Vehicle Repeater

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KuhnElectronics
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Vehicle Repeater

Post by KuhnElectronics »

Well, once again our fire department is trying to address the issue of portable coverage. NO matter how much we gripe, complain, write letters, or ask nicely, our portables still will not arouse the dispatchers.

They are always saying it is our problem, that our radios are crap or the batteries are shot. Well, I may have believed that once, but now with our FEMA grant, we received 10 new HT750's, and they have been working excellent.

Then they try and say that our closest tower has problems rx'ing. There is times when I can see the tower and still cannot hit the dispatcher. So I found out the tower's output UHF link freq, and programmed it in my scanner and listened for a day. I was amazed to hear that tower hearing every bit of traffic there was to hear in the county. Once I giggled when I heard a department about 25 miles from hear say "400 Command Portable to dispatch, the fire is extinguished, we are in overhaul, contact the fire marshall and ask him to respond" and her reply was "400 command, if you are on a portable, could you please switch to a truck radio and try again, you are extremely broken"...yet I am hearing him loud and clear.

Obviously the problem is in the links, or the dispatcher not knowing which tower to switch to.

As far as our problem, it isnt going away anytime soon, and we need to start looking at ways to remedy it ourselves.

I wanted to explore the idea of a vehicle repeater. We really cannot afford a new 2 radio rick setup.

Has anyone used the VXR-1000 repeater. I am not a Vertex fan at all, but when I recently worked on a cruiser it had one, and I played with it and it seemed to work well for them.

One of the guys on our department suggested this:

We never have any trouble hearing dispatch on lets say frequency A, so lets put a receiver in the truck, on lets say frequency B. Then interface the radios together with a COR and audio from the Receiver to the main radio in the truck.

Then in that trucks portable, program a designated channel with the receive as A, and the transmit as B.

My problem with that is we are in VHF and I think we are going to have major interferrence issues between RX & TX... No one believes me and wants me to try anyways...

What do you think about their idea? I need some pro advice before someone will listen....

Is it worth a shot, or go for the Vertex or similiar repeater setup?

I am looking for the most cost efficient way to keep us safe...

Let me know what you think...please...

- Nick
Jim202
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Re: Vehicle Repeater

Post by Jim202 »

You say that listening to the UHF link frequency, you hear everything just fine. Maybe your talking to the wrong people. Have you by any chance had a talk with the radio shop that is servicing the system?

I kind of get the impression that there may be several issues here. The first is why do the new portables work and the older ones don't? By any chance have you bench tested one of the old portables and looked at things like what level the CTCSS tone is at? Is the transmitter on frequency? Is the portable putting out normal power? What is the normal voice deviation from the portable? All these things will effect the UHF link operation.

It is possible that the throughput audio on the link transmitter is not set correctly. It could also be slightly off frequency.

Is the link receiver at the dispatch center working correctly. Is it on frequency? Are the audio levels set up correctly? Is it feeding a voter system? Is the voter working correctly? Is transmitter site stearing being used on the voter?

As you can see, there is a large number of variable factors that can effect how the radio system works. By any chance have you made a visit to the dispatch center and tried to listen to the problem they say they are having? Don't go in there ranting and yelling, just have a friendly visit to view how the operation functions.

Try asking some soft questions about how they feel the radio system is working and ask for suggestions on what they think needs to be improved. it may take building up a rapor with the director there or who ever is in charge. Make an appointment to see that person and go over the comments the dispatchers may have. Bite your tounge and listen. Remember your on their turf. See if they have an issue that is effecting other departments.

The problem may or may not be just your department. You haven't given many details here to come up with to start pointing the finger. Just don't rock the boat until you know how rough the waters may be. See what kind of support that can be obtained from the dispatch center to work through the problem.

Jim



[quote="KuhnElectronics"]Well, once again our fire department is trying to address the issue of portable coverage. NO matter how much we gripe, complain, write letters, or ask nicely, our portables still will not arouse the dispatchers.

