A few MSF5000 Questions...

[Sikdmax]

Looking at picking up a few MSF5000s in the near future after a dept is upgrading their equipment. Never have owned an MSF before, so not too well versed on how things work.

Did some reading on the model specific page, and it appears there are two versions - one being a CLB version ( I assume this is in the model number) programmable only with the 1801 suitcase, and the newer CXB version which can be programmed with a 4008 Rib, MSF cable and RSS... is this correct?

Sounds like I wouldn't want to mess with the older CLB version, but the CXB would be worth purchasing/investigating. What other things should I check/look for on these units? Any equipment that is often removed or integral to the equipments function that could be removed leaving me up a creek with no paddle, etc?

Whats the value of a UHF or VHF MSF5000 in the used market right now?

Thanks very much for all insight!

[d119]

You've clearly done your homework, as this you are exactly correct on all points.

I've never seen any of them with anything critical removed, but that's not to say that it couldn't happen. Luckily, parts for MSF series stations are plentiful, and generally inexpensive, which is a major plus as it's not a big deal to stock spare parts to keep them running if a failure ever occurs.

Don't be strayed from the CLB stations, either. There are PLENTY of folks here on the board who can program the EPROM for you to your specifications. I am one of them. There are a few quirks to each of the stations, especially the CLB's. If you do buy a CLB, be prepared to change out a few very inexpensive, easy-to-find capacitors to save yourself some serious headache (like I'm dealing with on one 6W station) in the future. CLB stations can be converted to CXB stations fairly easily, so that is an option as well.

The stations do have the propensity to develop the "tin whiskers" problem in the VCO's and front end preselectors, so do your homework on that problem over on repeater-builder.com.

Other than that, they are a fine station for wideband analog operation. They don't support narrowband, unfortunately, so would really only be good for amateur radio use. Narrowband kits can't be used, since the station was never type accepted for narrowband operation by the FCC (for use in commercial/public safety spectrum).

I've got an MSF 5000 that I've had running for the last 6 years or so, and I've never had a problem with it. It just grinds away on it's UHF amateur band frequency, eating up my electricity. I also have a VHF station running in the 2-meter band with an external controller, it too just sits there and does it's thing day after day. They consume a lot less power if you convert the power supplies to switched-mode units, but there are some caveats with PA voltages on some of the VHF stations (28v vs. 14v). Just check what it needs before you do it.

As far as value, I wouldn't pay more than $350-400 for a CXB station, nor more than $250-300 for a CLB. Really depends on the condition of the station, how far away it is (does it have to be shipped), what options/features are included (Securenet, Wildcard, MCS, DTMF, Data, etc.) and things like that. Most folks have no use for the option boards and generally pull them out and discard or sell them. I like to use them if I have them, I like things to be "stock" where ever possible.

With the prices of Quantar stations constantly falling due to used units coming out of service and being available on the used market, MSF 5000 prices have drastically fallen due to the fact they do not support P25, they use their share of electricity, and they are considerably larger than newer stations.

Don't forget, however, that MSF does stand for "Maximum Station Flexibility", and they are unquestionably that.

Hope this helps!

[Sikdmax]

Wow excellent - thanks!

Yes, the intended use for these units would be in the amateur band. Good to know that suitcase programmers are still out there in use and I could send off EPROMs to someone to get that taken care of instead of needing to move around the whole repeater. Some component replacement is no issue, thanks for the heads up.

Looks like eBay has a lot of these units for sale from $500-1000... Im assuming they arent big movers anymore due to the wideband issue. Does that seem an appropriate pricerange for a complete unit in good condition?

[d119]

I think you could find one cheaper than that if you're patient. Keep in mind, you're going to pay an arm and a leg for shipping on something like that, and you'll be lucky if it arrives in one piece internally.

I bought one from a gent in another state years ago and had it shipped, and it was a mess inside when it arrived. Luckily nothing was seriously damaged and I was able to properly reassemble it and make it work.

They aren't big movers primarily because of the shipping issues surrounding them as I've stated above. Plus the economy is in the can, and the only real market is either the US amateur band, or overseas where there is no NBFM mandate.

