The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

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USGOVTECH
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The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by USGOVTECH »

Hello everyone,

We have been working on this issue for many months and the final word from FCC is defined in Title 47CFR Part 90 Sec 90.203. According to the FCC's legal council they have stated that any radio which can be programmed by the operator or user is not legal. The radio must be manipulated to go into programming mode. The reason why this was brought up is because we had a customer who wanted to purchase some 1550 XLS radios with FPP option as well as a couple XTS5000 with the FPP option. The FPP option that is availiable on the XTS5000 is not legal or approved for the general use. Radios can be field programmed under the provisions provided at the link below. The link I have provided has all of the gooey details.

[url]http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422 ... 90.203.pdf[/url]
tvsjr
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by tvsjr »

I disagree. If that's the case, why did the FCC type-accept the 1550XLS and the XTS5000 Q53? Or the JT1000 for that matter?

90.203g3 - Requires equipment to be programmed for frequencies through use of external devices or specifically programmed modules made availalbe only to service/maintenance personnel.

All three of the aforementioned radios require some type of external device (FPP battery or programming key). You simply aren't supposed to make them available to lowly users... only to service/maintenance personnel. Nothing says that you can't train all of your users to be service/maintenance personnel too.
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by USGOVTECH »

This was addressed by the FCC, and they expressed concern for exactly what you have mentioned. You can disagree but it is what it is. I am not to happy about this information. Not everyone understands the technical workings of radios. In fact there was a recent case where a local firefighter programmed his radio on the incorrect transmit frequency and it was causing problems to public safety radio system. This firefighter has no real world knowledge or business even posessing an FPP radio. In this instance it is a bad thing that this guy was able to program his XTS5000. The type acceptance of FPP radios is set on strict guidelines all of which were easily overcome in this instance. The firefighter in this case had a "Federal Government" FPP flashcode which is not legit. For the people who understand the technical workings then this is not an issue, but nowdays there are to many people who have just enough knowledge to get into trouble.
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by escomm »

USGOVTECH wrote: In fact there was a recent case where a local firefighter programmed his radio on the incorrect transmit frequency and it was causing problems to public safety radio system. This firefighter has no real world knowledge or business even posessing an FPP radio. In this instance it is a bad thing that this guy was able to program his XTS5000.
This is exactly why the FCC does not want end users programming their radios. Woe be to the "manufacturers" of those illegitimate Q52 radios if the FCC comes a knocking with their NAL.

It's also curious to note that using a non-type accepted transmitter on any FCC-licensed non-amateur frequency could jeopardize the grant of that license.
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by USGOVTECH »

Very well said. Some people just dont realize the problems they can get into.
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by Hartley »

Hi Y'all,

Just a note - the USFS Wildland Fire folks (Dept of Interior) have FPP capability REQUIRED for radios supplied for their mission. So a firefighter who is a participant in such a program might legitimately have such a radio (which doesn't mean he has the slightest idea how to use it..:-))

http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/niicd/EngDev/Digital.html#top

73 DE Hartley
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by resqguy911 »

Hartley wrote:Hi Y'all,

Just a note - the USFS Wildland Fire folks (Dept of Interior) have FPP capability REQUIRED for radios supplied for their mission. So a firefighter who is a participant in such a program might legitimately have such a radio (which doesn't mean he has the slightest idea how to use it..:-))

http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/niicd/EngDev/Digital.html#top

73 DE Hartley
Not just any old USFS "red card" firefighter is allowed to reprogram the King (and similar type) radios. That job falls on the certified COMT or COML assigned to the incident, and the radios are password protected.
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by Hartley »

Hi,

Yep - for sure - but when these guys buy their own (and lots of them do), they generally have access to the programming "keys". And those passwords are not exactly TS.. :-)

Hartley
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by Will »

escomm wrote: This is exactly why the FCC does not want end users programming their radios. .
Exactly why the FCC regulates this:
Section 301 of the Communications Act prohibits the ``use or operation of any apparatus for the transmission of energy or communications or signals by radio'' without a license issued by the Federal Communications Commission.

90.427
(b) no person shall program into a transmitter frequencies
for which the licensee using the transmitter is not licensed.

As explained by the FCC: NO person shall program, or cause to be programmed, ANY transmit frequency.