They are always saying it is our problem, that our radios are crap or the batteries are shot. Well, I may have believed that once, but now with our FEMA grant, we received 10 new HT750's, and they have been working excellent.
- Nick[/quote]
KuhnElectronics
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Post by KuhnElectronics »

Jim,


Sorry I didnt explain myself very well. The old portables didnt work, and neither do the new ones "when you talk to dispatch". I was just trying to prove my point that the portables were not the culprit.

To answer another question, yes I did talk to the guys at their radio shop. They pull out a scanner, tune in the UHF link as I do, and say, "well sounds like it works to me". I have many friends who are dispatchers, and they too notice the problem. They file notices, we file notices, yet the director says "we will check it out, we need more exact time and dates when the errors have occured"...

so when I have been on calls, and have noticed they dont work i always say "dispatch, please make an entry on your CAD screen that 5 watt radios do not work on state route 7, also please foward that to the director"

I thought that would make a difference.....well it didnt...months later we are still in the same boat. Go talk to the county commision, they call the director, and he says "I will have radio service check it out" and they once again pull out the scanner and say "yeah it works"...its a big circle where nobody gains...

They are not using a voter. They just monitor 8 sites, with select and unselect audio...im figuring that most of the time they keep their unselect down, so if you do mark them from a portable far away from the tower they are monitoring, they will not here you..

Hope that better explains...
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Re: Vehicle Repeater - WRONG FIX

Post by Karl NVW »

I am betting that your analysis of the way dispatch operates is quite accurate, which makes them 100% functionally wrong.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy ONE voting system at the dispatch center instead of putting VRs in each piece of apparatus? God forbid that fire command would fix the problem the right way instead of applying 6 layers of band-aids on a wound starved for air. After all, if they were that good in radio, they would be making good money as radio system designers, not fire command.
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KuhnElectronics
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Post by KuhnElectronics »

Yeah, we put up with so much crap. It is rediculous. But like I said no matter how much we complain, try to explain, be civil, whatever...NOTHING EVER CHANGES!!!!!!!!!!!


So if they dont fix it, I want to be the safe one on an engine and have the capability to communicate with dispatch when ever possible.

So what does every one think I should do?
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Post by CATAWBA911 »

I dont know how your county's dispatch center is set but I think you have the wrong idea of how voting works. As far as them monitoring the rx sites, the voting system takes the best audio from the system and puts it to the console for the dispatcher to hear. That is the whole purpose of a voting system to take away the need for a dispatcher to have to make that choise. So before you start making the comment that everybody that does not work in a comm center always makes about the dispatchers have the volume turned down maybe you need to take a trip and sit in and listen, cause everyone that does not work in a comm center can always do a better job or at least they think they can. Just to answer the question that will be asked, Yes I do work in a comm center but I do know how it is to be in the field. I also am a Deputy Sheriff, a member of a volunteer fire department, a member of another fire/rescue department and my wife is a medic. So I do know alittle about both side of the radio.
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Post by K8COP »

Well , I would be checking to see who is paying the dispaching bill. If your agency is being billed every month for dispatching services like what occures in my County, I would looking at getting together with the other departments and refuse to pay until the problem is corrected.

I also feel tha a voteing system would be the way to go. You already have the RF links in place. With all the Homeland Security Money, I would think that his would be at the top of the list.

It all boils down to firefighter safety and serving the public.

If all else fails.....Contact your local media and have them do a story on the problem. It might light a fire under your dispatch director.

Jim, K8COP
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Post by wa2zdy »

You say yoiu've listened to the link output of the remote site. That confirms that you are being received just fine by the remote site and it seems to me you can't do much more than that. There is some defect between the signal at the remote link receiver at the base and the dispathchers' ears.

If your signal into the remote receiver is fine, as evidenced by listening to the link, I don't know why any other radio would do any better into dispatch. Something is amiss and it isn't in your transmitters.

