Part 90 repeater licensing resource?

[fogster]

Howdy,

I've had an R1225 kicking around the house for about a year now. I picked it up in a lot of used gear I bought a while back. I've tested it out on GMRS, but I find that I'm interested in trying to license a Part 90 frequency pair and set it up as a community repeater. (More just for the learning experience than any profit motive.)

I suspect a detailed discussion on what goes into that would be off-topic here. Is there somewhere that is a good resource for me to go read up on? I'm familiar with Repeater Builder, but I'm interested in things like Part 90 frequency coordination and FCC buildout requirements, which aren't really their focus. Short of sitting down and trying to read 47 CFR, Chapter 1, Subchapter D, Part 90 (*shudder*), where should I be looking?

[Osprey]

A good place to start is looking up licenses in your area on ULS, but what you mentioned will probably be insufficient justification to get granted a repeater license. With the usual disclaimers about this not being legal advice, it's my understanding that any commercial activity qualifies under 90.35(a)1.

[fogster]

Oh, that's a good point. I'd toyed with trying to resell access, either as a community repeater or a single-frequency LTR system, though I'm not sure how successful it would be. That intent might be adequate. (My sole proprietorship web hosting company probably doesn't need a repeater. )

I do have some experience poking around licenses, which is what got me here. But I wonder things like -- do I need to rent tower space before I get a license, or can I file for an allocation with coordinates near several adjacent towers, and then negotiate a rental once I have a license for that site? When the license is granted, how quickly does the site need to go up? (My understanding is that you're required to "build out" the site in some period of time or the FCC will cancel the license.) Do I try to select a frequency and get it coordinated, or do I tell the frequency coordinators a range and they pick an open frequency? And what does the whole shebang end up costing? I'm having a surprisingly hard time finding much discussion of this anywhere.

[Jim202]

Sorry, made a duplicate post.

[Jim202]

But I wonder things like -- do I need to rent tower space before I get a license, or can I file for an allocation with coordinates near several adjacent towers, and then negotiate a rental once I have a license for that site? When the license is granted, how quickly does the site need to go up? (My understanding is that you're required to "build out" the site in some period of time or the FCC will cancel the license.) Do I try to select a frequency and get it coordinated, or do I tell the frequency coordinators a range and they pick an open frequency? And what does the whole shebang end up costing? I'm having a surprisingly hard time finding much discussion of this anywhere.

Some feedback on tower rentals. The cellular market has caused tower rental cost to become very costly for the single antenna user. It has also caused most of the tower rental companies to basically be non responsive to most requests to place a single antenna on any of their towers. This in turn is becoming a white elephant for the tower leasing companies. Reason is that many of the really tall towers are becoming a ghost town, if I can use that term at the top of their towers.

These leasing companies are use to making big bucks from the cellular companies for minimum effort in the work it takes to do the lease. Look at it this way, which would you do? Spend an hour putting together a lease for $2400 to $3000 a month, or spend the same time on a lease for about $600 a month. These sales people are looking at their bank account for the commission and don't want to be bothered on the small change, single antenna lease.

The cellular companies are finding they need to have more capacity for calls. This has caused them to lower their antenna height and add more tower locations at the lower antenna height. Reason for this is the limited channel availability. So the only way to add more capacity is to lower antennas. This gives the cellular carrier the ability to re-use the channels closer together.

Another reason that you may see these tall towers going empty near the top third, is the change in the engineering strength requirements of towers today. Many of these tall towers were built 20 to 30 years ago under less rigid strength requirements. So as time goes on, these older towers can't pass engineering studies. Many of them are hollow tower leg type construction and are starting to rust from the inside out.

This whole series of events is causing a turmoil in the tower leasing industry. So now that you know the whole story, expect a quiet push back from most of the tower leasing companies.

You will need to be specific on the tower location when you apply for a radio license.

I am not trying to hijack this thread, but only answer your question and give you a heads up on what to expect and why.

Jim

[RadioRookie]

If you can show that it will be used for day to day business use, (basically any type of business that would have a need for two way radio communication) for profit or not, you stand a good chance of having a licence granted. The specific repeater site will need to be included in the application. I would suggest using a radio licensing firm. They will handle the coordination, application, etc. There's a fee though. I believe anywhere from $300.00 to $800.00 depending on what you're wanting

[Osprey]

Oh, that's a good point. I'd toyed with trying to resell access, either as a community repeater or a single-frequency LTR system, though I'm not sure how successful it would be. That intent might be adequate. (My sole proprietorship web hosting company probably doesn't need a repeater. )

Honestly, you'd be surprised. Peruse some of the itinerant licenses that were successful. "90.35A - Temporary communications support for special events". That's perhaps the vaguest thing I've ever read.

