IS a Combiner the same as a Duplexer???????NEED HELP ASAP!!!
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SOC
- Posts: 233
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- What radios do you own?: GP300,HT1000, GM300, MT1000,
IS a Combiner the same as a Duplexer???????NEED HELP ASAP!!!
I found a combiner on the internet junk website it looks just like a duplexer has 4 N connectors. Please help me out!!!!! I need to know ASAP befor it is gone.
Combiner (or diplexer) simply splits a single signal into 2 or more destinations. Provide NO isolation between the 2 end terminals
Duplexers are tuned circuit that allow certain frequencies to pass though on one terminal and another frequencies to pass though another terminal. ie. 50-200 Mhz on terminal 1 and 300Mhz - 500 Mhz on terminal 2.
You need duplexers if you want to use one dual band antenna on two radios.
That's just a very rough description, any changes are welcomed!
Duplexers are tuned circuit that allow certain frequencies to pass though on one terminal and another frequencies to pass though another terminal. ie. 50-200 Mhz on terminal 1 and 300Mhz - 500 Mhz on terminal 2.
You need duplexers if you want to use one dual band antenna on two radios.
That's just a very rough description, any changes are welcomed!
A combiner lets you have multiple transmitters on one antenna.
This is generally used for tx only and rx is done through a splitter type network.
A duplexer is generally used on a repeater where have TX and RX on the same antenna however you can use a duplexer for 2 transmitters if the tx/rx is the same on each unit.
This is generally used for tx only and rx is done through a splitter type network.
A duplexer is generally used on a repeater where have TX and RX on the same antenna however you can use a duplexer for 2 transmitters if the tx/rx is the same on each unit.
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uh, a combiner is certainly NOT a diplexer.
d
d
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As a matter of terminology (or function):
A combiner allows multiple transmitters to share a single feedline to a single antenna.
A multicoupler allows multiple receivers to share a single feedline to a single antenna.
A duplexer allows a transmitter and a receiver to share a single feedline to a single antenna.
For sites with multiple channels, you can mix the transmitters via a combiner, the receivers via a multicoupler, and the output of those two via a duplexer, to a single feedline and antenna (though it is not usually done this way and it will not work for all combinations).
Electrically, there are a number of different ways of accomplishing these functions, some of which may combine (no pun) functions into a single cavity stack. For example, the "T-Pass" arrangement marketed by Tx-Rx.
A combiner allows multiple transmitters to share a single feedline to a single antenna.
A multicoupler allows multiple receivers to share a single feedline to a single antenna.
A duplexer allows a transmitter and a receiver to share a single feedline to a single antenna.
For sites with multiple channels, you can mix the transmitters via a combiner, the receivers via a multicoupler, and the output of those two via a duplexer, to a single feedline and antenna (though it is not usually done this way and it will not work for all combinations).
Electrically, there are a number of different ways of accomplishing these functions, some of which may combine (no pun) functions into a single cavity stack. For example, the "T-Pass" arrangement marketed by Tx-Rx.
Last edited by RKG on Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Actually the below quote is describing a diplexer, it splits 2 different bands by using combinations o, IE a dual band radio with a single output connector would have an internal diplexer.
The 2 frequency bands in the diplexer are usually and order of magnitude in seperation between each other.
A triplexer is similar but uses a combo of high pass, low pass and band pass filters to out/in a single feed to 3 different ports.
Sorry just nitpicking things today but I wouldn't want to see anyone try to use a ham diplexer on a repeater.
dxon2m: said
Duplexers are tuned circuit that allow certain frequencies to pass though on one terminal and another frequencies to pass though another terminal. ie. 50-200 Mhz on terminal 1 and 300Mhz - 500 Mhz on terminal 2.
You need duplexers if you want to use one dual band antenna on two radios.
The 2 frequency bands in the diplexer are usually and order of magnitude in seperation between each other.
A triplexer is similar but uses a combo of high pass, low pass and band pass filters to out/in a single feed to 3 different ports.
Sorry just nitpicking things today but I wouldn't want to see anyone try to use a ham diplexer on a repeater.
dxon2m: said
Duplexers are tuned circuit that allow certain frequencies to pass though on one terminal and another frequencies to pass though another terminal. ie. 50-200 Mhz on terminal 1 and 300Mhz - 500 Mhz on terminal 2.
You need duplexers if you want to use one dual band antenna on two radios.
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440roadrunner
- Posts: 236
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SOC, let me just say, that if you are this ignorant of this technology, you might want to slow down and not be in such a hurry. There are many, many kinds of combinations concerning tuned cavity equipment. Some are duplexers, some are not, and some are way better than others. In addition, depending on such things as flood/water damage, corrosion, fire and smoke damage, and strikes by lightning, not to mention plain old physical damage--that you may not be able to see--the fact is that you can get the Royale Shaft, buying something like this.
