Batboard

HI, I know most details are classified but was wondering if anyone knows what sounds are heard when fascinator is used from a scanner audio standpoint. Like with Astro Digital you hear that trunked noise (sort of)and such. I also want to know if anyone knows what exactly is fasc. encryption used for, DEA, FBI, ATF, SS?

Thanks

Due to its highly efficient nature, Fascinator encrypted signals will sound a LOT like static, more so than DES, DVP, etc. You may not know you're hearing it at all on a scanner with the squelch off, but there should be some sort of audible signal at the beginning or end of each transmission. And even that is conjecture. It IS a classified system, after all! Even its key length isn't released. It would be used by any Federal agency that has a need to transmit and protect any data that is sensitive from the classfied level all the way to (maybe) CTS. (Compartmental Top Secret) There are supposedly several different levels of keys, based on what I've heard, which is that the CCI (Controlled Cryptographic Item) is classified to the level of the key it holds. This obviously suggests multiple levels of keys which suggests that it's designed for transport of secret information.

And that's as far as you get, bub. Nothing but conjecture. I'm guessing based on the hearsay I've heard and a little genuine, publicly released info on CCI handling.

Given the current situation, that's all you're ever likely to hear about it.
You shouldn't pry, not with a war going on.

Elroy

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Elroy Jetson on 2001-11-09 02:22 ]</font>

Hello.

What it sounds like, Beep, pssssssssss.
The first sound is the ACK/IDENT/SOD tone, this is followed by the sync bits, then the data, running key with timing and the voice.
The key is indeed unique, it can be set to unit to unit, a-la RSA, or open, like normal DVP, the encryption follows its own protocol, not DES, nor RSA, perhaps clipper?.

Thank You.

Elroy and Cow, Thanks.
Thats what I wanted to know, Exactly what you told me.

I am not trying to get any technical info on its operation just wanted to know a bit about it.

Thanks guys.

<img src="http://www.tenarrus.com/kcdms/SaberId002.jpg" border=0>

are u implying you have one of these handhelds? hmmmmm

nope , i'm showing what one loks like externaly, i have a bypass module in mine, but it still shows you what to look for.

and with the sticker it makes it a collectable case, since they are the rarest to get.

thats why im trying to trade it for a Saber2 R case.

Na! This is all for educational purposes! You have one Doc? Ed

here call John Dutenger @ 708-538-3254

says special shipping and handling procedures MUST be followed

is dated 4/95 so im not sure hes still at M

Nothing like posting to a fas*ina*o! discussion to get the spooks attention. Just using that fa-cinat-r term will probably have the post automatically trapped by Big Brother.... here is my contribution:

I wonder if an encryption scheme is allowed commercially only if NSA have a means of decoding it? Or perhaps only the deepest layer of the technique is totally unbreakable by NSA? Certainly nothing they would export. A few years ago there was an international tug-o-war as some European countries wanted to create their own encryption standard that NSA wasn't privy to. This was for e-mails. Lots of fur flew on that. Insights?

and not all of are spooks.

allthough somedays i wake up i spook myself.

now if only someone would swap me cases and a couple batteries for mine and 4 sab batteries

There's nothing the NSA can really do to prevent new encryption forms from being developed, both in the US and abroad. This is because encryption is all based on math, and math is accessible to anyone who wishes to study it.

I believe there are laws concerning the use of "new" encryption schemes (developed for the most part by civilians) which basically state that it's not legal to export such schemes if they have a certain security level (number of keys), but they can't be prevented from being used inside the US. PGP is such a format. Standard PGP supports up to 2048 bit long keys, compared to DES's 56. It's pretty serious encryption!

As part of a recently introduced bill in congress, some jackasses we elected are trying to get ALL encryption products BANNED from civilian use. What a joke. What a jerk. I don't know the current status of that bill.

Elroy

If that bill your talking about is still pending, it will most likely pass! soon! remember when they passed the cellular bill, for Scanners! oh well....Ed

Fat lot of good it'll do. Encryption technology is imbedded in all the popular browsers, and you can use that encryption in your email if you just take the time to figure out how it's done. Trying to ban encryption now would be like chasing the sun with a bucket, trying to mop up all the light it's spilled.

Elroy

Can anyone say government software "carnivore"

Although I don't know if I spelled it right.

Does anyone know if there are Astro radios out there with Fascinator option?

Just a cool radio to eternally search for, IF one exists.

Actually, The radio I would love to locate and somehow morg. the house for would be an Astro Saber 3 w/ EDACS capable.

Now, Here's some wishful thinking, A 450-512 Astro Saber 3 wmultibanded with EDACS 800.

Mobile, Yes, portable, No.

