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I made a HIROSE adapter diagram, image inside post

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:18 pm
by mancow
I drew out a diagram from my notes of the HIROSE pin assignments. I just finished rewiring a headset and swapped an STX end for a HIROSE for use with a saber keyload adapter. I drew the diagram in Adobe Illustrator CS and saved it as both an AI and PDF as well if anyone wants it.

The image shows the pin functions as if you were looking into the plug that goes into the adapter (not the receptacle on the adapter itself).


Image

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 8:55 am
by kb0nly
Do you have a source for the male hirose connector, that is, are they still available somewhere? I have a Motorola keyload adapter for the Saber but i can't find a plug to connect to it. I also have a MX speaker mic cable which i have move the wires around in the connector for the KVL end, so now i just need a plug to connect to the adapter for the radio.

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:37 am
by mancow
I think digikey has them still. I bought one a few years ago but I don't recall the part # now.

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:50 am
by kb0nly
I found the info on the connector, Digi-Key # HR511-ND just under $11 now for them.

Another question... That shows connections for audio accessories right? What is the Ext/Int- pin for?

Also, i looked at the info on the batlabs site and it shows the pinout for the Expo keyload cable, which is what i was told needs to be used with the NTN5664D that i have for keyloading. But if that's the case how does that work if the pinout is as shown for audio connections?

Do you have a pinout for the NTN5664D? Or better yet a schematic!

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:54 am
by akardam
Check your e-mail...

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:13 pm
by kb0nly
After some searching i still don't see an explanation...

So...

What is the Ext/Int- pin for? Or does that mean external negative to be used along with the external B+?

Which is pin 1 by the way?

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:12 pm
by Will
I still have a few two wire survelance earphone/mics for HiRose equiped radios.

I remember the Hirose connector first appeared on the Expo series portables, then an option adaptor on Sabers, Jedi, HT600/Mt1000 series radios.

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:29 pm
by mancow
The green didn't show up well, it's the mic connection.

The int/ext - is the toggle between external and internal accessories.

There has to be some way for the device to switch between the two. What they do is tie that line low on the plug and when it's mated to the adapter it will automatically sense the presence of the accessory and disable the radio's inernal speaker and mic. That's how I have mine setup.

As for keyloading, I think that line is pulled low and the presence of voltage one of the audio lines causes it to switch to keyload mode. I don't recall exactly which right now but it should be too hard to figure out.


The dual use capability of the D model adapters causes problems with some accessories. I am using mine with a neweagle brand headset. When the audio gets turned up high enough it will intermittantly switch into keyload mode and I can see it on the screen of the radio. I have to use a modfied D adapter with the keyload capability removed. I have a mod around here somewhere from neweagle but it basically involves shorting two pins on the chip inside and clipping a grey colored wire.



mancow

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:56 pm
by kb0nly
Ok, so the int/ext line gets shorted to ground to select the external audio lines. Like the sense pins on the Genesis series.

Or does it have to be connected to ground through a certain value of resistor or?

I know i read some stuff a little while ago about voltages the radio needs to see to select the external devices.

Just curious what you do to adapt headsets and stuff like that. I'm thinking about adapting a headset to the hirose adapter, i ordered some connectors from DigiKey, now i just need to know how to wire it up and i want to be certain i don't screw something up in the radio by shorting the int/ext line.

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 7:15 pm
by mancow
All I did was short the pin to ground. The audio was then routed out the adaptor.

I simply hooked one side of the speaker up to the spk terminal and the other to ground. The PTT is ground switched through a separate line in my headset so that was easy.
In my headset the mic power comes from that Batt+ terminal. It goes through a 4.7k resistor and on to the mic cartridge positive terminal. The MIC pin is connected to the mic cartridge + side as well through a surface mount cap of unknown value (it was already there).

I found that I got heavy noise on the signal when transmitting with this setup using an astro saber. I managed to completely remove the low grinding noise by placing a 10 uf electrolic cap between the B+ line and ground.

