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Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

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HQRADIOHQ
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Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby HQRADIOHQ » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:15 pm

Hi.

I have a HT1250 and have couple of freq's on it, in the 'normal' zone that i use on a daily basis i have 1 channel that im able to transmit but i donot work for that fire company so i dont listen or have my radio on that freq much.
now, i mistakenly keyed in on that freq and heard some type of MDC signalling going on on that freq and... BOOM.... my radio is off since....

I'm wondering if theres anything i can do to have my radio back up and runnning?
i have the latest software, rib and cables...

please let me know asap

thanks!

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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby NSPD » Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:11 pm

Sounds like your radio has been inhibited. Contact the agency that killed it and explain why you need it un-inhibited, and they can help you out.
Jake

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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby HQRADIOHQ » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:53 am

Thanks for the reply,
is there a way that i can fix it myself? i 'can' go to that agency but id rather not.....
how'd they fix it? and how did they do it?!?!

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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby Wowbagger » Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:52 am

"how did they do it?!?!"
It's a part of the trunking protocol: there is a message that they can send that tells your radio "BANG! You're DEAD." Upon receiving that message, the radio stores some information in non-volatile memory about who sent the message, and that the radio is not to operate. When you turn the radio on, one of the first things that happens is that the radio checks that chunk of memory, and if it is set, the radio shuts down.

"how'd they fix it?"
The folks that send the message to the radio connect to the radio, and they send an un-inhibit message with a code that matches the one in the kill message. The radio will the erase that bit of non-volatile storage and resume normal operation.

Short answer: if you are not authorized on a system, do not monitor it with a subscriber radio - use a scanner.

(also: Look at your keyboard. See those 2 keys with the upward pointing arrow, and the word "Shift" on them? It makes your writing easier to read, and makes you look more intelligent, if you start using those keys.)
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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby wx4cbh » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:28 am

Is everybody missing the point or am I? An HT1250 is NOT a trunking radio, it is a conventional analog FM only device, so how can it be "inhibited?"
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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby trumpetman12 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:05 am

You can inhibit a radio via MDC1200 over conventional (also over LTR). Same with transmitting an emergency and a few other commands that slip my mind.

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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby wx4cbh » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:43 am

Well, howdeedo, in all the 1250s I programmed in years past I never had the occasion to even think of the inhibiting thing, and I got stuck on wowbagger's post referring to trunking. Never was much of a fan of those radios anyway, but now I recall the MDC protocols. Re-learn something new everyday. Guess I should read posts more thoroughly.
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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby FireCpt809 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:30 am

And this is why we should not put TX in radios on departments freqs we dont need to be txing on. They obviously have a set list of MDC ID's and your radio is not one so they zapped it. If its an honest mistake why not ask them to uninhibit it? If you dont care for the department then why have their freq in your radio?
Last edited by FireCpt809 on Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby Tom in D.C. » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:21 pm

Tip to those who still don't "get" the point of all this: If you're monitoring an FM PS channel and your radio won't let you set the transmit to BLANK, set the transmit to a MURS channel on VHF, or some itinerant channel on UHF, like 469.55. That way you'll never get busted for unauthorized use. If you're a ham you could also set up for 146.55, for instance, or 446.00, on transmit as well. Another point to be made if you do this is that if your radio is stolen the bum who stole it can't cause any problems for the agency you're monitoring.
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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby thebigphish » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:35 pm

...this is why the CPS for the Pro series has an RX only checkbox.
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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby chrismoll12 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:32 pm

What if this said inhibited radio did not have an MDC ID? Then what?

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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby NSPD » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:11 pm

chrismoll12 wrote:What if this said inhibited radio did not have an MDC ID? Then what?


It doesn't work that way... if the radio got inhibited via MDC, it had to have had an MDC ID programmed. You can inhibit a radio via MDC as long as the radio has an ID set (which it has to, even if it's 1234) and MDC signalling is set for at least receive, regardless of whether or not a PTT ID is being transmitted, although in this case that sounds unlikely. This can be disabled in the CPS by unchecking the "Radio Inhibit" box.