As for a vehicular repeater, you'd need to get a license for them as you'd need another discreet frequency for the handheld to VR link.

Good luck. I think someone higher up in the food chain over at the communications dept needs to be made aware of this problem and be sure to make that person know you have heard the link and thus know your radios are getting out.
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Post by Jim202 »

I tried to put a post in this morning and my computer froze up about the time I told it to send. We will try again.

From the information here the implication is that the UHF link system is sending the tower signals to the dispatch center. I don't like to use a scanner for checking a radio system as it is like using a mack truck to bring you a cup of coffee.

As stated earlier, the system problems you are telling us seem to be pointing at the dispatch console operation. You and your fire chief along with all the other departments need to burry the hatchet and find a way to sit down and communicate with the director. Until that happens, your just pissing up wind. i like the idea that if your being billed for the service on a per call or monthly bassis, you have the ability to get their attention.

Anyway, I might have caught a hint of what the problem may be. You made a brief refference to the volume controls on the consoles. That may just be the problem. If the operators turn down the non selected volume, they may not hear the other towers coming in.

I once had a brand new console that I had to modify for just this reason. The operatorsd were able to turn the non selected audio down all the way. There was no way you could hear anything coming from those channels.

it took me modifying each channel volume control. had to add a fixed resistor from the volume control to ground. This prevented the operator from turning the volume so low, you couldn't hear it. After the mods, the operators never missed another call.

If you think about it for a while, you keep telling us the trucks can get into the dispatcher, but not the portables. You need to ask them what channel they are talking and listening to when this happens. You may find that they are not using the nearest tower and as such, can't hear the portables.

Another problem that may be there is cross muting of the console channels. If it wasn't set up to mute when they transmitt, the operators may be turning down the volume controls to prevent feedback. I think you indicated that everything operates on the same channel, just from different towers.

You need to find a way to peacefully go spend some time in the dispatch center. Watch what is going on. Set up a test and see what happens. Get some other members to use the different towers with portables. Kind of don't tell the dispatchers just what your doing as to locations. Keep them in the dark, but go through a planned test with each of the towers.

My gut feeling the problem lies in the way the consoles are being used. It may not be the fault of the dispatchers. it may go back to how the consoles were originally set up. Many of the radio shops don't have a clue what they are doing when it comes to consoles.

One of the major gripes I have with console setups is the gain of the dispatch mic. It normally gets set way too high and you can hear an ant fart across the room. You hear everyone talking in the background and it has a strong echo sound to it. If the radio tech is good, he will back down the mic gain to where you need to be no more than about 6 inches from the mic to be heard.

See if you can get the fire chiefs to set the ball rolling and set up a meeting. That will be the first step. Keep your cool and work through the problem.

Jim
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Post by nmfire10 »

I agree with Jim202. I would be willing to bet that all the link audio is going through to dispatch. I would be willing to bet the problem you are experiencing a pure coincidence. If the volume is down on the tower that is closest to your portable, the further away tower with the volume up that hears you broken up is what the dispatcher hears. In the same situation, the mobile has more power and can reach that further away tower full quieting.

Also, since you have 8 towers listening to this one frequency, think about what happens if all the volumes are up. You have one or two towers receiving the signal really nice. Then you have 6 towers further away that are receiveing garbled crapola. What comes out of the console is mix of good audio and crap audio, which makes everything sound like crap. This is what makes the volumes get turned down.

This is a situation that NEEDS a voter. Tie all those 8 receivers into a voter and let it send the best audio to the console. There is no reason a dispatcher should have to fiddle with 8 different knobs to hear somone. It is impractical and dangerous if someone needs help fast. A JPS-SNV-12 with 8 line cards will probably be about $8,000 or so (don't have numbers in front of me). You could get a refurbished GE Voter for a lot less if budget is an issue and it will work just as well. The voter will also tell the dispatcher which site is being voted so they know which TX button to press.
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Post by Jim202 »

I know this is like putting the cart before the horse. But if the operation just flat refuses to look at installing a voter system, then there is another alternative. It will rely on the users having multiple channel radios. It will also rely on the users to know what tower is serving the area they are in.