The only dual band H/T moto makes is a 146/172MHz and 450/512MHz.
This radio requires a special antenna, strange thing that is thick at the base, gets somewhat thin, then thins some more.
This is built for border law enforcement, to be replaced by " bortac ".
The only place I see them is around Brownsville, TX, and in pedras negras, Mexaco, ( across from Eagle Pass, TX ).
I hope they become surplus real soon, I like the idea of a 2meter/ 440 HT.

Thank You.

Thanks for the info Cow, Do you or does anyone else have any pictures of these radios?

A motorola dual-band?

I'd be willing to rethink a few mortgage payments over that one

I thought that the Yaesu / Vertex FTH2070 was the only commercial dual-band out there (and a bit of a disapointment at that).

Cow, You mention "BORTAC"

Is that a certain type of motorola or other manuf. radio or???

Thank you.

Hello.

BORTAC, BORder TACtical radio system.
Kind of like a fancy radio patch panel, this allows the dozen or so agents to talk to each other when something happens, INS, DoJ, FBI, USSS, DoD, Customs, as well as local police, can use BORTAC.
As far as I know, the moto radios work O.K..

Thanks Cow. Always love hearing about technology of that sort.

Someone asked: Yes, Fascinator encryption is definitely available on Astro products. The Marines have quite a few XTS-3000's (or 3500's) that are equipped with it. I suspect that all military branches have similar equipment and I'm sure the major 3 letter Federal agencies (ATF, FBI, CIA, etc) all have it as well.

Elroy

hello.

I asked, there would be no problem with having the radio, even with the module, you see, the thing has a built-in self destruct, no, it does not blow-up.
When DMZed, it is nothing more than a standard radio, encrypt will NEVER work again.

Very interesting indeed.

What does DMZ stand for by the way?

DMZ is actually zeroing the key, basicly you can still rekey it with the propoer loader.

Beleive me , there is no self destruct for a fascinator module. I was questioned by the FBI/NSA for a saber r I picked up a few years back that had the module in it, it's serious business folks.

Does anyone know if the XTS3000 or Astro Spectra actually require any Fascinator hardware or is it strictly firmware like all the other versions of encryption that ARE in the catalog? Does this require the conventional key loader, or a special one?

RF dude, I cannot recall where I read it but I'm sure Elroy would know.

I think that FASC. requires some type of punch loader thing to load keys.

From the radio's standpoint, only the appropriate encryption module is required.

For keyloading, one of the new KVL-3000's with the Fascinator option is required, but I've also heard that all Type 1 encryption equipment is compatible with regard to keyloading protocols. If this is true, a suitable KVL-3000 could be used to load keys into any Type 1 device with the right adapter cable. I have not received any confirmation of this supposed capability, so consider it a rumor until proven otherwise.

And yes, keys that are distributed from central authority do come on punched tape which is read via the KVL. Locally generated keys are processed and handled like DES keys.

Elroy

If anyone want's more info on Fascinator here's the part numbers for the manual's

6880102W96: ADVANCE SECURENET FASCINATOR
6881074C55: MANUAL, INSTRUCTIONS FASCINATOR, SUPPLEMENT

Cool Nick, Now I wonder if g-man will come knocking at your door about one hour after you pay for the manaual(s) w/ credit card to motorola.

Would be cool to read about though.
If anyone orders either one, let me know how interesting the manuals are.

I would assume it would be cool to buy the manual's. I would think if Motorola is willing to sell them over the net it shouldn't be a problem.

Harris Comms have the low down in PDF format on there Type 1 encryption which they supply to Motorola and was designed for (with?)the NSA.

I'm not sure of the legality of posting the info here but there's a fair bit of info on Fascinator CFB algorithm(s) out on the net. You can even download the algorithms (3 from memory)!

If your interested in Type 1 Encryption you can alway's get info on COTS (Commercial of The Shelf) products as they are not restricted until you load a functional key (you can buy Type 1 outside of the US, although it's not called Type 1, which is a US only term)!

Have fun!

anyone know what it looks like? would it be in one of those silver modules?

Ya'll are crazy.....fascinator is for those who need it....if you dont need it ( and if you dont need it, you dont have it) then relax, wait a few years, it will be cheap. Look at DVP and DES (XL) both were beyond concepion in the 60's now you all have keyloaders and modules. Its not like you all are talking about important stuff anyways.

