Securenet on Amateur radio - IT IS LEGAL!! If....

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nmfire10
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Post by nmfire10 »

And what does that have to do with anything?
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Post by fireradio »

nc5p wrote:I envision hams riding mountain bikes and horses with instant contact to the command post. Rangers summoned if anybody is seen in there.
Hmmm... I don't think the horses would like it very much if most hams I've seen tried to ride them... and I'd want a few ambulances on stand-by if hams were riding bikes....
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Post by sglass »

nmfire10 wrote:And what do you think the criminal is going to do when he sees you unarmed trotting along calling him in to the police?

dude

who says you'd be unarmed?
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Post by nmfire10 »

OK, with the exception of Seth who has a weapons cash that rivals some small third world countries, MOST of the Hams out there are NOT armed to the teeth. He also never suggested he would be doing "Armed Horseback Radio Patrol". What he is describing sounds like a Militia armed with antennas.
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Post by Cam »

nmfire10 wrote:OK, with the exception of Seth who has a weapons cash that rivals some small third world countries...
[rasing hand] Me

Well maybe not so crazy as sglass, but I think I could take care of some kid with a lighter. On the other hand I'm not a ham, so I guess that won't work.
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Post by Gerbil »

nc5p wrote:
And I envision you getting shot for some reason
I now see the wisdom in Mayor Chavez banning "COPS" from filming in Albuquerque. The whole country thinks this city is more dangerous than Bagdad.
it bloody is!
but what does that have to do with the topic(s) at hand?
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Post by 007 »

I didn't think Albakwerky was that bad... :-?

Interesting turn in this thread...here's my $0.02 since Medal Of Honor is making my head spin:

-Hams should not be anywhere without being requested. Period.

-Hams must have pre-recorded MOU's with served agencies that show the hams being covered by the served agencies insurance while requested for service.

-Hams that are requested for service need to be recording in and out times with the IC on scene, regardless of the group they are serving (public or private).

-Once the hams are signed in, they need to be assigned a certain task that THEY ARE TRAINED IN and only that task. If you have a bunch of un-trained, know-it-all hams trying to do things they are unfamiliar with, disaster will result. Unacceptable.

-Hams that serve public safety must have working knowledge of ICS. No excuses.

-I agree that COMPETENT hams should/could be trained by served agencies to do things like triage setup, checkpoints, traffic control and the like. If said trained hams need to display lights to acomplish said task, so be it....but ONLY when they are "in service". I do not agree with hams driving cars that are better equipped than the agency they serve...makes us all look VERY bad and like a bunch of wannabe's.

-Hams that serve requested agencies need to have proper radios and proper equipment. This seems to plague everyone....nobody seems to grasp the concept that their ricer HT's and stubby ducks WILL NOT work for 75% of the tasks they are requested for. I cannot understand why almost all hams do not understand the concept of a SPARE HT BATTERY. :evil:

(This is where the commercial vs. ricer flame would start....DON'T!)

Properly trained ARES/RACES hams can be very useful and very professional. The operative word here is TRAINED. Even with EmComm, I still have not seen this occuring....what is missing?

Thoughts welcome...
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Post by Gerbil »

jimmy. I agree with the general direction of your post.

Well, except for the lights part.
Its bad enough that the idiots we hire have lights. The last thing thats needed is a bunch of hams with lights. (without a legitamate purpose)

Also, hams shouldnt do important stuff like triage setup, checkpoints whatever. They should be there to run comms. Thats it.
Have other trained monkeys do those tasks.
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Post by 007 »

Gerbil wrote:
Well, except for the lights part.
Its bad enough that the idiots we hire have lights. The last thing thats needed is a bunch of hams with lights. (without a legitamate purpose)
The key word is legitimate...not everyone, and not all the time, needs or should have lights. There is a time and place, however. I agree completely that a bunch of yahoos with lights and gizmo's is bad.
Also, hams shouldnt do important stuff like triage setup, checkpoints whatever. They should be there to run comms. Thats it.
Have other trained monkeys do those tasks.
I was referring to these tasks with communications setup in mind, not necessarily complete set up of these items. Sorry for the unclear-ness of my thought. I'd rather have 4 trained professional hams handling checkpoints comm in/out of a triage area, than 4 cops from 3 agencies that can't talk to each or anyone else.

