Using a Mitrek as an emergency remote paging base

[ICEMANTIM]

Hello I have a question about using an old Motorola Mitrek as a emergency paging system. I have a Mitrek that is working a standard two way radio right now. Rx151.115 Tx 159.115. I am thinking of duplexing the radio and changing the RX to 151.200 and TX 155.220. We have a antenna on the top of the water tower in out village. I would use a Motorola CM300 to transmit the tones to the Mitrek on 151.200 and it would retransmit on 155.200. I think this would work what does anyone think and what kind of trouble would we have. The station tower is only 30 feet and the water tower is 150 that why we don't just do it form the station. This would only be used as a backup when the main county paging is down. Also does anyone think i would need to retune the radio since the freq's are so close.

Thanks for the help.
Tim

[SteveC0625]

Hello I have a question about using an old Motorola Mitrek as a emergency paging system. I have a Mitrek that is working a standard two way radio right now. Rx151.115 Tx 159.115. I am thinking of duplexing the radio and changing the RX to 151.200 and TX 155.220. We have a antenna on the top of the water tower in out village. I would use a Motorola CM300 to transmit the tones to the Mitrek on 151.200 and it would retransmit on 155.200. I think this would work what does anyone think and what kind of trouble would we have. The station tower is only 30 feet and the water tower is 150 that why we don't just do it form the station. This would only be used as a backup when the main county paging is down. Also does anyone think i would need to retune the radio since the freq's are so close.

Thanks for the help.
Tim

I don't think the Mitrek will do 12.5 Khz emissions which, if you are thinking of using it for any Part 90 applications, will be thoroughly illegal in 20 days.

[com501]

Correct.

In 20 days the radio becomes illegal to use in the USA unless on specific frequencies not subject to narrowbanding. The channel you mentioned is not one of them.

[ICEMANTIM]

Thanks for the reply, i know the radio will not be narrow banded. That why we have them setting around. I don't care about that right now if at all. This would only be use if at all once in 5 or 10 years. The current system has only been down one time for about 6 hours in the last 15 years. Being on the western side of the county there is no back up. I just want to know it the radio will do what we want it to in the slim chance we need it before we get some kind of back up working. That is in the works but it will be at least 3 years before the system is up and running.

[com501]

Are you OK with putting your job and your department in a liability stance?

What part of this: "radio becomes illegal to use in the USA unless on specific frequencies not subject to narrowbanding. The channel you mentioned is not one of them.", did you miss?

Go to that big auction site and buy a CDM750, or an M1225. Cheap, reliable and narrowband compliant. You have until the end of the year (unless you have a waiver from the FCC -or you believe in the Mayans) to get that old wideband stuff off the air.

Liability for your department is not a pretty thing, if the FCC Field Engineers come around. I am assuming you have already modified your licenses, that needs to be done also if you haven't. For the price of a cheap Walmart TV you can get legal. Is it really worth it to NOT do it?

We did this before in the 60's. It was like pulling teeth back then, too, except that new radios were solid state and departments got the oooohhhh-aaaaaahhhh factor more easily and got rid of their stovepipes.

[Tom in D.C.]

The OP is running a paging system, and therefore I would assume that the system
is not subject to narrowbanding. Or is it because of the specific frequencies in use?

[SteveC0625]

The OP is running a paging system, and therefore I would assume that the system
is not subject to narrowbanding. Or is it because of the specific frequencies in use?

155.220 is part of the PW frequency group that is clearly subject to the narrowband mandate. I'd guess that 99% or better of all public safety and state and local government operated paging systems are NOT using the exempted paging channels.

[ICEMANTIM]

First of all some of you need to get off your high horse about the narrow banding. I know of a few department in my area that have not gotten new radios and will not be in complaint for sometime. They don't have the money to replace all there radios. They are working on it but it will take them 3 or 4 years. I don't think they are concerned about the fine since there yearly budget is only about $11,000.00 anyway. I don't believe closing down a fire department will go over very well with the locals since they don't have the money anyway. I just want to know if it will work. I already have a CDM1250 that will be used to transmit the paging tone, i just need a way temporarily to repeater the page from the 150 tower. We only have access to it a few times a week. The tower at the FD is only 30 feet and will not reach out the 12 miles i need it to reach to out. I have the Mitrek and the channel elements already. I don't want to spend any money on it since it will be getting replace by the end of 2013 anyway. We just need something for one year, we already talked about it and they don't care about the narrow banding. This will only be in an emergency anyway if the system is down. I already know the FCC grants permission for people to use radios and frequencies that you normally can not use in and emergency. Since all the replies have not answer my question i will look else where. Yes i know it will not be narrow banded and yes we don't care about it.