It can be fixed, but it's a complicated process requiring a lot of special hardware. Bottom line... you need to go to that agency and have them un-inhibit the radio.
Jake

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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby motorola_otaku » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:39 am

Can't a radio that's been MDC-inhibited be un-inhibited by any console capable of sending the command?
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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby AEC » Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:01 am

I have never heard of a radio being inhibited via MDC, with a radio that either does not have MDC programmed, or is not flashed for this signaling option.
All the literature in the manuals, and CPS for that matter, require MDC to be selected, or you can not select the radio inhibit feature.
When I looked into the CPS, I see the radio inhibit feature, but can not select it if MDC is not selected as well.
One other area you might look at is the remote radio and trace option, but I think that was never an option for the HT1250, at least I do not see it on my version of CPS.
The only way you could possibly have been inhibited, is if you DO have MDC, but NOT in conventional mode, but in LTR trunked.
If it IS selected in trunked signaling options, then yes, you can be inhibited, just not via conventional operation, the command may have been sent through a frequency programmed in trunked mode.

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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby radioeng462 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:44 pm

I have tried to even find the option in CPS for radio inhibit. I have a HT1250 LS+ that is authorized on a LTR system with no MDC ID set. Does anyone know where the inhibit check box is located in CPS?

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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby MassFD » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:40 pm

AEC, are you saying that a radio cannot be inhibited in conventional mode, I am not sure about the ht 1250 but an mt 2000 can be inhibited in conventional mode. It requires that the radio has MDC enabled and an MDC id programmed (the console needs an ID to send the inhibit to). As along as the radio does not have the disable disabled in CPS it can be disabled.

When we first installed our Zetron 4000 console I spent a day playing with the disable commands as well as radio check, it does work in conventional mode.

Only problem I found is that the console realy needs 4 wire full duplex audio to do radio check as in 2 wire mode it misses the return from the portable as the mt 2000 answers the check way to fast for the console and a 2 wire TRC to hear.

Do not know for sure if the same console that did the inhibit needs to do the uninhibit but it must be done in the same frequency as I think the RX is locked (but muted) on the inhibit frequency. I do not think our console sends any code that would lock the inhibit only to our console onlu the frequency.
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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby WB6DGN » Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:02 am

Let's see, here. From the comments above, MDC was enabled and INHIBIT was enabled. The radio was programmed to transmit on a frequency for which it [i]apparently[i] is not authorized. Furthermore, the owner(?) states that he does not want to go to the agency which inhibited it to get it cleared. For me, this begs the questions; (1) who programmed the radio? (2) why was TRANSMIT, MDC and INHIBIT enabled when, apparently, that channel was not even authorized? and, most importantly (3) Who actually owns this radio??? All very confusing!
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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby mmckenna » Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:15 am

Exactly. This didn't pass the sniff test. I can't see how one accidental key up resulted in this. Based on the fact the original poster hasn't responded, likely because there wasn't an easy solution, I'm thinking there is a LOT more to this story.

I can only hope this is the same individual who has been causing issues over in this area.
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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby HLA » Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:20 am

There has to be more to the story or it's just a coincidence. I've been programming those radios since they came out and there is nowhere in the cps about being able to inhibit it and nowhere in any literature about it so I think it's safe to say this radio is not capable of it. No doubt in my mind that this person should not of been on that freq but it's not like there is somebody on the other side sitting wth their finger on the button, it don't happen that fast, if any radio gets inhibited, it's because it's been used many times and the department finally caught on to them. I'll bet it's a coincidence and the radio crapped out, not inhibited. I'd start checking fuses or a different battery?
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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby wavetar » Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:04 pm

HLA wrote: I've been programming those radios since they came out and there is nowhere in the cps about being able to inhibit it and nowhere in any literature about it so I think it's safe to say this radio is not capable of it.


Hmmm, the HT1550XLS is capable of it, for a fact. I also know the Commerical Series radios can be inhibited for a fact, even though it's not listed as a feature for the 200 models at least. You can't turn it on/off in the CPS, it's just always enabled. I haven't tried to inhibit a 1250, but I'd be surprised if it couldn't be inhibited.
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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby NE2WAY » Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:13 pm

HLA wrote:No doubt in my mind that this person should not of been on that freq but it's not like there is somebody on the other side sitting wth their finger on the button, it don't happen that fast, if any radio gets inhibited, it's because it's been used many times and the department finally caught on to them.


If the department is using a cimarron decoder with the optional "Ambush" Feature enabled it could easily have killed his radio as soon as he transmitted.

“Ambush” permits user to tell the C Plus to send a message to a unit as soon as the unit is heard from again. This allows the preparation of radio-kill or selective call messages even when the target radio is turned off or out of communication range.

Typically if a department is having an issue with someone who is unknown to them keying up their channel or causing interference this is an easy solution to take care of the issue.