You didn't post us a link to what you are "looking at" no brand and no model number. the fact is, the item may be mistakenly or falsely described. It may be claimed as a duplexer, while in reality the thing may be something else entirely, it may be missing parts or cables.
There are many past examples on internet sales sites, most especially eFray, where some beat up old cavity or two or three is being falsely described as "a duplexer" or "a set of duplexers" when in reality you have a pile of old rusty cavities, and even then, they might be pass, notch, who knows?
The basic definition of a duplexer is a device to allow a transmitter and receiver to use one antenna
I'd suggest you do a little Googleing. Start with Repeater Builder
http://www.repeater-builder.com/rbtip/
You didn't post us a link to what you are "looking at" no brand and no model number. the fact is, the item may be mistakenly or falsely described. It may be claimed as a duplexer, while in reality the thing may be something else entirely, it may be missing parts or cables.
There are many past examples on internet sales sites, most especially eFray, where some beat up old cavity or two or three is being falsely described as "a duplexer" or "a set of duplexers" when in reality you have a pile of old rusty cavities, and even then, they might be pass, notch, who knows?
The basic definition of a duplexer is a device to allow a transmitter and receiver to use one antenna
I'd suggest you do a little Googleing. Start with Repeater Builder
http://www.repeater-builder.com/rbtip/
simplicity !
band pass cavity= narrow pass of a single freq
band reject cavity= notches out a single freq
duplexer= allows tx and receive on same antenna of 2 freqs
(1tx / 1rx) in the same band
diplexer= allows 2 whole bands or ranges to be combined or split
from each other to a single feed line or mult-band antenna.
triplexer (or quadplexer)= same as above, 3 or 4 bands.
BPBR duplexer= band pass/band reject components to create the
best possible performance duplexer
combiner= allows multiple transmitters to utilize one antenna with
no or minimal interaction between them.
multicoupler= allows multiple receivers to be fed from one antenna
and incorporates in its design the pre-amps and
amps to overcome the line and splitting losses that
happen when you split, so that the receivers all are
fed a signal equal to a single ant/single rec setup.
any or all of these devices may be needed to make a radio system
work at a given location based on other radios co-located or
close by to the station affected.
I know this is elementary to a lot of us so don't be offended,
I just thought this format of explaining it might be of good use
to some that are new to multiple radio system sites. Phrawg
band pass cavity= narrow pass of a single freq
band reject cavity= notches out a single freq
duplexer= allows tx and receive on same antenna of 2 freqs
(1tx / 1rx) in the same band
diplexer= allows 2 whole bands or ranges to be combined or split
from each other to a single feed line or mult-band antenna.
triplexer (or quadplexer)= same as above, 3 or 4 bands.
BPBR duplexer= band pass/band reject components to create the
best possible performance duplexer
combiner= allows multiple transmitters to utilize one antenna with
no or minimal interaction between them.
multicoupler= allows multiple receivers to be fed from one antenna
and incorporates in its design the pre-amps and
amps to overcome the line and splitting losses that
happen when you split, so that the receivers all are
fed a signal equal to a single ant/single rec setup.
any or all of these devices may be needed to make a radio system
work at a given location based on other radios co-located or
close by to the station affected.
I know this is elementary to a lot of us so don't be offended,
I just thought this format of explaining it might be of good use
to some that are new to multiple radio system sites. Phrawg
BBbzzzzz... ZAP.. GULP !!! ahhhh GOOD fly !
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SOC
- Posts: 233
- Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2002 4:00 pm
- What radios do you own?: GP300,HT1000, GM300, MT1000,
Thanks
Thanks for the help guys, your right i dont know as much as i would like to think i do.Heres what im looking at, its on ebay, check it out for me.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... :IT&ih=006
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... :IT&ih=006
Well, I was wondering if and when someone would brin up the whole ferrite / cavity / hybrid combiner thing. 
The item pictured in the auction is a ferrite combiner. The advantage to ferrite combiners is that they are relatively compact, and can be used to combine any combination of transmit frequencies, regardless of spacing.
However, they also have very high insertion losses (if that one is actually only 3dB, I'll be impressed), and the ports are strictly directional.
Unfortunately for you, the fact that the unit you are looking at is a directional ferrite would make it entirely unusable as a duplexer.
The item pictured in the auction is a ferrite combiner. The advantage to ferrite combiners is that they are relatively compact, and can be used to combine any combination of transmit frequencies, regardless of spacing.