[DJP126]

Hello I have a question about using an old Motorola Mitrek as a emergency paging system. ... Also does anyone think i would need to retune the radio since the freq's are so close.

Thanks for the help.
Tim

You would definitely have to retune the transmitter and I would recommend retuning the receive. As for how well a Mitrek would work or problems you might face........your guess is as good as mine.

[com501]

Narrowbanding has been mandated for 10 years. Why are people like the OP waiting until the last second to realize they have a problem?

[ICEMANTIM]

Narrowbanding has been mandated for 10 years. Why are people like the OP waiting until the last second to realize they have a problem?

Thanks for the reply. I will have the Local M dealer retune it for us. They are fairly good about doing work for us. As far as waiting until the last minute to change i guess you have to be in that departments shoes before you can speak on it. They get $11,000.00 a year with out any fund raisers. The new radios are way down on their list but they are working on it. I know a department in the same county who's drink (and not just Soda) budget is probably that much. Funding for them is a big problem. They got a grant a few year back to get a new Pumper. They almost lost the grant because they just about could not come up with matching funds. So you see sometimes its not just as easy as buying Stuff. My department has been good for about 5 years. We have 80 radio but got help from a local manufacture as a donation from a fire he had. I am sure there a many department with funding problems and narrow banding is not high on there list. I had one of the Local M Dealers tell me off the record, What are they going to do they have nothing so what can they take.

[com501]

They may not be able to fine you, but they can PUT YOU OFF THE AIR. For those that fail to narrowband their transmitters, I suspect that the FCC is just waiting until after the first of the year to do some 'budget enhancement'. What you do is ultimately your choice, but you need to be aware of the consequences, and the legal ramifications of not being compliant. Liability is a great deal of trouble, if a public safety professional or the general public is harmed and it can be shown that not all your ducks were in a row.

Just sayin'.

[escomm]

I think the specter of FCC enforcement is toothless at this point. First of all, the FCC has stated they will rely on complaints for enforcement. Nobody complains, nobody enforces. Second, Ralph Haller was quoted in a recent trade magazine as saying his belief was 25-30% of all Part 90 licensees would be non-compliant on 1/1/13. We know the FCC has not hired noticeably more staff to handle license processing, it stands to reason they haven't hired more for enforcement, either. Haller also said he believed the FCC would be slapping people on the wrist for the first several months of the year and would not be issuing fines. Haller used to work for the FCC so I take what he says with credibility.

Still, does not provide an excuse to not follow the rules, but the sky is not falling and the world is not ending (at least not on 1/1/13, if we're still around after 12/21/12 that is .....=)

However, I would highly recommend all licenses get modified, or have applications for modification submitted, prior to the end of the year, to avoid automatic cancellation. I think that is the biggest headache at this point.

[com501]

Having been on the receiving end of an enforcement action in the past, I prefer to not take any chances, nor would I recommend that to anyone else either.

Get away with it? Probably.

But is your lawyer OK with it? Probably not.

Can your corporation condone that activity? Absolutely not.

Best to just follow the rules...

[Bill_G]

Hello I have a question about using an old Motorola Mitrek as a emergency paging system. I have a Mitrek that is working a standard two way radio right now. Rx151.115 Tx 159.115. I am thinking of duplexing the radio and changing the RX to 151.200 and TX 155.220. We have a antenna on the top of the water tower in out village. I would use a Motorola CM300 to transmit the tones to the Mitrek on 151.200 and it would retransmit on 155.200. I think this would work what does anyone think and what kind of trouble would we have. The station tower is only 30 feet and the water tower is 150 that why we don't just do it form the station. This would only be used as a backup when the main county paging is down. Also does anyone think i would need to retune the radio since the freq's are so close.

Thanks for the help.
Tim

Tim - To answer your direct question - no, it will not work. Mitrek's cannot be duplexed to act as a repeater. You would have to McGuiver everything to make it work. It is better to find a simple RICK, and a pair of CDM's or M1225's to do the job. Lots of product and support for that configuration. You'll also need a duplexer (cavities). Hope that helps.

[Shuttle]

I am affiliated with a local voluntary fire department here in Finland.
I understand that putting out a lot of money can be difficult to get through. I did this a few years ago purchasing a lot of six GP330's including savox communation devices and impres batteries. It was about EUR6000. It took me a good two hours to convince our board that they are needed. We did the fundraising later by chopping trees and whatnot. It's how it's always been done.

However concerning your issue, ready packages go on fleaBay starting from $200. No, these do not include duplexers, but still.
We have an understanding to do everything we do legit. This includes everything from department parties where no minors are allowed at all because of the alcohol, up to having licenses for even our spare radios.

We feel to have an obligation to be an example for the community.