There are alot of good hams that could serve in a ARES-type role, but won't get involved because the riff-raff have taken these groups over and trashed the reputations of the groups within the community. Unfortunate, but true. I'm in this posistion now. If we open our mouths, we are assholes. If we try and train these people, we are dictators that are trying to run their lives. Most of the ARES hams around here act like liberal Hollywood stars, and haven't showered in weeks.

Right now my involvement with amateur radio is with the NWS group that does operations from the office during severe weather. My nerves can't take anyting else anymore. Some days I run the comms, some days I spot and some days I chase...much more calming than see 20 stinky hams :o up a comms activation for an agency.
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Post by sglass »

Gerbil wrote:jimmy. I agree with the general direction of your post.

Well, except for the lights part.

Why is this even a topic? If the agency wants you to have lights for some ungodly reason-they should have them in a supply room to issue them to you for the excercise/emergency.


otherwise there is NO reason to have it.
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Post by nc5p »

Aside from stereotyping hams as a bunch of severly obese, mentally deranged individuals, you still haven't convinced me that there is anything wrong with amateurs merely providing reconissance for public safety agencies. Fire season comes each year here and giving them a helping hand by being additional eyes, ears, and noses out in the field seems like a worthy endeavor to me. If a fire can be contained before it gets out of hand thousands of acres can be saved. The fire crews can't put it out if they don't know it's there. Mountain bikes and horses allow for covering a much larger area in these vehicle restricted lands than somebody on foot. I never said anything about lights and sirens on vehicles as they aren't even allowed in the first place. Not to offend anyone here but I don't want such apperatus on my truck.

I totally agree that training must be provided ahead of time by the host agency, that the volunteers check in and provide their location on a regular basis. If fire breaks out they need to get out of there immediately and let the wildfire professionals do their job. They must not act as authority figures if they run across individuals in a closed area, just report their presence to the rangers who have the authority to deal with them. I still think that the NOAA trained hams who go around chasing tornados all over the midwest face a lot more danger than this. I knew one in Minnesota who's car got hit.

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Post by nmfire10 »

I can see it now. A horse galoping through the woods with an amber rotator on it's head and LED's velcroed to it's ass patroling for juvenile delinquents.
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Post by SlimBob »

WC4RAV wrote: Like the "play cops" that like to tote their "police" radios, have their "lights" and other gear on their "bustomobile" but won't bother to go get certified and join a reserve program. You see, that takes work, dedication, and commitment...and most folks just are not that serious...so they just "play"....
Yeah, it's pretty difficult to schedule classes when you're working 9A-6P. And no, I'm not serious enough about ham radio to leave work during working hours to go sit in the severe weather office or any other such thing.

If it's a catastropic situation (i.e.: work has been suspended and I ain't got nuthin' better to do), I'll happily show up and take some direction. But the time and financial commitments are hard to swallow. This points on two, maybe three things -- most hams are out of shape nerds, less than half are retirees with nothing better to do, and the communications role has been outdated (by HIPPA, et al.) because NO ONE obeys The Communications Act of 1934 anymore as well as having a system for passing sensitive information.

one possible out on the crypto would be to have the message encrypted prior to sending and decrypted after reception -- and have someone other than the ham do the work so the ham just gets a garbled message to pass that comes out the other side ok.

yeah, I drive a bustermobile, I like my Motorola radios (come on, what's not to love about the Sabers?!) but I just drive on. I blackout at the sight of blood. No lights, and no siren.
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Post by SlimBob »

007 wrote: -Hams that serve requested agencies need to have proper radios and proper equipment. This seems to plague everyone....nobody seems to grasp the concept that their ricer HT's and stubby ducks WILL NOT work for 75% of the tasks they are requested for. I cannot understand why almost all hams do not understand the concept of a SPARE HT BATTERY. :evil:
My FT-50R does ok with an 1.1Ah NiMH battery back, but if it doesn't live in the charger, it'll be dead in three days or less. Granted, it will still stand up to a day's talk time, but it's no Saber :-)

(Can you tell I really want a Saber?)
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Post by Gerbil »

nmfire10 wrote:I can see it now. A horse galoping through the woods with an amber rotator on it's head and LED's velcroed to it's ass patroling for juvenile delinquents.
i dont know about a rotator... but the LED's are doable. :lol:
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Post by ASTROMODAT »

I agree---the Glock 21 is far superior to the Colt M1911.