However, they also have very high insertion losses (if that one is actually only 3dB, I'll be impressed), and the ports are strictly directional.
Unfortunately for you, the fact that the unit you are looking at is a directional ferrite would make it entirely unusable as a duplexer.
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440roadrunner
- Posts: 236
- Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:47 pm
Lordie!! I never thought it might be one of those things.
Tell ya what, SOC, if you post a few specs on what you are trying to do, such as RX/TX freqs, power level, and where the thing is going to be (on a commercial site?) we might be able to post a few "sample links" on what you can look for
For example, for an intermittent duty, UHF repeater NOT on a commercial site, those little mobile duplexers you see are adequate.
NONE of the so called notch duplexers will operate with typical amateur offsets (600khz) in the two meter band, they are all normally around 5 mhz minimun offset. Additionally, they don't provide much filtering when used on a commercial site, with other radios around.
As I said in my earlier post, though, be aware that there's a lot of things that can damage duplexers and not be apparrent. A few years ago, I bought one of those little compact units for the 450 amateur band. Two of the internal teflon insulaters were "punched through" from either too much power, hi swr, or a lightning hit. I was able to contact the manufacturer, and obtain a few extra insulators (dielectric) I considered myself lucky, because if the permanent miniature interconnecting stubs would have been damaged, I don't know how I could have repaired them.
Tell ya what, SOC, if you post a few specs on what you are trying to do, such as RX/TX freqs, power level, and where the thing is going to be (on a commercial site?) we might be able to post a few "sample links" on what you can look for
For example, for an intermittent duty, UHF repeater NOT on a commercial site, those little mobile duplexers you see are adequate.
NONE of the so called notch duplexers will operate with typical amateur offsets (600khz) in the two meter band, they are all normally around 5 mhz minimun offset. Additionally, they don't provide much filtering when used on a commercial site, with other radios around.
As I said in my earlier post, though, be aware that there's a lot of things that can damage duplexers and not be apparrent. A few years ago, I bought one of those little compact units for the 450 amateur band. Two of the internal teflon insulaters were "punched through" from either too much power, hi swr, or a lightning hit. I was able to contact the manufacturer, and obtain a few extra insulators (dielectric) I considered myself lucky, because if the permanent miniature interconnecting stubs would have been damaged, I don't know how I could have repaired them.
Not to mess thing up too bad, but that looks more like a Dual circulator.
One connector for the TX input, one for the output, and the two reject ports.
If this is a dual circulator, then the two reject ports are terminated into dummy loads. The purpose is that any refleced transmitter power is 'circulated' back to a reject port and a dummy load to absorb the refected power so it can not get back into the transmitter.
One connector for the TX input, one for the output, and the two reject ports.
If this is a dual circulator, then the two reject ports are terminated into dummy loads. The purpose is that any refleced transmitter power is 'circulated' back to a reject port and a dummy load to absorb the refected power so it can not get back into the transmitter.
personally it looks like a bit like a piece of junk
Anyway Im guessing that was an asset tag from the city of Tonawanda and not the manufacturer.
a quick look on the internet says the population was just over 16,000 and is tourist based economy.
The only highlight is for every 100 females there were 94.4 males.
Anyway Im guessing that was an asset tag from the city of Tonawanda and not the manufacturer.
a quick look on the internet says the population was just over 16,000 and is tourist based economy.
The only highlight is for every 100 females there were 94.4 males.
And the greatest error that even the manufacturers are making in the amateur radio 'community' is the marketing of 'mobile duplexers'...HUH?
Those marketed by Comet, Diamond, Et Al are DIPLEXERS, and NOT 'duplexers'
Diplexers allow use of separate frequencies, like 147 and 442 to utilize a single antenna.
Duplexers are used to SEPARATE a SINGLE band of frequencies within the SAME band...IE: 146 OR 442, but NOT both at the same time.
Duplexers are also tuned, whereas diplexers are not.
Combiners allow many transmitters to SHARE a common antenna for tranmsission, with each combiner tuned to that transmitter's frequency only.
Multicouplers allow sharing a single antenna for RECEIVE only and are meant to handle a SMALL amount of power only...under a watt is the norm.
Isolators ISOLATE RF energy that was not passed to the antenna, and therefore ISOLATED from being directed back TO the transmitter and causing problems, like harmonics, IMD products and SWR related heating, and maintains a 50 ohm load to the transmitter.
Circulators CIRCULATE RF energy in ONE direction, and that is normally towards the loads to absorb the reflected RF power.