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 8:31 pm
by kb0nly
Here is the info on batlabs...

The OPT SEL pin follows the following table:


All Internal, STD Operation 5VDC
EXT MIC and SPKR, STD ANT 1.24VDC
EXT MIC, SPKR and ANT 2.5VDC
EXT ANT ONLY 3.74VDC

According to the schematic, there is a 20 kohm resistor from REG +5VDC tied to the OPT SEL pin. This means that in order to select one of the above modes, you will need to tie the OPT SEL pin to ground through a zener diode(s)(and with no connection the pin floats to 5V which is STD operation).


That's why i was wondering what exactly i had to use component wise. But you just shorted it to ground without problems?

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 8:41 pm
by mancow
I think you are forgetting that the keyload adapter has parts inside of it. There is a small IC that takes care of things.

I want to say that either shorting or applying voltage to either the mic or speaker line is what shifts it to keyload mode. I tend to think it's a voltage on the speaker output line. That accounts for the rapid flutter in and out of keyload mode during high audio output conditions and the need for the modification I mentioned.

I will try to do some more testing here later on and post the results so we can narrow down the exact functions for keyload mode.

I basically took the flying leads and just did some tests until I got it mapped out. I don't think you can damage anything by expiramenting.

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:59 pm
by Will
I remember the Saber HiRose adaptor has the 1.25 V zener diode in it to use the ground on the select pin in the HiRose connector to switch the radio to external audio acc.

And yes you need the decoupling cap on the A+ pin for the external mic bias to work. Some HiRose acc use the mic bias from the radio's mic Hi pin.

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:27 pm
by apco25
This is an audio accessory hirose pinout correct?

Also that Digi-key part # comes back to a 7 pin hirose when these are actually 6 Pin???

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:36 pm
by mancow
Yea, it's a D model audio/KVL adapter.

I mapped it out while changing a neweagle headset from an MX connector to hirose for use with a saber. BTW, it also works with the Thales (racal) 25 audio adapter which is nice.

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:47 pm
by apco25
OK, what is the correct digikey part # for the KVL hirose plug? HR511-ND doesn't come up.

The six pin plug they sent me isn't even close AND its a screw on, not slip on outer ring!

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:08 am
by kb0nly
I don't know what to say about that, they must have discontinued the connector.

When i ordered one last month it was HR511-ND and cost $11, and it was the slip on style not threaded.

Now that part number won't bring up anything on the digikey website so you got me!

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:53 am
by akardam
Try HR111-ND. That's what my old invoice shows.

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:40 pm
by kb0nly
Yep, typo on my part, it is a 111 not 511.

Protecting audio c IC internal too radio

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:35 pm
by Angellot
mancow wrote:I think you are forgetting that the keyload adapter has parts inside of it. There is a small IC that takes care of things.

I want to say that either shorting or applying voltage to either the mic or speaker line is what shifts it to keyload mode. I tend to think it's a voltage on the speaker output line. That accounts for the rapid flutter in and out of keyload mode during high audio output conditions and the need for the modification I mentioned.

I will try to do some more testing here later on and post the results so we can narrow down the exact functions for keyload mode.

I basically took the flying leads and just did some tests until I got it mapped out. I don't think you can damage anything by expiramenting.


I have read in other post that shorting one of the speaker output line from the universal connector of the saber radio would destroy the audio IC internal to the radio. But from your statement here, I believe you are saying that the radio is protected throught the Hirose adapters' internal circuitry?

Nevermind figured it out!

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:48 am
by Angellot
After looking into this, it looks like pin 2 of the universal connector side of the adapter is grounded through a 150 ohm resistor inside the Hirose Adapter NTN5213C. I have my speaker return line grounded on a PCB which I have also connected to the EXT/INT- pin on the Hirose connector. I was thinking that this was also grounding one of the differential pin on the audio chip in the radio. Turns out that it's not.

