and it does not show the memory size or a current flash code in the radio? I can not use it in this condition.


I truthfully have no advanced knowledge of these radios, but I have heard and read that these radios can quickly be ruined by an inexperienced programmer and there are scams around that involve robbing parts and returning the radio as defective. Im not really sure how to handle this deal. Can anyone here advise me and possibly tell me what the chances are that the radio was not defective and it was programmer error?

Maybe you sold very old development version of Astro Saber ("D" firmware and DSP)?

I dont think it had DSP because the model is H04KDH9PW7AN. A google search brings up former a few old listings that specifically say no dsp.
The flash code as printed on the radio is 4800010000003.

Would this guy's software (CPS version 5.03) compatible with this radio? or is it possible it was not compatible and locked up the radio?

thanks

When you said you tested it, did you read/write to it with CPS, or RSS? It sounds like you may feel that the buyer is at fault, but unless you tested the read/write functions then you should not assume they did something wrong. From your post it sounds like you do not know the Astro very well (this is fine, we were all new to them at one time), all Astro radios have DSP. Unless you know for a fact that the buyer did something to the radio to cause this problem then you should consider that you sold a unit with an issue. If they are unable to write to it then you may be able to confirm it has the same codeplug as when you tested it.

As far as the error the buyer is getting that would normally pop up when you are trying to clone a radio with a different flashcode, or even sometimes the same flash, but different firmware revs. Normally it is hard to damage a codeplug when reading the unit.

Ask them if they are able to read it, and then write back to it without making any changes in the codeplug.

There are several reputable board members on here who know the Astro line very well and may be able to assist if you have the radio sent to them. If you would like I can look at it here and can let you know what I find. Drop me an email, or PM to discus that further.

Jim

Dae wrote:I dont think it had DSP because the model is H04KDH9PW7AN. A google search brings up former a few old listings that specifically say no dsp.
The flash code as printed on the radio is 4800010000003.

Impossible.

All Astro Sabers have DPS by design.

Thanks for your responses n7maq and MotoFAN

No, radios are definitely not my forte. I have never actually programmed one of these radios. When I say I "made sure it functioned", I charged it and made sure it picked up some kind of chatter. I have sold 3 of these radios, all from the same source and through extended contact, have only heard good things from the buyers when they programmed them.

I suppose I would like the problem to have originated on their end, but then again I made this thread to help me determine if it has with what little information I have. I offered a standard non-DOA guarantee, which I defined to mean the state of the radio when it comes out of the box with special emphasis that it will turn on without issue. However, if the issue goes deeper than that and there was an underlying problem, I want to do the right thing without getting scammed or ripped off.

It may be just me, but it seems as tho the 3 emails he sent detail a hardware/software mismatch, then a forced read/write, and then a messed up radio, in that order.

Thank you for the offer n7maq, but the radio is currently not in my possession and will not be for some time. But if I do end up giving a refund and the radio comes back into my possession, I may take you up on your offer down the road.

All Astro Sabers have a HOST and DSP which can be read without RSS/CPS if you hit the second lower (closest to the rear of the radio) side button within 10 seconds of power up, 5 times in a row.

The radio will then display it's HOST, DSP, vocon size (if a 1MEG radio), Flashcode and any encryption installed in the radio.

It will do this in kind of a quick order, so you may have to do it several times before copying down all the information.

when selling used Astros this can inform the buyer how new (or old) the radio's operating system (HOST) is, and how current the DSP (the part that handles audio encoding and decoding) as well as if the controller memory size (1MEG is required for IMBE digital versus older VSELP) and what features are enabled (the FLASHCODE tells you this) as well as if any encryption modules are actively installed in the radio, and the algorithms supported.

Astro radios are like computers. A "Dell Inspiron" laptop could be anything from a 486 up to a core 7. Many buyers and sellers aren't aware and this is where many problems start with transactions. Many older Astro Sabers are being dumped by gov't agencies are either old VSELP or analog only radios which are costly to upgrade to function on current IMBE/P25 digital systems (as hardware has to be physically replaced), and some are already P25/IMBE digital ready but may need to be reflashed to support the operation. Older DSP can make a big difference in performance on digital systems. Often times buyers don't know what their buying, and sellers don't know what their selling. Needless to say this is a recipe for a Paypal dispute and a bad sale.

There is a good Astro Primer written by R0F out there. It will give you much valuable information. Good reading if you are going to be dealing in used Astro radios.

n7maq wrote: Ask them if they are able to read it, and then write back to it without making any changes in the codeplug.

I emailed the buyer and asked "can you read from the radio and write back without making changes to the codeplug?"

He responded "I can read the radio using CPS ver.5.03 but cannot write to the radio. The error message "radio and codeplug feature set are different" I asked around it it's almost like the radio is missing it's flashcode with the added features."