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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby Spiffy50 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:43 pm

Yes, a 1250 can be inhibited. Played around a bit with a console once and was able to inhibit/restore one just fine.

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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby twowayradiony » Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:34 am

The CDM1250,HT1250,CM,PM,PR,XTS series and many others can all be easily killed with a push of a button. In the CDM,HT,PR radios it is not an options you an select to turn of. If the radio has MDC12000 it can be disabled.

The best bet is to take it to the department who stunned it and try to plead your case to them. Your unwillingness to do that leads me to believe that there is more to the story/

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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby HLA » Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:27 am

ok let's say that is true but mdc is set to 000A but not set to transmit it? Or how would they stun a radio that they didn't know a ID? I still stick with it's very unlikely, they don't sit with their finger on the button for one mistake, i'll still bet it's a radio issue? So where can I find literature on how to inhibit a ht1550?
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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby Spiffy50 » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:59 am

Makes you wonder what would happen if you sent the wildcard (FFFF) as an inhibit command.

The Centracom console can generate a Stat-Alert inhibit command over MDC. That's how I nuked the one I played with.

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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby FireFighter162 » Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:22 am

Can one mobile inhibit another, or can only the console? I have only seen it on trunk systems I have worked on never on conventional systems. It would be great for those radios that go "missing" and then you get some pain keying up all the time.

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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby turtle9832 » Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:27 am

In an answer to HLA, our centracom gold shows the radio ID NUMBER (000001871) if there is not an alias set in the alias database manger. In the drop down for ID's, it shows about the last 15 or so radios that have keyed up. Go down to the MDC number you want to shut down then select "disable." Again, if our operators see an ID number (not an alias) they're are told to disable the radio if it appears to be a suspicious broadcast.

As for the HT1250, in the conventional personality tab, there is a tab for signalling. If none is selected, I beleive it will not decode any signalling (radio check, remote monitor, etc.). There has to be an MDC sytem set in"RX" for the radio to decode MDC. I cant experiment because our ht1250's are vhf. None of our vhf resources in the CCGE have a signaling card. All of UHF resources do have signaling.

i did an experiment with two UHF HT1000's.

In the channel configuration menu on radio #1, I set MDC/STAR/ATIS to enable. This radio did enable disable, radio check, and alerting.
In the channel configuration menu on radio #2, I set MDC/STAR/ATIS to disable. This radio would NOT enable disable, radio check, or alerting.

I know that HT1000's and HT1250's are very different radios, however, I believe the concept of MDC decoding and data operated squelch are the same for any radio.

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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby HLA » Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:48 am

for the 1250's and 1550's you can disable all signaling on the tx side and veriry that with a scope and same thing on rx. And since it can't decode multiple systems you can set rx to QC and that should render all mdc turned off? I was just always under the impression that theese were not capable of that, i've googled it and can't find even a link to anything. Is there literature from a console anywhere?
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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby twowayradiony » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:02 pm

Correct The radios will not accept the "Stun" Command unless MDC1200 is set to receive also.

If MDC1200 is enabled on the receive side it will automatically accept the stun command you can not disable this feature.
You do not have to have a console radio to send stun commands.

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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby chartofmaryland » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:16 am

This is very fishy,

The posting here stinks of someone not authorized to be in possession of a radio on said system. The terrible stench is the radio was programmed to match the agency system to a "T" as MDC decode and encode would had to have been turned on to start the process then to accept the stun or kill command. Not a step taken by those who wish to monitor an agency radio system and not cause a fuss or loose a perfectly good radio to a stupid move.

Reminds me of the ole' "hey buddy, can you program my personal radio too? Oh I don't have an ID for my radio, ummm, how about 1234? " with the outcome spoken here.

By the count of only 2 posts from this "new user" he is in need of both a new radio, and more experience with either having things programmed for him or programming radios himself.

Look for a 1250 on eBay with "Doesn't turn on, but works GREAT!"

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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby AEC » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:20 pm

wx4cbh wrote:Is everybody missing the point or am I? An HT1250 is NOT a trunking radio, it is a conventional analog FM only device, so how can it be "inhibited?"


It depends if the radio is an 'LS+' version or not, then yes, it is a trunked radio, albeit, LTR format, which does have signaling capability, such as MDC.
My MDC option only functions in LTR mode, but that is enough to get the radio inhibited if there is a frequency programmed that is part of a different repeater, trunked or not.
If MDC is enabled in LTR use, then it is quite possibe to get the inhibit command and not be aware of it.