I don't recall if you said if the system is using CTCSS in the system right now. If they are your one step closer to solving your problem. If not, then it means a whole bunch of radio system mods.

Here is another possible solutiuon. It means using a different CTCSS tone input to each of the towers. It means installing a CTCSS decoder into each of the tower receivers if they don't already have one. Pick a different tone for each of the towers. Use a common CTCSS tone on the output of rach of the sites. This way it doesn't matter what tower is talking, you will hear it.

What you end up with is 8 channels on all the user radios that each channel has the same RX tone but a different TX tone depending on the tower your trying to hit. This prevents all the towers lighting up at the same time and sending back to dispatch a mix of full quieting signals all the way to signal in the noise. The dispatchers no longer turn the volume controls way down and you have a working system.

It also means that all the radios in one region have to be reprogrammed at the same time the tower is tone squelched. It will take some effort on the users and the radio shop to make this happen in the shortest time possible. Yup some where along the line your going to be out of service for a finite period of time. if you do the user radios first, it won't effect the current operation. It is just when the radio tweek goes to the radio siye that you will loose that site for what ever time it takes him to make the changes.

I guess the choice is up the the users. Your choices are do nothing, modify the console (which probably should be done anyway), add a voter system, or go to a site selection using CTCSS.

Jim
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Just my $0.02

Post by dfc2 »

Try complaining to the elected officials... Officer/Firefighter Saftey is in danger. go as far as the state level. your director may think about things if he gets a call from your state senator or from washington.

Are you telling me that you know about a problem with your civil defense systemand you have not fixed it?


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Vehicle repeater, et al.

Post by kb4mdz »

Wow. Condolences to any family that loses a member because of this.

But first. What is the real (not supposed, but the actual) structure of the system? You say there are other towers in the county; (btw, I found this: http://www.wpascanner.com/oh/lawroh.htm. Does that have any relevance?)

Where are they, what kind of height (or for the reading-challenged among us "heighTH"!!!) for antennas, what kind of equipment, etc. How are the 'towers' presented to the dispatch center? (i.e. what kind of console, how many channels it has, etc.)

Throwing a vehicular repeater at the problem may be just a way to 'fix' the problem, by overpowering it with the solution for a really different problem; ( I like the 'Mack truck to carry a cup of coffee' comment; sounds like some radio sales people I have known and despised...)

And in deference to the dispatch center, don't just call them a bunch of ignorant, lazy so-and-so's, until you've had a chance to watch them in action. Their opinion is their opinion, whether it's based on what they >do< know or what they >think< they know.

It has been my experience thru several other jobs (I was once a Quality Engineer, before getting into the exciting and profitable world of two-way radio, and learned a few things about 'systems' and people's 'mental maps') that thru several generations of personnell turnover, some ideas end up being transmitted completely wrong.

Uupps, gotta go. Big lightning storm in my area; DSL's gonna go out soon. Hate my local telco.

Chuk
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Post by N3IVK »

You stated that your portables sound good on the link audio. I'd go no further then that, forget the VRS's. The problem isnt yours and your dept shouldnt have to fork out money for a infrastructure problem.


ON a technical side, there COULD be a problem with the UHF link receiver at the console/command center end......but....

I think you hit the nail on the head with the unselect volume issues.

As a tech, I'd say you did a good job listening to the link UHF freq. If the radio shop has looked at the UHF link on BOTH ends, and verifiy that things are getting to the console just fine, then yup...it's time to complain BIG time.

Send the command center director a link to this Batlabs forum. Tell him to grow some bananas and FORCE the dispatchers to make sure the unselect audio is never turned down all the way. Sounds to me the root of your problem is operator error at the dispatch center.