Because RF has both electric and magnetic properties, most quality circulators are ferrite and have magnets over the ferrite cores, with a 'tuned' copper port that only allows the RF to travel in a single direction, and that is towards the load for heat dissipation due to increased SWR fed back from the antenna/feedline to prevent transmitter damage, and to minimize IMD products from being transmitted as well, thus making the signal 'cleaner'.
The ferrite/magnet combination directs the RF that was returned, to the 50 ohm load by design.
Look at a circulator, and how the ports are arranged...
The input port is on the left, then on the right side, is the antenna port, and at the bottom, is the termination(load) port.
The fedback RF is directed towards the load as this is the direction the ferrite/magnet combination will allow the RF to 'flow', keeping the transmitter's signal at 50 ohms, while eliminating spurious emissions and IMD products from being fed into the duplexer and out to the antenna.
Those marketed by Comet, Diamond, Et Al are DIPLEXERS, and NOT 'duplexers'
Diplexers allow use of separate frequencies, like 147 and 442 to utilize a single antenna.
Duplexers are used to SEPARATE a SINGLE band of frequencies within the SAME band...IE: 146 OR 442, but NOT both at the same time.
Duplexers are also tuned, whereas diplexers are not.
Combiners allow many transmitters to SHARE a common antenna for tranmsission, with each combiner tuned to that transmitter's frequency only.
Multicouplers allow sharing a single antenna for RECEIVE only and are meant to handle a SMALL amount of power only...under a watt is the norm.
Isolators ISOLATE RF energy that was not passed to the antenna, and therefore ISOLATED from being directed back TO the transmitter and causing problems, like harmonics, IMD products and SWR related heating, and maintains a 50 ohm load to the transmitter.
Circulators CIRCULATE RF energy in ONE direction, and that is normally towards the loads to absorb the reflected RF power.
Because RF has both electric and magnetic properties, most quality circulators are ferrite and have magnets over the ferrite cores, with a 'tuned' copper port that only allows the RF to travel in a single direction, and that is towards the load for heat dissipation due to increased SWR fed back from the antenna/feedline to prevent transmitter damage, and to minimize IMD products from being transmitted as well, thus making the signal 'cleaner'.
The ferrite/magnet combination directs the RF that was returned, to the 50 ohm load by design.
Look at a circulator, and how the ports are arranged...
The input port is on the left, then on the right side, is the antenna port, and at the bottom, is the termination(load) port.
The fedback RF is directed towards the load as this is the direction the ferrite/magnet combination will allow the RF to 'flow', keeping the transmitter's signal at 50 ohms, while eliminating spurious emissions and IMD products from being fed into the duplexer and out to the antenna.
Hello been read this post and i have a question. I have a repeater on 444.9625tx and 449.9625rx. We would like to link to another UHF repeater on 442.475tx and 447.475rx. Is it posible to use the coax and antenna from the 444.9625 and the link radio together. There is really no where else to put anotehr anteena. The main antenna is on top of a water tower 130 feet up has great coverage.. Thanks
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George
- Posts: 265
- Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:14 am
- What radios do you own?: X9000, HT1550XLS, MTS2000, etc
One last thing...
Tonawanda, NY? That's not a property tag! Since when do property tags have frequency ranges on them?
Think people, think! Where have you seen this before?
What is based in Tonawanda, NY?
Sinclair! The builder of the best and the most annoying duplexers, the hybrid ring!
Here's a link to their website. I checked their catalog and the item at hand is not shown. It looks old to me and unless you specifically know what you are buying and how to apply it, I would pass it up.
http://www.sinclairtechnologies.com/catalog/
George
Think people, think! Where have you seen this before?
What is based in Tonawanda, NY?
Sinclair! The builder of the best and the most annoying duplexers, the hybrid ring!
Here's a link to their website. I checked their catalog and the item at hand is not shown. It looks old to me and unless you specifically know what you are buying and how to apply it, I would pass it up.
http://www.sinclairtechnologies.com/catalog/
George
Its an old style Sinclair hybrid coupler.
The HT-150 is an old style hybrid coupler. It combines two high power TX signals into a sigle output port. There are two transmit input ports, a dumpy load port and an output (antenna) port for a total of four ports. The dummy load dissipates half the TX power (3 dB). More elaborate configurations include stacked hybrid couplers with dummy loads and ferrite isolators for each TX channel.
Decibel's version
Sinclair's version
Sinclair's new style and specifications.
http://www.wiscointl.com/sinclair/HybridC.htm
Nand.
Decibel's version
Sinclair's version
Sinclair's new style and specifications.
http://www.wiscointl.com/sinclair/HybridC.htm
Nand.
ltr
so if you had a 20channel uhf ltr system what type of antenna system would you use for that.