This means anyone, and anyone who enables FPP for someone else to use.
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by mr.syntrx »

resqguy911 wrote:Not just any old USFS "red card" firefighter is allowed to reprogram the King (and similar type) radios. That job falls on the certified COMT or COML assigned to the incident, and the radios are password protected.
Hand programming 50 radios sounds like a crappy way to spend an afternoon 8)
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by boomboy64 »

Wasn't there also something in there about the radio not being able to transmit when in programming mode? If you install the key or short out the jumper, it cannot be able to be used until returned to normal?
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by escomm »

mr.syntrx wrote:
resqguy911 wrote:Not just any old USFS "red card" firefighter is allowed to reprogram the King (and similar type) radios. That job falls on the certified COMT or COML assigned to the incident, and the radios are password protected.
Hand programming 50 radios sounds like a crappy way to spend an afternoon 8)
Unless you're on doubletime anyway
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by Nexrad16 »

Not sure what the rest of the FS or BLM do but any Hotshot, Helitack or SJ crew regularly programs and reprograms their BK radios and anyone within the ring knows this. If someone says it's not happening their in some thick smoke or have CO poisoning. It's not like the feds don't know. In fact we had issued to us by the feds the programing keys so that we could do it on the fly. If there was no prg key or we were in a hurry then we did the "short-out" method. Programing was like eating, we always did it and were expected to. Many western and I can speak for NW fire departments have BK radios and we program pretty frequently. Not as often as FS/BLM Hotshots, Helitack or SJ.

I'd say our radio shop and or commercial vendor make as many mistakes as any one else.

Good discussion I guess.
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by USGOVTECH »

Ok I spoke with Two field Engineers and two Legal Council today from the FCC. According to them it is illegal for any end user to field program a radio, exemptions are Amateur Radio and Technical Staff. Also the clarification of Technical staff. Someone who is technically capable and qualified of repairing and servicing a radio. According to the FCC making everone a "Technician" will not fly in the legal book. The engineers and legal council are from the East and West Coast FO's. I will get a letter in writing stating this and will post it here.
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by tvsjr »

USGOVTECH wrote:Ok I spoke with Two field Engineers and two Legal Council today from the FCC. According to them it is illegal for any end user to field program a radio, exemptions are Amateur Radio and Technical Staff. Also the clarification of Technical staff. Someone who is technically capable and qualified of repairing and servicing a radio. According to the FCC making everone a "Technician" will not fly in the legal book. The engineers and legal council are from the East and West Coast FO's. I will get a letter in writing stating this and will post it here.
OK, so you have to be at least as technically qualified to repair and service a radio as the "techs" at MexiMoto, right? Which means, you need to be able to push air with at least moderate success and operate the "golden screwdriver".

Seriously, pretty much everyone here would fall under that definition of "technician".
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by Hartley »

Hi Guys,

Just to clarify - those FS, etc. wildland fire folks are NOT subject to the FCC's rules, because they are operating on Federal (i.e., NTIA-governed) spectrum. Even if they're a regular city/county fire person normally, when they go to work on those crews, they're Federal. And like Nexrad16 said, those crews do it all the time.

73 DE Hartley
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by USGOVTECH »

"Mexi Moto" That is hillarious... You are correct, Many of the people here would qualify as a "Technician" However end users, Firefighters, Police, Special Agents, ETC specialize in their fields, and boy do they earn their pay do not meet the criteria as a "Technician" I have observed it time and time again, end users who dont even have a clue. I suspect that things will continue as they have for several years until something very bad happens and then there may be change .... or not. Personally I beleive that it is up to each individual to ensure he / she knows what they are doing when it comnes to programming.

The Federal users are subject to FCC rules when operating on frequencies allocated by the FCC, however when operating on NTIA assigned frequencies they may not be. I will research this an report back. It is another thing to look at.
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by libuff »

Will wrote:
Exactly why the FCC regulates this:
Section 301 of the Communications Act prohibits the ``use or operation of any apparatus for the transmission of energy or communications or signals by radio'' without a license issued by the Federal Communications Commission.

90.427
(b) no person shall program into a transmitter frequencies
for which the licensee using the transmitter is not licensed.

As explained by the FCC: NO person shall program, or cause to be programmed, ANY transmit frequency.