Also, here's a thought. ASK the director for recordings from the dispatch center audio recordings. I am sure they have the fire radio channel recorded. When you cannot talk to them, YOU note the time a date and REQUEST the recording from said time and compare. If the recorder can hear you JUST FINE, then you can prove to him that the dispatches should be able to hear you just as well.

With the recording in hand, continue to bug him until soemthing is done, and like mentioned earlier keep going up the ladder. Keep that recording on hand :)

GOOD LUCK !!! and good work on the detective work !! :)

Matt Orr
Madison,WI
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Post by ks4lv »

I may have missed something, if so I apologize. I use 23 satellite receivers on three seperate channels with comparators, I am also implementing cross-band vr's for my fire department. With that qualification (for what its worth):

You have verified that the UHF link from your remote site sounds good, thats a good starting point, But before we get to the dispatch center where does it go. Does it go to the console, or does it go to a comparator or to another base?

I would like to assist you in troubleshooting this, I just need to know what equipment is between the UHF link transmitter and the dispatchers console.

The only thing that this "scanner" troubleshooting answers is that the receiver and the link transmitter is working. it does not account for any equipment between this xmtr and the dispatchers ear.

If console is connected to a base that directly receives this UHF link then that base or its antenna, or possibly a wireline, if used, are faulty (lets confirm the infrastructure is up to par before we draw the conclusion that the volume controls are at fault after all they do hear enough to tell you to move to a mobile). If all the pieces in the puzzle are known or can be determined, this should be easily enough troubleshot.
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Post by KuhnElectronics »

As for recording, they only record one site, and u will be lucky to even get a tape if u request it...


I just got some interesting news...well lately we have had a problem here in the county...

The sherriff started having RX problems like a year ago, so they started sharing RX antenna's at the sites, now all of the sudden when the sheriff TX's, you catch the dispatchers first 3 or 4 words on the radio. I have no clue how this has happened..so one of my friends who is a tech goes out to check our closest tower and finds out that all of our radio equipment has been stolen, including the sherriff radios...911 knew for a week our tower was down and just changed the tone pattern to another close tower...

well come to find out the 911 director who is dumber than a box of rocks took the site down, and has all of the equipment at dispatch...he failed to tell anyone...also my friend discovered that all of the equipment they had hooked up a year earlier had been changed and the 911 director changed a bunch of stuff on the sheriff's radio...

hopefully he will be out soon, and us guys who have some common sense will get to make some decisions on a new system...

i want to setup some kind of county-wide repeater system...

so i will be looking here for ideas...

later

nick
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Post by nmfire10 »

Holy Crap.
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Post by KuhnElectronics »

hopefully if he gets canned, and things go good I can get some pull on the design of a new system.

here is the county in question:

<img src="http://www.seoems.com/text_graphics/lawrencropn.gif">

Ignore the red dots, this map was from our local EMS webpage and just marks their stations.

I am working on finding a new map to display the current towers they operate. Their are 7 of them. It is generally hilly, and some think that 3 nice sized towers could do the job, and others think it will take 5. Right now near the center of the county is our EMS's "Mason Tower", near Aid, where on of the red dots is. It is 500ft on top of one of the biggest hills in the county. It works perfect for them. Actually I have been in downtown Columbus before and heard EMS dispatch a run. We will probably go with a poor mans voter system as someone mentioned earlier. Everyone wants to switch to UHF but I do not think it will help us because all of these local volunteer FD's do not have the money to switch. They do not understand that not only will they have to replace the radios, but also pagers, antennas, ect. Everyone else in the county is VHF and that will totally blow interop's because they wont keep two radios in every truck.

No matter how many towers we narrow to, 3 or 5 I figure we will give the FD's some time to get their radio's reprogrammed. Then I think we should keep our receiver on the "Mason Tower", because it is the tallest and most efficient tower in the county, and keep it at the current PL tone of 77.0. That way if some departments dont have their radio's up to date, they can still talk to at least one tower. Do you think this is a good idea? Or another method?