Re: I made a HIROSE adapter diagram, image inside post

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:03 pm
by kf4sqb
To revive an old thread:

Does anyone know how much current is available on the "batt+" line out of the hirose? I'm thinking of maybe trying to power a low-power audio amp IC from it.

Re: I made a HIROSE adapter diagram, image inside post

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:33 am
by motorola-p50
I landed here looking for a plug I can use with the Radius P50 to wire it for external audio. It seems HR511-ND isn't available.

I found this p/n and measured the socket on the radio. It looks like a fit so I'll order one and give it a try. HR10A-7P-6P73, available from Mouser.
http://www.hirose.co.jp/cataloge_hp/e11000216.pdf

I'm not clear about what I have to do with the ext/int pin to make the radio use external spkr/mic and the normal antenna connection. Can anyone advise me on that?

Thanks!

Re: I made a HIROSE adapter diagram, image inside post

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:42 pm
by motorola-p50
I ordered the plug I mentioned in the non "A" version and wired it up according to info I got here and in another forum.

Works great!

Re: I made a HIROSE adapter diagram, image inside post

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:10 am
by jckrarup
This really is an old thread, but I hope someone listens.

I would love to make my own headset for my saber R's - I have the KVL adapters and hirose plugs, but I am having a hard time making something that works from the information in this thread. If anyone can provide a schematic on how to make it all fit together, I would greatly appreciate it.

The things i am uncertain about are:

- Does the KVL adapter (the thing that screws onto the radio and provides a hirose connector) contain the proper zener diode to use external mic and speaker but still the internal antenna ?

- Does the speaker go between audio and ground or audio + and audio - via an audio transformer ?

- What is the typical mic in a devgru or PRR headset - do I need a capacitor or put a voltage to the mic ?

BR

Janus

Re: I made a HIROSE adapter diagram, image inside post

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:20 am
by motorola-p50
Hi Janus,

I'm not familiar with the equipment you mentioned. I was only interested in getting audio out so I didn't try any microphones/capacitors.

I wired my external speaker (earplugs) to SPRK and GROUND.

I put two normal diodes in series between INT/EXT and GROUND, cathode to GROUND. A diode tester connected to INT/EXT and GROUND shows a 1.2V drop.

Hope that helps.

Re: I made a HIROSE adapter diagram, image inside post

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:38 pm
by SlimBob
This needs to be archived when Batdude decides to update the website.

Re: I made a HIROSE adapter diagram, image inside post

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:52 pm
by SlimBob
kf4sqb wrote:To revive an old thread:

Does anyone know how much current is available on the "batt+" line out of the hirose? I'm thinking of maybe trying to power a low-power audio amp IC from it.


Probably enough to do that, but not much more. Since it's coming from +5V, you can bet the CPU(s) are powered by it as well. The RX power consumption was listed at 285mA per the service manual, and that includes the audio PA, so you might be lucky to get 50mA out of it.

If one is lucky enough to have the schematic, the parts can be identified and a better figure determined.

If you do decide to take this route, make sure the amplifier is well bypassed on the power side, and make sure the capacitors aren't large enough that the inrush current causes the voltage to dip too low for the microprocessor. You could glitch the processor or randomly rewrite a block of EEPROM.

Re: I made a HIROSE adapter diagram, image inside post

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:02 pm
by SlimBob
jckrarup wrote:This really is an old thread, but I hope someone listens.

I would love to make my own headset for my saber R's - I have the KVL adapters and hirose plugs, but I am having a hard time making something that works from the information in this thread. If anyone can provide a schematic on how to make it all fit together, I would greatly appreciate it.


What part number Hirose plug fits?

The things i am uncertain about are:

- Does the KVL adapter (the thing that screws onto the radio and provides a hirose connector) contain the proper zener diode to use external mic and speaker but still the internal antenna ?


Unknown. I could take one of mine apart. IIRC, I don't think they have anything in them, or if they do, it's just a pair. I'll look when I remember.

- Does the speaker go between audio and ground or audio + and audio - via an audio transformer ?