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Post by Cam »

ASTROMODAT wrote:I agree---the Glock 21 is far superior to the Colt M1911.

Larry
But I would take a Sig 220 or even a HK USP over either.
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Post by sglass »

Cam22 wrote:
ASTROMODAT wrote:I agree---the Glock 21 is far superior to the Colt M1911.

Larry
But I would take a Sig 220 or even a HK USP over either.
I am looking down at my right side

what do I see

oh, it's a glock 20c

what on my left side

oh that would be 2 spare 15 round mags

you can keep your glock21, I'll take my 20c with hicaps any day

what other pistol packs the kind of wallop a 10mm does


oh I forgot the smith model 60 for backup

.357 of course


although I have owned a few glock21's, even converted one to fullauto-that was a cool gun in FA



back ot the topic of helping hams


guys nothing wrong with helping out, I'm more that happy to stop and help someone. Or volunteer my time when I can.

I don't know if you all do this out in your areas but the hams with 4wd vehicles used to help getting doctor and nurses and the like transporte4d during bad weather up this way.

now that is a service we can provide-no need for strobes either

if the weather is crappy enough, just kick on the emergency flashers and roll



the problem with alot of races/ares groups is that it becomes clickish. It's a shame though, I know alot of good people that wouldn't joint montgomery county races because of this.



seth (waving a saber around by the antenna to taunt people)
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Post by Gerbil »

sglass wrote: seth (waving a saber around by the antenna to taunt people)
my saber's bigger then your saber.
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Post by ExKa|iBuR »

It's not the size of the radio that counts, it's the flashcode :P

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Post by George »

I have been reading this whole thread in amusement as to the encryption thing. More than anything else, this thread has shown how people are too willing to read things into the rules that are simply not there. Here's how I see encryption, and let's keep in mind I run X9000's and Spectra's with DES.

The intent of encryption is to obscure the meaning of the transmission. Do we agree on that? Good. What is the requirement for not obscuring the meaning? How about publishing the key? Good idea. How do we do this? There are no rules for guidence. So rather than saying there are standards and rules were there are none, remember, amateurs cannot use encryption for the purpose of obscuring the transmission, right? So, what do we do? How do we use the mode of digitial voice that just happens to use a DES or DVP key to be able to understand what's being said? Easy! Publish the key schedule in your local newspaper in the legal notices section. If that's good enough for notifying the general public of offical information, then it's good enough for the amateur community. How about publishing it on a web site? Another great idea! In either instance, you have made the information available.

Just because someone does't know where to look is not your problem. You put your key schedule out there, it's up to the public to find and utilize that information. You did not obscure or prevent anyone from listening to your transmission.

Another thing that really made me laugh was the idea that one could put DES through your local repeater...You betcha!

Unless the repeater is a Micor, MSF, Quantar or MasterII, MastrII 1/2 or a MastrIII specifically set up for secure operation, reliable passage of the eye pattern is not going to happen. Yes, I have tried it on even the flattest of audio repeaters and while you may be able to get something through, the bit error rate will render the communication almost useless. That's why the secure repeaters have the boards for bufferring and reclocking the data as it is repeated. A normal repeater cannot do that.

So let's clean out the misinformation and stop reading things into the rules that are not there and let's have some fun with our new toys.

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Post by 007 »

I'm all about encryption....I've got it, they don't. They want to know what I'm saying, they can buy a radio with either DVP or DES-XL and I'll tell them my key. It's up to them to keyload it....that's not my problem.

Anyway, so far as weather related things go - if I'm chasing, then I'm not doing this for the NWS, I'm doing it for myself. The NWS cannot and will not sanction chasing. Spotting yes, chasing no. Having an amateur radio license means I can come up on other area's nets and listen and/or participate, but I don't need a license to do what I'm doing.

Odds are, if I have the day off and it's a wrath of God weather day somewhere around here (other than right at home) I'll go to it.