This means anyone, and anyone who enables FPP for someone else to use.
Will, i got to be a pain in the butt here... and I appologize in advance... but where does the burden lie upon, when it comes to assuring the radio is properly programmed.

from the chain...
the end user, MAY manipulate their radio to transmit on unauthorized frequencies via FPP. he is clearly liable.
if the administrator programs the radio on the wrong frequency via CPS/RSS, he is also clearly liable.

but by your explination, NO PERSON... where does that lie? upon the end-user, administator, the sales person who got you FPP or the "red battery", the motorola technician who fed the improper flashport?

like, for example... i've had many radios programmed by authorized motorola sales centers, who, when i request programming, they just ask for excel spread sheet with the frequencies. now when i transmit on the unauthorized frequency, is it my fault, or the tech that used his RSS to program it? and if he checks the "edit" box in my HT1550XLS, and i personally obtain the "red" battery, is it my fault or his...

its a giant grey area. hard to say that allowing someone to use FPP or the "red" battery is the liable party, or is it the person who manipulated the data to transmit illegially that is ultimately liable..

let the debate continue..
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by d119 »

tvsjr wrote:
USGOVTECH wrote:Ok I spoke with Two field Engineers and two Legal Council today from the FCC. According to them it is illegal for any end user to field program a radio, exemptions are Amateur Radio and Technical Staff. Also the clarification of Technical staff. Someone who is technically capable and qualified of repairing and servicing a radio. According to the FCC making everone a "Technician" will not fly in the legal book. The engineers and legal council are from the East and West Coast FO's. I will get a letter in writing stating this and will post it here.
OK, so you have to be at least as technically qualified to repair and service a radio as the "techs" at MexiMoto, right? Which means, you need to be able to push air with at least moderate success and operate the "golden screwdriver".

Seriously, pretty much everyone here would fall under that definition of "technician".

*sigh*
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by FireCpt809 »

Hartley wrote:Hi,

Yep - for sure - but when these guys buy their own (and lots of them do), they generally have access to the programming "keys". And those passwords are not exactly TS.. :-)

Hartley

Like its published on the website

http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/niicd/Hotshee ... .html#pass
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by N4DES »

Remember gentlemen, it is not only the Q53 option that allows the radio to be FPP, there is an external device (dongle)
that allows for FPP of the xts2500 and xts5000 series radios. If Motorola restricts the purchase of the "dongle" you can theoretically have all of the radios in a fleet with the Q53 option and the radios will not be accessible by a non-technical end-user for changing and/or adding frequencies and would be in compliance with the FCC rules.

All of the xts2500's and 5000's that I have seen to date with FPP have a type-acceptance sticker on it, but here the question remains is did Motorola, or any other manufacturer, go back to the FCC for re-type acceptance with the FPP feature set? My guess is that they didn't because there were no changes to the radio's RF specifications from an emissions point of view.

Another question that could be posed to the FCC is what qualifies "technical personnel"? The GROL is no longer a requirement for tuning transmitters that reside in the states and I have never seen a real description from the FCC
except for some statements noted under Part 97.
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by Bat2way »

This is really a non-enforceable "non-issue". The world has been programming their own radios in many configurations as they see fit since the old Wilson days. Today's FCC could care less about this.
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by Will »

Bat2way wrote:This is really a non-enforceable "non-issue". The world has been programming their own radios in many configurations as they see fit since the old Wilson days. Today's FCC could care less about this.
Mr. Bat2way, you are very wrong this time. This IS activly enforced by the FCC...
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by HLA »

i've been brought 2 1550's in the last year by the local pd to read and tell them what was in the radio so they know how many counts they can charge the owners with for just having pd & fd frequencies programmed in the radio and they charged them with another separate count for having the programming battery too. I think the simplest solution would be for motorola to stop selling the battery without a background check or request on some kind of federal document signed by a supervisor. the same way they regulate the sale of rss/cps. and it's not only the 1550's and xts's, the simple gp68's (which is fpp only) fall in that cagegory too. the bottom line is this, you can interpit the laws all you want and call them grey areas all you want or claim stupidity because somebody else programmed your radio(even if it was done at a legit shop) but in the meantime they are confenscating your radios and you get to sit in jail. the grey areas everyone talks about just gives the cops more power to interpit it they way they want and they are going to charge you with anything they want. when i hear somebody mention grey area, my definition of that is there is usually an arguement coming from somewhere real soon. and in cases like this that will be in the form of your lawyers arguing with the courts for however long it takes and in the meantime they have your equipment and regardless of the outcome you probablly won't get it back. The one thing i've never heard of tho is a law stopping you from having your laptop and programming cable with you and altering it that way. which I think is easier. so the original post is totally correct.
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by escomm »

HLA, so you're saying the local PD has taken it upon itself to enforce FCC rules?

Adding charges for an FPP battery?

Puh-leeze.
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by Pj »

Although the "pro" and "con" arguements both have merits, in the grand scheme of things, I don't see the FPP radio's being any threatening than someone with a RSS/CPS setup or someone with a modified ham rig.