Audio + and Audio -. The Saber drives the audio differentially; there are three audio PAs, two drive the internal speaker, one drives one side of the internal speaker and an external pin, the other drives the second external pin. When using the external connector, the Saber drives both sides of the internal speaker in phase, so the speaker doesn't move and current doesn't flow between those two amps (through the speaker).

- What is the typical mic in a devgru or PRR headset - do I need a capacitor or put a voltage to the mic ?

BR
Janus


That is anyone's guess. Might be high impedance (10Kohm), expecting an electret or might be low impedance, expecting a dynamic microphone -- some military dynamics are 150-ohms, some are 5-9 ohms. Transformers are best here, but you may need a gain block anyway. Still other microphones are carbon mikes, which must be fed with some bias, just like the electret.

A David Clark Company shows a schematic with 9V feeding the mic "output" through a 470-ohm resistor. The mic is decoupled from the downstream device (radio) by two back-to-back .22uF electrolytic capacitors.

The two caps back to back effectively become .11uF of a non-polarized capacitor, as the two .22uF capacitors are connected with both + connected together in the middle (and the signal fed in and out from opposite sides).

Re: I made a HIROSE adapter diagram, image inside post

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:21 pm
by Anderegg
I know this is a very strange thing to ask, but I need Hirose experts help.

I want to now if it is possible to connect a Motorola handheld via Hirose, or a scanner via tape/headphone out, to an Azden 1201BT wireless transmitter. The wireless "body-pack" transmitter has a 4 pin Hirose mic connector, and would be used to feed audio to a news camera while on scene of incidents. I know the wireless transmitter outputs a tiny amount of power to the mic to drive it.....so I don't want to just start connecting wires to wires not knowing what I am doing!

I would love to be able to set the channel on the radio connected to the transmitter, and have channels 3 and 4 on my broadcast camera receive the audio and record it along with the live action video.....would be really cool! My wireless receiver slots inside my camera, and has 188 selectable channels, so I could just press a button to use a second wireless mic for interviews etc.

If the transmitters Hirose presents problems, then a secondary idea would be to feed the 3 pin XLR line/mic jack on the camera directly. the camera has a built in earphone next to the viewfinder, so I could still hear the radio/scanner live audio after I plug it in. Any ideas or help would be greatly appreciated!

Paul

Re: I made a HIROSE adapter diagram, image inside post

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:09 pm
by SlimBob
Anderegg wrote:I know this is a very strange thing to ask, but I need Hirose experts help.

I want to now if it is possible to connect a Motorola handheld via Hirose, or a scanner via tape/headphone out, to an Azden 1201BT wireless transmitter. The wireless "body-pack" transmitter has a 4 pin Hirose mic connector, and would be used to feed audio to a news camera while on scene of incidents. I know the wireless transmitter outputs a tiny amount of power to the mic to drive it.....so I don't want to just start connecting wires to wires not knowing what I am doing!

I would love to be able to set the channel on the radio connected to the transmitter, and have channels 3 and 4 on my broadcast camera receive the audio and record it along with the live action video.....would be really cool! My wireless receiver slots inside my camera, and has 188 selectable channels, so I could just press a button to use a second wireless mic for interviews etc.

If the transmitters Hirose presents problems, then a secondary idea would be to feed the 3 pin XLR line/mic jack on the camera directly. the camera has a built in earphone next to the viewfinder, so I could still hear the radio/scanner live audio after I plug it in. Any ideas or help would be greatly appreciated!

Paul



The Azden's jack is four pins; the Saber adapter is six. The shell is a HR10, Hirose "Push-Pull" connector. You still need to use a transformer on the audio output of the Saber; there is a DC-Bias on those leads from "ground". The other problem is that the Saber's audio out will change with volume control setting. It would be best to put a cap between the input of the wireless mic pack and the transformer. As long as either lead of the other side of the transformer doesn't approach or become shorted to ground in any way, the transformer doesn't need to be decoupled from the Saber using capacitors. The only currents that would go across the transformer should be audio, anyway.