Do I try to select a frequency and get it coordinated, or do I tell the frequency coordinators a range and they pick an open frequency? And what does the whole shebang end up costing? I'm having a surprisingly hard time finding much discussion of this anywhere.

There are frequency coordinators that quote prices online, but I've never dealt with any of them. I went through a local radio shop a while back trying to see if something similar to this was feasible, and their prices reminded me that the IG service is intended for profit-making businesses. I'm really not trying to rain on your parade, honest. Frequency coordinators are businesses, and if you're willing to pay them I'm sure they'll be willing to file the paperwork.

[fogster]

I am not trying to hijack this thread, but only answer your question and give you a heads up on what to expect and why.

Not a hijack at all; I really appreciate this information.

Tinkering with this stuff a bit ago also got me looking, and it appears that there are some VHF frequencies still open in my metro area, and a really conveniently-placed hill sits at about 1200' HAAT. I drove up there one day and noticed some towers that were pretty lightly loaded, including a couple that I know are owned by companies that do tower rentals. So I was of half a mind to try to "defensively" license a frequency pair or two, and eventually set up a DMR repeater there. The UHF machines up there have great range; computer models for VHF are absolutely fantastic. (It's about 30 miles from here, and the paging transmitter up there comes in S9 +60dB here at my home in a valley. Of course, that might not be great for receive sensitivity up there!)

But these numbers really change the economics... I had initially figured maybe I could license a VHF pair and throw a repeater up there for giggles, and maybe eventually find a tow truck company or something to lease a talkgroup on it. It seems I'm missing the "take out a reverse mortgage to pay for tower space if they'll even bother to sell it to you" step.

[RadioRookie]

If you have a headache, someone's got a pill. I'm sure you can find a creative way around having a specific site for a repeater. As pointed out above, a temporary location could be used and later on if you found a permanent location you could amend your license. I have a license for a UHF RTK network that that I use for GPS guidance. One site is a permanent fixed tower using one frequency and transmitting at 75watts And the other "site" is a tripod with a different frequency transmitting at 5 watts that I'll move around from one site to another in order to draw boundaries around large tracts of open land.

[KitN1MCC]

I have done this on VHF using TRBO. I am lucky one of my friends and customer lives up on hill we put up a 55 foot wood pole and mounted a box to the outside. I get real decent coverage out of the things.

one of the nice things about trbo ohh can't put up one big booming repeater no problem. put a bunch of smaller ones around and link them

[gatekeep]

Honestly, you'd be surprised. Peruse some of the itinerant licenses that were successful. "90.35A - Temporary communications support for special events". That's perhaps the vaguest thing I've ever read.

This is the vaguest thing ever -- however its a valid use case for Individuals and Businesses (yes you can apply for a Part 90 frequency as an individual). Unless you intend on going on a tower; you can simply apply for itinerant frequency license (yes you can put repeaters on itinerants, think FB2I and MOI).

[Osprey]

But is FB2I operation permissible on property you own?

[gatekeep]

But is FB2I operation permissible on property you own?

FB2I is used to define a repeater that moves from place to place. So yes, it would be legal on your property. An FB2I is not intended to provide a HUGE area coverage. But more of a localized repeater system for an event, or what have you.

EDIT: I remind you that by the FCC's own rules; itinerant is meant to define radio systems, that move place to place and maybe on the air for an indeterminate amount of time.

[Osprey]

EDIT: I remind you that by the FCC's own rules; itinerant is meant to define radio systems, that move place to place and maybe on the air for an indeterminate amount of time.

Indeed, I just remember been told an itinerant license doesn't extend to fixed point operation. Simplex itinerant frequencies couldn't be used at a company's warehouse just because they've got an itinerant license for the jobsite.

[gatekeep]

EDIT: I remind you that by the FCC's own rules; itinerant is meant to define radio systems, that move place to place and maybe on the air for an indeterminate amount of time.

Indeed, I just remember been told an itinerant license doesn't extend to fixed point operation. Simplex itinerant frequencies couldn't be used at a company's warehouse just because they've got an itinerant license for the jobsite.

Understood. However, any operation at a "single" location can be defined as "fixed". The general purpose behind an itinerant is that you'll be moving around in a large geographical area potentially, but the rules themselves don't stipulate you cannot operate in a single location for an extended period. I don't recall the rules specifically prohibiting the operation of a itinerant license being used at a singular location. The FCC tends to be a bit more strict with itinerant licenses and if your 90.35A1 defined purpose, doesn't match the appropriate location range, they'll send the application back to be amended.