All are equally dangerous.

However, I think of it this way..

XTS FPP's are generally bought by HAM's, and those that are HAM's and in public safety

RSS/CPS setup owners fall into above, or are commerical users that like something better than an MX350

Modified owners are ones who generally modifiy the ham rigs so they can RX public safey/out of band stuff.

Of course, in all three examples there are always bad apples, but on a whole, I would say that TRS bootleggers far outweigh the FPP freaks.
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by Pj »

escomm wrote:HLA, so you're saying the local PD has taken it upon itself to enforce FCC rules?

Adding charges for an FPP battery?

Puh-leeze.
Depends on the state. In NY, it is a violation (pretty sure, not a mis or fel) to have a radio capable of receiving public safety freq's in a vehicle. Now, the law was recently changed which makes it even more vauge, but thats the jist of it. There is a ham exception clause, but because of some of the vagueness, even that causes confusion in court.

Essentially, it was a poorly written scanner law that was recently made even poorer.
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by d119 »

escomm wrote:HLA, so you're saying the local PD has taken it upon itself to enforce FCC rules?

Adding charges for an FPP battery?

Puh-leeze.
Well put escomm... I find it very hard to believe that the State of Indiana has a law regarding posession of that equipment. I bet the whole thing got thrown out.

So HLA, were you subpoena'd/summoned to testify about said frequencies programmed in the radio, or did the police just "take your word for it" along with a printout of the codeplug which could have come from anywhere (chain of evidence)...

Remind me never to go to Indiana... I'll stay in Illinois.
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by MTS2000des »

I think this is another example of how outdated some of the nomenclature and intent of the FCC rules can be. Keep in mind most of these rules were written when the wide availability of low cost, field programmable/tunable radios didn't exist, and most radio tuning was done on a bench, with diddlesticks and crystal oscillators used to adjust operating frequency. The rules don't specify qualifications for an "authorized" user. And this can be a problem. I know of some people in charge of public safety trunking systems who don't know their butts from a hole in the ground yet they are solely responsible for the programming and maintenance of several hundred radios. They lack a GROL, or any formalized training in RF. This isn't a problem until someone gets hurt or killed due to an error and that's what it's all about: liability.

Radios and communications maintenance are fast becoming a part of IT, and many untrained people who have zero business inside a radio are programming everyday.
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by escomm »

Pj wrote:Depends on the state. In NY, it is a violation (pretty sure, not a mis or fel) to have a radio capable of receiving public safety freq's in a vehicle. Now, the law was recently changed which makes it even more vauge, but thats the jist of it. There is a ham exception clause, but because of some of the vagueness, even that causes confusion in court.
You can't be serious. Any radio "capable" of receiving PS freqs means every commercial radio is illegal? So there are no operations that are able to run a dispatch because their radio might could receive a PS transmission? There's got to be more to the story here...
Essentially, it was a poorly written scanner law that was recently made even poorer.
I would think that in a state like NY with all the hot shot lawyers that it would have been clarified by an appeals court at some point
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by mr.syntrx »

escomm wrote:
Pj wrote:Depends on the state. In NY, it is a violation (pretty sure, not a mis or fel) to have a radio capable of receiving public safety freq's in a vehicle. Now, the law was recently changed which makes it even more vauge, but thats the jist of it. There is a ham exception clause, but because of some of the vagueness, even that causes confusion in court.
You can't be serious. Any radio "capable" of receiving PS freqs means every commercial radio is illegal? So there are no operations that are able to run a dispatch because their radio might could receive a PS transmission? There's got to be more to the story here...
I hope so, otherwise I bet CB sales in NY have been picking up.
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by compuman81 »

mr.syntrx wrote:
escomm wrote:
Pj wrote:Depends on the state. In NY, it is a violation (pretty sure, not a mis or fel) to have a radio capable of receiving public safety freq's in a vehicle. Now, the law was recently changed which makes it even more vauge, but thats the jist of it. There is a ham exception clause, but because of some of the vagueness, even that causes confusion in court.
You can't be serious. Any radio "capable" of receiving PS freqs means every commercial radio is illegal? So there are no operations that are able to run a dispatch because their radio might could receive a PS transmission? There's got to be more to the story here...
I hope so, otherwise I bet CB sales in NY have been picking up.