So far as equipment of vehicles, I'm glad I've got the gear I do and I'm glad it's commercial /\/\ and M/A-Com. It works better, sounds better and I'll never worry about like I would with ricer gear. My VHF AS3 is programmed with everything I'll ever need around here: Ham repeaters, ham simplex, public safety, government, marine, NOAA and more. I've just gotten an Orion, and that promises to eclipse the interoperability of the AS3 by volumes.

If I run across something that the commercial gear can't handle, out comes the VX-150 or the VX-7. Unlike some, I'm not too proud to use these. I also just got a V8000...this looks to be a great investment since it has "ham" programmability but "commercial" ruggedness and power (75w).

The only reason hams have ever been used by government was our level of interoperability with other hams. Yes, some hams have access to non-ham channels, or are asked to use non-ham channels. Case in point, the Y2k fiasco. In various county EOC's, some hams that had commercial radio knowledge and had exposure to public safety radio systems (were dispatchers, etc.) were assigned to man consoles for agencies soley because they knew more than the people who worked there. This may not say much about the agencies, but...

We are interoperable with each other, but unfortunately ego's and attitudes get in the way of this. Seth makes a valid point about ARES groups being cliques...all of them around here also, and there is no end in sight to the in-fighting and petty-ness. There are some agencies that use a small group of hams not associated with ARES becuase they can get the job done before the local ARES group finishes arguing about who gets to do what.
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Post by ASTROMODAT »

The FBI invented 10 mm, and then they very quickly dumped it, as it was too wimpy. Like LAPD SWAT, and literally ALL of the Special Services Forces in the US military know, .45 cal rocks! Glock 21 with 13 round mags---YES!

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Post by Cam »

ASTROMODAT wrote:The FBI invented 10 mm, and then they very quickly dumped it, as it was too wimpy. Like LAPD SWAT, and literally ALL of the Special Services Forces in the US military know, .45 cal rocks! Glock 21 with 13 round mags---YES!

Larry
WRONG

The FBI dumped the 10 because it was TOO POWERFUL or at least the recoil was to powerful. They tried low power loadings, but then what's the point. They then when to the Sig and then on to the Glock 23.

I would say that if I could only have one handgun, it would be a ten. The problem right now is that there are no platforms out there that I really like. I had a G20, but I never really liked it and ended up selling it. I shot a 29, but that was worse then the 20. I have a old 1072 that OK, but the fit and finish on it sucks (My only SW auto, it has a side mounted decocker and no mag "safety").

I would love to get a Sig or HK that was a ten, but damn then, they don't make one (There are a few MP5-10s out there though).
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Post by firemed9 »

I will carry my Sig P229 in 40 S&W anyday. ( I am right now) I does the job, and it doesn't through my weak hand around like my Kimber Custom .45 does. My glock 17 is collecting dust in the vault with my other 9mm's and .357 Sig's. My backup is my .38 revolver in the ankle.

Sig does offer a 10 mm. I cant remember the model number right now, but its a special order type of deal. I want to say it is a P228, chambered in 10mm, but I am not sure. I saw it when I was in Exeter several years ago.

As for Hams and PS work, I will work with ANY trained Ham in our comms truck anyday. I will also utilize any willing Ham as I can on my incident scenes. If they can direct traffic, or assist in comms for forward teams, then let them. Most hams I know have enough common sense that they arent going to get into anything they arent trained to, and my guys know how to work well with others. During the ice storm we had here several years ago, I had a ham with his own vehicle socked with more radios than I could ever imagine owning, stationed at my headquarters assiting with cooridation with other working groups because some of the groups that came in we didnt have comms for. It was a great help. It also helped he was a trained dispatcher that worked for the town next door for 15 years.

One last thing, my cousin is a SEAL. His sidearm along with all his crew is a Sig P229 in 40. They won't carry anything less. The last time I talked to him, that was the sidearm of choice for alot of special forces groups.