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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby HQRADIOHQ » Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:02 pm

Well, here's the story...

I took the radio to the Fire Company that inhibited it and now its back up and running, no changing Fuses etc...
The radio is a VHF, MDC enabled on TX and on RX, on Conventional mode, and no, the Radio ID was not 1234...

I actually do have a nice couple years experience with programming radios, and as 'most' of you here, I have never heard of 'Inhibiting' a HT1250.
I was just wondering if there was a way to 'unhibit' it myself, that's all...

To all the guy's here that tried to 'help': Thanks!
Everyone else: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm out.

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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby K8TEK » Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:54 am

HQRADIOHQ wrote:Well, here's the story...

I took the radio to the Fire Company that inhibited it and now its back up and running, no changing Fuses etc...
The radio is a VHF, MDC enabled on TX and on RX, on Conventional mode, and no, the Radio ID was not 1234...

I actually do have a nice couple years experience with programming radios, and as 'most' of you here, I have never heard of 'Inhibiting' a HT1250.
I was just wondering if there was a way to 'unhibit' it myself, that's all...

To all the guy's here that tried to 'help': Thanks!
Everyone else: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm out.

Obviously you need to read up on programming a personality for receive only.
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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby mmckenna » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:21 am

Glad to hear you got it working. I'm curious about the accidental key up though. Was it a short accidental key up, or were you sitting on the mic causing a extended transmission? I'm just curious to know how quickly they reacted to this. Usually it's only habitual offenders that get inhibited like this, at least that's the way it works here.
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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby HLA » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:45 pm

just curious, while it was inhibited, were you still able to read or write to the radio or was it just dead? And i'd still like to know if anyone has literature on this or a link to anything?
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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby HQRADIOHQ » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:38 pm

1) I was sitting on the radio when it keyed in, Yes I shouldn't of been on that freq, but I guess I learnt...
2) I was able to read it, but I couldn't write anything to it.
It had some type of error, I was also wondering if there's a way to force a radio-write, without the CPS having to check the radio for let's say serial/model number.
But now its working. Thanks all

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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby mmckenna » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:51 pm

OK, thanks for the update.
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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby Bill_G » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:56 pm

I would disable signalling on that channel.

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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby AL7OC » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:13 pm

Hope that this isn't too far OT...

I have MDC signaling enabled on some ham frequencies so that we can use the SELCALL features. I have radio inhibit disabled in MDC (and P25) under MDC system settings and in secure mode settings. I found radio inhibit there under the OTAR settings, and OTAR is disabled as well.

Bottom line - with radio inhibit disabled, am I correct that I can use MDC/P25 signalling without having to worry about someone drinking around and inhibiting my radios?

Thanks...
Pierre

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HQRADIOHQ
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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby HQRADIOHQ » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:15 pm

Does anyone here know of a way to force a codeplug into a radio? I'm wondering if that would work...

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wavetar
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Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby wavetar » Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:13 pm

HLA wrote:just curious, while it was inhibited, were you still able to read or write to the radio or was it just dead? And i'd still like to know if anyone has literature on this or a link to anything?


Oh for...here, it was the second link in a google search for "HT1550XLS"

http://www.motorola.com/web/Business/Pr ... csheet.pdf

First page, bottom right hand corner states:

Selective Radio Inhibit (Decode)
Allows system owner to disable stolen or
missing radios

You can do this with even a very low end 'console' such as an MC2000 or even an old C200 with Stat Alert package.
No trees were harmed in the posting of this message...however an extraordinarily large number of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.

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N6LAU
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What radios do you own?: Talkabout-250 w/ P25 Phase 2

Re: Radio accedently keyed in to a wrong freq, radio DEAD

Postby N6LAU » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:22 am

HQRADIOHQ wrote:Does anyone here know of a way to force a codeplug into a radio? I'm wondering if that would work...



With the right "tools" it can be done. I believe using the codeplug tool from the Waris Lab Upgrade Kit to dump in a default s-record that matches the TANAPA of the target radio would do the trick. The s-record would need to be edited to the proper serial of the radio (unless you want a 123ABC etc. serial number) and to avoid having to do a manual re-align tuning data would need to be saved first (not sure if you can pull it from an inhibited radio) so it can be dumped back in post s-record change.

But you shouldn't need to do this, right, as the radio has already been fixed?
Joe - N6LAU


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