Then there's the level issue, and you will need something like 30 to 60dB of loss between the radio and the microphone input.

So, to clarify:

The Saber's audio out is balanced, with a DC voltage on both sides that must not be allowed to conduct to ground in any way.

The Microphone input has a bias on it that must not be connected to the audio device ahead of it, unless that device is a microphone.

I think the best way to attenuate the audio coming in would be a 100-ohm pot in series with the transformer winding, and the transformer being an 8-ohm to 1Kohm Radio Shack unit or something else with one 8-ohm winding. This means the load the Saber will see varies from eight ohms to 108 ohms, but that should be little issue for it. The question is if you need more attenuation on the right side....

Isolation is a MUST.

Re: I made a HIROSE adapter diagram, image inside post

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:35 am
by Anderegg
I just found a solution to my problem....albeit a little more expensive!

I bought a Motorola OEM Bluetooth for my MTS/XTS radios. I also ordered a Bluedriver XLR Bluetooth reciever......it's basically an XLR plug with a Bluetooth tube. The Motorola part will transmit to the XLR input of the adapter......problem solved! The XLR device is made to work with production/broadcast audio gear, so levels wont be a problem. :)

Paul

Re: I made a HIROSE adapter diagram, image inside post

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:59 am
by SlimBob
With the adapter installed, the Saber still uses internal audio unless a headset is attached, and then it uses external audio. Of course, when keyloading it emits the 1KHz tone from the internal speaker on "PASS".

Motorola radios typically use electret microphones; I don't know at what stage that changes but probably somewhere after Mitrek or on the arrival of Syntor. Maxtrac, Spectra, Saber, etc. all use electret mics; I believe the Micor or the Mocom used a dynamic mic.

David Clark headsets can be a lot of different things in terms of headphone and microphone impedance. Most General Aviation (GA) headsets use electret microphones; the military headsets have dynamic microphones with a low (5-50 ohm) impedance.

Re: I made a HIROSE adapter diagram, image inside post

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:15 am
by kcbooboo
The Micor mike is a dynamic mike element that also includes a built-in preamp.

Since the vacuum tube radio days, Motorola provided 6-9VDC on the MIC line to provide bias for the original carbon mike elements. They then used that to power preamps in the dynamic and now electret mike elements. The typical mike audio output level could go into the 200-400mVAC range with a loud voice.

Bob M.

Re: I made a HIROSE adapter diagram, image inside post

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:22 pm
by Will
"The Micor mike is a dynamic mike element that also includes a built-in preamp."

Correct, Motorola mobile radios, T-Power, Motrac, Mocom 70, Mocom 3x, and Micor, used much the same dynamic microphone that has a built-in preamp that matches the old carbon mic input circuit. There were three different one piece elements that included the mic, amp circuit, and shielding. Spectra, Syntor, Astro Spectra, and later use the 'amplified' electret mic element circuit board in the mic.. Maxtrac, Gm, style mobiles use much the same circuit used in the Spectra mic. They have the same output audio voltage.

The 'Bias' is thru 560 ohms from 7 - 9 volts DC, and the 560 ohm bias resistor in the radio is the output load for the amplifier.

The portables like the Saber have a bias on the external mic line for an electret element. And the mic has a lower audio voltage output. About 2200 ohms impedance and 20 - 40 milivolts. You do need a DC blocking capacitor for the external mic input.

Re: I made a HIROSE adapter diagram, image inside post

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:28 pm
by SlimBob
Short answer on the output issue: 100 uF capacitors on both audio leads in series with the audio path.

From the Saber +5V bus to the Option sel connector, there is a 20 kohm resistor in between.

Re: I made a HIROSE adapter diagram, image inside post

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:22 pm
by toddk
Digging up an old post here, I was wondering if anyone had a copy of the diagram? I have one pinout for the adapter, I just want to verify that it is correct.

Thanks.

Re: I made a HIROSE adapter diagram, image inside post

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:36 pm
by SlimBob