And, Gerbil, your saber might be bigger, back my MT1000 has been dropped off 100 Tower Platfoom while working on the roof of a 3 story appartment building. It was recovered, recased, and given a new battery and battery plate. The radio still worked flawlessly, as it does today. Imagine if you smashed someone with that. Sabers are good, but I have done worse to them.
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Post by sglass »

ASTROMODAT wrote:The FBI invented 10 mm, and then they very quickly dumped it, as it was too wimpy. Like LAPD SWAT, and literally ALL of the Special Services Forces in the US military know, .45 cal rocks! Glock 21 with 13 round mags---YES!

Larry
yeah, you are wrong here Larry


It was my understandign that it was an over penetration issue with the fbi.



45 is great, and I used to carry a officers size 1911 concealed for many years-however if there had been a reliable 10mm in that size, I would used oen of them.


I see switchign from 10mm to 40cal/9mm the same as I see the military from ging from 308 to 223 and 45 to 9mm

do you know why they switched? I know-so they they could let fags and women in the military.


real men shoot 308


plus 10mm will penetrate 2a body armor, even out of a compenstated glock.

however, my next choice after a 10mm would be a 45.

I'm still waiting for glock to come out with glock 36 size gun in 10mm, that would be an excellent backup.
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Post by alex »

Can we keep on topic here?

Thanks.

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Post by ASTROMODAT »

Cam22 said: "I would love to get a Sig or HK that was a ten, but damn then, they don't make one ."

Guess why they don't make a 10 mm gun? It's because the free marketplace has spoken: No one wants to use 10 mm. 10 mm sucks, and is too anemic. The marketplace is a wonderful thing---it sorts out the poor performers, and it qucikly gets rid of them. The marketplace says that .40 and .45 cal are the products of choice, and not 10 mm. 10 mm was an interesting experiment, and a piece of history that failed.

Look what happened to the #2 and #3 Two-Way radio manufacturers, GE and RCA: Gone! (Oh yeah, I guess GE is a shadow of its former self in terms of Tyco/M/A Comm.)

I suppose Alex is correct that this gun stuff is off-topic, but I think there are lots of Batlabbers who like Big Guns. I guess this bar fight should be moved to The Lounge!

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Post by sglass »

yes back to being on topic (Larry, I'd be happy to debate this at length in the lounge. I don't agree with you, but I guess we all grow up-hellI carried a 1911 for years)


I see running des on ham as a very thin line


as long as I post the key I am using, it should be just fine

imagine a website-todays key is "key code"

Lets face it listen to somehtign as simple as des is cheaper than a 2m ssb receiver



ssb is fine but-a good ssb rig runs several hundred dollars


a radiot o receive a des signal is cheap

saber 1 w/des module 125-150
3020 kvl 50
charger 10
keyloadercable 50-75

for 300ish you can get into a good basic setup
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Post by nmfire10 »

Does anyone else see something backwards but typical about the cable costing more than teh KVL??? :roll: :wink:
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Post by sglass »

the kvl i kention is the cheap one

a good kvl (that will do astros) is 200+
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Re: Securenet on Amateur radio - IT IS LEGAL!! If....

Post by oh2lak »

Nice to wake up a thread after almost five years :)

Just my two € cents;

We can use Securenet on ham bands here in Finland. We have a permission from the "local FCC" FICORA to use the test keys documented (at least) in the KVL service manuals. Moto service monitors can listen to them too.

Test key #1 7070 7070 7070 7070
Test key #2 8F8F 8F8F 8F8F 8F8F
Test key #3 AD6D 6D6D 6D6D 6D6E

Station identification has to be done on clear but then we can go and test out the "digital" mode.

We've moved on to P25 which is eventually much better and nicer than securenet. Encryption on P25 is forbidden as it is not mandatory to enable the mode. Securenet won't work without a key, it is treated here more as a 'digital mode' than encryption.

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Re: Securenet on Amateur radio - IT IS LEGAL!! If....

Post by Jim-des »

Hmmmmmmm, How about Type 1 encryption.... Just kidding.... : )
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Re: Securenet on Amateur radio - IT IS LEGAL!! If....

Post by kc7gr »

(baffled look)

If you want to talk short-range encrypted, VHF MURS channels should do just fine. No need to even get near hamateur freqs.

Am I making myself a target by trying to speak common sense? :lol:

Happy communicating.
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Bruce Lane, KC7GR
"Raf tras spintern. Raf tras spoit."
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