[Sikdmax]

Gotcha. I will actually be purchasing these locally (it seems now if only at a good price) so shipping to me wouldnt be an issue - but I will keep it in mind for delivery.

Thanks again D119! Im all ears if anyone else has any info.

[motorola_otaku]

The used market is completely out of line with the pricing on these stations. I personally wouldn't pay more than a couple hundred for a CLB station and maybe $300 for a CXB station if it was in good shape. Try to get one with a battery revert power supply if you can; they can be identified by a second circuit board on top of the regulator board and a Molex connector coming off the same terminals as the PA power, or off their own terminals in later versions.

One problem I have continually run into is the passthrough connectors on the RF chassis getting corroded and killing the station's transmit capability. Bob (kcbooboo) says they can be cleaned but I have yet to find a tool or chemical that can do it - even when every last trace of black gunk is removed from the pins installing them in a station will kill its transmit. It's almost as bad as the "time-bomb" capacitors in Spectras. What's even worse is, I'm losing stations just leaving them sitting in the garage - I resurrected a batch of old 80s-vintage CLB UHF stations with passthrough filters salvaged from scrapped 800 radios, and after sitting for only a few months I'd go back and try to retune them only to find that the transmit was dead. So make sure the station transmits rated power BEFORE buying, and remove the passthrough filters and store them someplace moisture-free and climate-controlled if it doesn't go into immediate use.

Other than that, the only other issue I have ever had is the 5V VCO power supply going south and inducing VCO drift and a bad audible hum on transmit. On a CXB station the 5V supply resides on the interconnect board underneath the RF chassis, and in a CLB station it's derived from the 5V supply on the station control board.

[kcbooboo]

Regarding pass-through filters, I found that a brass bristle brush worked well to dislodge whatever was building up. The individual filters look like they have some solder holding the pin in at each end, but I think that stuff is meant to be an insulator, so I just attacked it from all angles. I also scraped that surface with a small sharp knife. It's difficult to get to all areas, especially between the rows of pins.

Something else that might work is a long dunk in a liquid metal cleaner such as Tarn-X. It comes in a brown plastic bottle and is available at most supermarkets with the other metal cleaning products. That tends to get rid of tarnish but it might not attack the buildup on the filters unless you cut through it first.

After removing the filter assembly, measure each pin to ground with a good DMM ohm-meter. You want more than 20 megohms on each pin, ideally infinity. A regular Simpson 260 VOM won't go high enough. Once you identify the offending pin, you can devote a lot more effort to just that one. Of course if the filter itself has shorted internally, all the cleaning in the world won't fix it. I suppose there's no easy workaround. The filters are most likely NLA. You could drill out the shorted or leaky pin and make something to fit (even a loose piece of wire is better than nothing).

Bob M.

[Sikdmax]

Well, I ended up purchasing 2 units. It appears they are 100watt UHF MSF5000 Digital Capable repeaters, and have some add on modules as well. They both power up and the green LEDs for TX and RX lock light and display mode 1 channel 1... all seems to be in order.

I have a MSF5000 Programming Cable on the way (not OEM), and will play around in the RSS when that arrives. Anything stand out in these pictures to the trained eyes here?

Also - in one of the pictures Im missing the plastic surround for the 4 LEDs and switch on the left side of the control section - if anyone has one of those for sale or knows a part number (if its sold separately.... :/ ) please let me know... thanks very much for the assistance!

[d119]

Yeah - You have the MCS board, so you can do multiple PL's if you so desire.

What part of the country did these come from, if I may?

[Sikdmax]

City of Santa Clarita, CA. Their PD and FD is contracted to LA County, from looking at their FCC licenses and some freq databases it seems like these were used for Public Works/Transit comms, and I found out they went to MotoTRBO early this year, so it makes sense.

[d119]

OK. The station you have is rated 435-475MHz. Any higher in frequency, and you'd have ended up with a T-band unit and a lot of headache.

If I can help with anything, I'm not all that far away.