Case in Point.....This evening on NBC News at 11(NYC Station). They had postulated that encryption standards that were created in the 60's ,DES included, if the NSA were successful in blocking the creators publishing of his work that it would've helped prevent a number of terrorist and military struggles through out the world. I know run-on sentence.....but the point is no matter what happens as something bigger and better comes into existence for NSA,CIA,etc. to play with things like Fascinator will be available to any wing-nut who wants it. They haven't been able to keep things under their hats forever, so it'll get out there eventually. Who knows maybe recent events might change that but just my 2 cents. So patience my young Jedi.......

anyone know what a fasc looks like though? is it a secure module or is it something else included with the radio

<img src="http://abacus.sj.ipixmedia.com/abc/M28/ ... 5f/i-5.JPG" border=0>

could it be one of those gold or silver modules?

I don't know..I thought Fascinator modules where white in color and Fasc. or something like that written on them..who knows..maybe they plate em' gold and silver cause they be so expensive. Who knows...they got so much tight stuff that even their handguns are nikel-plated.

And also, where do you get all of these interesting pictures? You got that for all radios or just sabers? I'd like to study some of those there pictures...Holla if you can e-mail me em.

1

grab them from ebay

Who the hell sells unassembled radios on Ebay? you got that picture off ebay? What do you search for to find stuff like that? Holla at me.

i just do a search for motorola saber and then i just look through the newly listed items and i also search under dift radios

I've seen "parts" for-sale on ebay! for just about any radio!, anything! point/click/scroll down...thats where the pic's are....

The encryption module fits into the LOWEST space in the radio chassis. None of the modules shown in that photo are encryption modules.

Search on ebay for securenet or encryption and you may see an encryption module up for sale before too long. They're common.

With regard to Fascinator encryption, until and unless the format is officially release from classified status and/or is declared to be legally usable by the general public, it is and will remain a CRIME to possess the hardware without authorization. Fascinator encryption has a distinctive spectral "fingerprint" as well, so if you got the equipment and were able to get a key loaded, and began using it, an FCC field lab would identify it by its signature and trouble would probably follow. Pursuit of unauthorized use of Type 1 encryption would undoubtedly be given highest priority.

Elroy

but my thing is does anyone know what a fasc module looks like? or is it a securenet module and the radio has the feature?

The strangest thing about all these Type 1 COMSEC is, if you take a trip to Japan and go to Akihabara area in Toyko, you will find radio shops selling these items in a small corner. On the other hand, bringing them back to US will be hazardous to your own freedom. Some how our "friendly country" doesn't treat security as serious as we do. I've even seen ICOM SINCGARS for sale in Japan.

If you take you radio apart and find a small card at the very front bottom that say: "CCI- Special handling procedures required -call :1-800-etc. Then you probably have the module still in the radio. And if you do, you would be wise to contact someone at your local FBI office.

Hello.

I have been able to follow up on the strange dual band portables, BORTAC and all.
What they are, single band radios with a dual front-end, this is normally another radio in the same band, however, in this case the RX is in another band.
The radios are crystal bound.
I have seen this type of thing in T-power, as well as micor, but never in a portable.
The radios are NOT FCC type approved, they have a hole drilled in the center of the case when they are made surplus, there are only a few left in service that will be replaced fully with BORTAC.
They have the tone option for PAC-RT, however, PAC-RT is no longer in use.
NiCad batteries are removed and recycled, TCXOs are removed, then they are made into paperweights, they have no crypto.
They are bigger than the Expo, smaller than MX300/STX, what they really are?.

Thank You.

Elroy Jetson wrote:Fascinator encryption has a distinctive spectral "fingerprint" as well, so if you got the equipment and were able to get a key loaded, and began using it, an FCC field lab would identify it by its signature and trouble would probably follow. Pursuit of unauthorized use of Type 1 encryption would undoubtedly be given highest priority.

Elroy

Wow, what an old thread - nice stuff to be digged out during a boring sunday :-)

I wonder what this fingerprint should look like - up to now all the Motorola encyption securenet stuff looked identical to a listener without having the right code. Is fascinator different from the usual 12kbit/sec stuff? I am asking this because I have seen and tested some strange encryption modules, and I suspect they could be CCIs..

Speaking of Fascinator...

Everyone's favorite seller of surplus Astro gear has a Saber-R so equipped up on the 'bay. Item # is 290068928535.

Only 2 hours left.. anyone feeling brave?

motorola_otaku wrote:Speaking of Fascinator...

Everyone's favorite seller of surplus Astro gear has a Saber-R so equipped up on the 'bay. Item # is 290068928535.

Only 2 hours left.. anyone feeling brave?

No problem at all! But I guess shipping it to germany will be denied :-)

motorola_otaku wrote:Speaking of Fascinator...

Everyone's favorite seller of surplus Astro gear has a Saber-R so equipped up on the 'bay. Item # is 290068928535.

Only 2 hours left.. anyone feeling brave?

Wow, I guess they left a sticker on...... I would hope they actually pulled the module.

Hmm... I've only had DoD investigators pull up and go into my house once. Twice is the charm?