The reason I ask is because I had some smart @sses from 911 ask me "What about departments far away that are using portables???" My response was "What do they have to lose? They dont work now, and this is a stepping stone to fixing the problem!"

Any ways, any advice on for the road ahead? With such a repeater system, would we still have to utilize links? Dispatch talking to the tower should be just like any other radio, correct? I think alot of our problem is a mixture of dispatcher error, and the UHF links we are using. I just found out yesterday that most of them are not licensed, and were once the community repeater frequencies for a local radio shop who used to service this system. They are out of business now, go figure. I want to do away with links, put up a few good, tall, reliable towers, and get our system up to where it should be.

Pour on the comments and advice. I will need as much help as I can to get the idiots around here to think I know what I am talking about. Its bad enough I am young and they think I shouldnt be into this stuff, so I need some facts to throw in their face.

Thanks,
Nick
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Post by w8cmi »

Nick,

If you have the money, go with a repeater simulcast system and voted receivers. Anything less just lends itself to operator error -- either by a firefighter who isn't technically savvy with radio equipment or a dispatcher who doesn't understand how to manually steer a complex radio system.

I'm very familiar with Lawrence County. I designed the original "Firecom" system (in the pre 9-1-1 days) there in the early 1980s. The county firefighters association quickly got involved and they modified some technical parameters so the system didn't work as designed from the get-go. The political climate in Lawrence County will not allow an "expert" to come in, design the system, then bid the system and install it to meet a performance spec. Every firefighter in the county with a CB radio wants to monkey with the design, and can usually find a political connection in the Commissioner's office to make it happen.

I'm also very familiar with your current 9-1-1 director. He was a fire chief back when the original system went on the air and I worked with him. You have your hands full.

Back to topic, I'd stay on VHF High Band. All your other county emergency services use the 154-159 MHz band so you have interoperability. And with a change to UHF, you'll just need more sites and that's an additional and unnecessary expense.

You need better tower sites. The SEOEMS District tower at Mason is a screamer, and it makes an excellent Main site. STOP USING WATER TANKS! If you're in the flatlands of western or northern Ohio, water tanks are fine. Water tanks also work well if you're just covering a city with one site. In hilly southeastern Ohio, most water tanks don't make it above the tree line and usually show up in negative numbers for average height above terrain on an FCC license. Consider some of the broadcast towers available in your area: The antenna farm at Rotary Park in Huntington WV with several public safety towers, the WCMI/WRVC-FM stick at Sheridan (a 540' tower on a rock cliff), the WBVB/RamPage paging towers at Burlington, and even the WRYV-1 translator tower at South Point are much, much better choices that what you now have.

Be prepared to invest in filtering equipment and perhaps a combiner to use one REALLY GOOD high gain antenna on each tower. Most tower owners will allow public safety to put ONE antenna and radio at a tower site. You'll get the "thumbs down" if you propose several Super Stationmasters or DB 224's plus a bunch of UHF yagis for control links. The wind loading alone (think wintertime ... covered in ice!) on those behemoths make a tower manager wake up screaming in a cold sweat!

In any case, good luck. Lawrence County has spent tens of thousands of dollars in wasted public money trying to fix something that shouldn't be broken in the first place.

-Rick
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Post by batdude »

OUCH


sounds to me like someone knows firsthand what happens when politicians become radio technicians....



good luck!


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KuhnElectronics
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Post by KuhnElectronics »

Well, its great to hear that someone else knows what I am talking about.

The original firecom system did always work, even being simplex 154.205 worked great, but like you say, when a Joe Blow who knew how a CB worked 20 years ago, and has the political pull, things changed.

Like others on the board mentioned, it may be time to get the press involved, since other attempts toward the county have ended up unsuccessful.

-Nick
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