@MTS2000des
Thank you very much for the information, If only I knew then what you posted here now... well, if i knew half of what I know now, then, I would have placed special emphasis on as-is/no refunds.

Dae wrote:He responded "I can read the radio using CPS ver.5.03 but cannot write to the radio. The error message "radio and codeplug feature set are different" I asked around it it's almost like the radio is missing it's flashcode with the added features."

Sounds like your buyer tried to write codeplug from other radio (different Model # or FLASHcode).

Or like incorrectly hacked radio (e.g. by S-REC changing).

it sure sounds like the buyer screwed the radio up by bit banging things.

In the future you should make up a simple default codeplug of which you program the radio for the buyer.

Supply this codeplug to the buyer on a disk and keep a copy of it for yourself.

Specifically inform the buyer that to guarantee the radio he must read the radio and save the codeplug read out in a separate directory from the normal CPS one and then e-mail you the codeplug that he read out after the read.

Then have him write the simple codeplug which you provided on disk and then read it out and write it several times and have him inform you via e-mail that the read, write process works.

Specifically make your guarantee with the provisions that if there is a future problem and the default codeplug which you supply does not match the originally sold radio then it is his responsibility from thereon.

If he specifies that their is a programming mismatch and that the default codeplug doesn't work some time after the sale then you will have a pretty good idea that he has probably been bit banging the radio and your part of the sale has been met and it's his responsibility now.

If the buyer doesn't follow your directions then that's his decision to be let out of any guarantee.

I know this sounds like a lot to ask of a buyer but you really need to protect yourself from e-bay scammers.


Mike

The problem here is that it's not even your radio. You were selling it for a friend, & now you are stuck in the middle. In my opinion, since he plugged the radio into a computer & did who knows what, it's his problem now. You are not responsible for what happened after he opened the package. Once he turns it on, & it tx's & rx's, that's it. The warranty is over. Too many people screw up good radios with programming mistakes. I'm sure he didn't save a backup file when he first read the radio. Sounds like he screwed something up, & wants you to take care of his error. Inform him the other 3 identical radios are fine with their new owners. Also tell him all radios were tested for tx & rx before shipping & were fine. You will not warranty his programming error, & you were selling the radio for a friend, & the radio isn't yours & you don't have the authority to refund the money. If necessary give him the contact info for the owner of the radios. If it was a Paypal deal, do whatever you have to do so he can't grab his $ back. This is why so many sales on that popular auction site state "all sales final" due to the unscrupulous actions of buyers of electronics. I have been fortunate with my purchases on this forum, in that I ask the seller to program the radio to my needs so I don't have to deal with it. Good luck to you. GARY N4KVE

Thank you all for your answers. I really appreciate the information and regardless of how this sale ultimately turns out, I will have learned some very valuable (and potentially very costly) lessons.

Dae

I have a theory.What if the radio had:

Firmware:AP_R03.36.00

DSP:I05.01.06(Analog/digital operation)

Flash code:000001-000000-9

-H35: Conventional Systems Operation

Just a theory.

Will the combo of a digital/analog firmware and the conventional systems ops only cause the radio for example to not write?This is a issue I had with a radio in the past that I no longer have.

That would be hard to get on the Astro Saber, it has a Vocon with both your HOST, and DSP EEPROMs. That is not to say that it can not be done, it can be done. Now on a XTS3000 where you have both a vocoder, and controller board and they can be swapped around to where you end up with a miss-match.

Jim

kotaguchi wrote:I have a theory.What if the radio had:

Firmware:AP_R03.36.00

DSP:I05.01.06(Analog/digital operation)

Flash code:000001-000000-9

-H35: Conventional Systems Operation

Just a theory.

Will the combo of a digital/analog firmware and the conventional systems ops only cause the radio for example to not write?This is a issue I had with a radio in the past that I no longer have.

n7maq wrote:That would be hard to get on the Astro Saber, it has a Vocon with both your HOST, and DSP EEPROMs. That is not to say that it can not be done, it can be done. Now on a XTS3000 where you have both a vocoder, and controller board and they can be swapped around to where you end up with a miss-match.

Jim

Astro Sabers do not use EEPROMs, they use flash ROMs. There is a huge difference between the two.

Old post i know, but I would just like to add that I have 2 Astro Sabers that show no DSP codes when reading with 05.03. Both are flash 000004-002000-2

RADIOMAN2002 wrote:Old post i know, but I would just like to add that I have 2 Astro Sabers that show no DSP codes when reading with 05.03. Both are flash 000004-002000-2

Host is AP_R##.##.##?

VSELP radios you might have there. Most likely 512k, can be confirmed by looking at the chips on the controller.