I hope the members of your community and/or department would have the courage to pool the few hundred bucks to at least make a new install legit.

Just my two euro cents,

Martin

[ICEMANTIM]

Hello Bill
Thanks that's wall i was asking. I was wondering since the local radio group is using a convert Mitrek as a VHF repeater i thought it could be done. I have a Rick also that i am not useing. I guess we will look for some older M1225 to do it. I have a few GM300's if it comes down to it but they are being used in for something else right now. And yes i know they are not narrow banded.

[wavetar]

Whatever radio you end up using as a back up transmitter, just tune the deviation down to 2.5KHz. No, the equipment will not be compliant, but the transmitting signal will be, so there won't be any complaints for the FCC to follow up on.

[chrismoll12]

Whatever radio you end up using as a back up transmitter, just tune the deviation down to 2.5KHz. No, the equipment will not be compliant, but the transmitting signal will be, so there won't be any complaints for the FCC to follow up on.

you're a rebel

[MassFD]

Whatever radio you end up using as a back up transmitter, just tune the deviation down to 2.5KHz. No, the equipment will not be compliant, but the transmitting signal will be, so there won't be any complaints for the FCC to follow up on.

Not untill they see the license is still wideband and cancel it. I hope some of the dept's around here ignore the narrowband modification and get canceled, we need a few more freqs to replace the T Band ones we are going to lose in the D Block trade off.

[Bill_G]

Whatever radio you end up using as a back up transmitter, just tune the deviation down to 2.5KHz. No, the equipment will not be compliant, but the transmitting signal will be, so there won't be any complaints for the FCC to follow up on.

you're a rebel

For most well maintained VHF Maxtracs I've run into (emphasis on well maintained), turning the mod and comp controls fully counter clockwise will land the dev in the 2.4khz range. Then volunteers that have to buy all their own gear can still sound okay in narrowband receivers within their agency until they can afford to buy radios that really are NB capable.

[ICEMANTIM]

Hello and thanks for the feed back about the tuning. To all the other we have had our license updated since 2005 or 2006. The paging Freq is controlled by the local sheriff's office. I believe they have just gotten theirs done this past summer. We know what we are doing just don't have the funds to complete it all. I did come across a gm300 which we will use for the receive. (the radios tranmit as not worked for some time not sure we kept it). Looking for a m1225 or a Narrow banded gm300 but there not many of them out there.

[SteveC0625]

Looking for a m1225 or a Narrow banded gm300 but there not many of them out there.

First, good luck with the project. I know some of us are lucky enough to work in agencies that have sufficient funds to deal with something like this, even on an 11th hour basis.

The M1225 isn't a bad radio for your purposes, but it's not as well built as the CDM's yet they are selling on the used market for darned near the same price. In particular, their heat sinking is not as robust as the CDM's by a significant difference. A legit narrowband GM300 is a true rarity; so much so that I'd venture that one would sell for much, much more than either the M1225 or a CDM.

A 50 watt CDM-750 would be pretty much the ideal transmitter for your job.

[candrist]

Everybody has already slaughtered you with the FCC threats so I will try to just answer your question.

The mitrek will work as a repeater. Amateur Radio Operators turn them into repeaters all the time. The one problem you might have is the paging signal being passed so that it can be decoded by the pagers. The Mitrek is Phase Modulated so it could affect the paging signal.

If you turn it down to 2.5k and it doesn't ever transmit until you can replace it you will probably be just fine until you have the money.

If you have lots of wideband equipment you may consider selling it on ebay to get the funds for some legal equipment. Amateur Radio Operators love this stuff.

Regards,

Chris

[Bill_G]

Everybody has already slaughtered you with the FCC threats so I will try to just answer your question.

The mitrek will work as a repeater. Amateur Radio Operators turn them into repeaters all the time. The one problem you might have is the paging signal being passed so that it can be decoded by the pagers. The Mitrek is Phase Modulated so it could affect the paging signal.

If you turn it down to 2.5k and it doesn't ever transmit until you can replace it you will probably be just fine until you have the money.

If you have lots of wideband equipment you may consider selling it on ebay to get the funds for some legal equipment. Amateur Radio Operators love this stuff.

Regards,

Chris

The difficulty with Mitreks is - (A) he needs to modify one , (B) they use rocks (channel elements) - he will need a source.

[ICEMANTIM]

Thanks Chris its something we just need for about year so i think i am going to try it. Duplexed it today just waiting on the channel elements from ICM. I also think i have sourced some of the corrct type of radios also.If know else some people got to stand on their soap box about the FCC. I also learned how to duplex the Mitrek radio. I just ask the question to see if i was wasting my time. The radio will be given to the local Ham group when we are done with it anyway. Thanks for the all the info