It's too bad we have no say when the cops pull us over and key down on our ham radios into the local machine trying to talk to dispatch. Tell them they're violating Federal law without IDing the transmission and they'll arrest you for possesion of a police radio. It doesn't matter what the truth is, what you say, or the what the law is. If he hears police traffic out of your car or radio, you have a police radio. Unfortunately, those who protect and serve usually don't know anything about radio law, let alone how to even use their own.

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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by Hightower »

If a cop keys your ham radio up, ask him the time. After he tells you the time, and asks why. Thats when you tell him in 10 minutes he's broken a federal law. Most of the time you got to explain the 10 minute identification rule, and you didn't make that law, the Federal Government did!!!
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by N4DES »

A lot has to do with an agencies understanding of the Federal Regulations in addition to the vendor's education to the customer as to the possible ill effects of giving frequency adjustable radios to an end user. IMO this should be an SP for any agency that wants the capability system-wide.

My feeling is most agencies wouldn't want their PS field units to be able to adjust their radios just for their own safety. Imagine the lawsuit that would come about should an officer be issued a radio capable of FPP, be begins to "adjust his radio" and then get hurt or die because he got into a situation and couldn't call dispatch due to his user adjusted radio. Again this is pretty moot because 99% of the agencies out there don't know what FPP is and probably couldn't care less.

PJ was right on target by his comment because I bought some xts2.5K VHF with FPP but they are issued to my technical staff who are licensed hams and to the EOC Comminucations Specialist who is also a ham and of course me. :D
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by HLA »

I wouldn't say they activly go looking for this on a regular basis, but when they come across somebody with one they will enforce it. then they will bring the radio to our shop and they turn on a video camera so the court can see in real time and that ther was no tampering on our part and we look thru the codeplug and compare it to all of the local frequencies. they do this on a regularly, i see a couple radios a month from them because they are just never shure what's programmed in them. i've seen them programmed to the local sherriffs department but labeled something different on the display thinking they could hide it that way. but with the video tape that don't lie that makes it so we don't have to go to court. i know i've posetd on here before about the Indiana laws but all i got in responses was how their lawyers would walk all over it and get it thrown out and the whole grey area thing. but i'll say it again, of all the radios the local pd's have brought me to read, NONE of them have gotten returned to the owners. about a half dozen times i've been called by the local pd's to come to their impound yard because they impounded a vehicle with a mobile radio in it and here's the grey area, the radio was bolted into the vehicle so instead of unbolting and cutting it out of the vehicle on the side of the road, they just impounded it. and after they got out their cameras and we read the radio and told them what was in it, I unbolt the radio and give it to them so they can release the vehicle and when the case goes to court they add in the court costs our fees for reading the radio and removing it and you get to pay that too. and i've also posted this before too, if you have a gun with you in the vehicle with that radio programmed to a pd frequency that you are not supposed to be on, it's now a felony charge, it don't matter if you have a license for the gun or not. I guess here in my neck of the woods they just enforce it more.
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by Wicho »

So what happens when you read the radio for the local PD and it shows their frequencies are programmed in there, but for RX only? Does the individual get his radio back? I would think having a radio programmed for RX only would be the same as having a scanner (but with better sensitivity!).
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escomm
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by escomm »

Wicho wrote:So what happens when you read the radio for the local PD and it shows their frequencies are programmed in there, but for RX only? Does the individual get his radio back? I would think having a radio programmed for RX only would be the same as having a scanner (but with better sensitivity!).
Furthermore, who is to say that those frequencies are not PS frequencies in another jurisdiction? And what if they bought the radio on Ebay? Is it their responsibility to go and buy the CPS from Motorola, go to the FCC website and search each frequency to verify it's not PS? There are so many holes in his story that it's extremely difficult to believe....

I don't know, maybe people from his neck of the woods don't mind being trampled on... I know that here in California the BS he describes would never fly and would quickly lead to six figure lawsuits and disciplinary action. Impounding a car because the radio MIGHT be programmed with PS freqs? Have the police in his area ever heard of probable cause? The radio in and of itself, as stated, doesn't even amount to reasonable suspicion.
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Cam
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by Cam »

Not much of that makes since. If they don't know whats in the radio, how are they coming up with these radio, just running around grabing them off the belts of plumbers,flaggers, Hams ect. and bring them to you to read? I also find it kind of hard to belive that they don't have anyone in court to testify, they just show them the video. How would they cross-examination a video?
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HLA
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by HLA »

ok i'll post indianas laws on it again and if you actually read them it states that YOU CAN NOT have a scanner in your vehicle either programmed to law enforcement frequencies unless you have written permission for every department you have in the radio/scanner. and all they have to do when they have you stopped is turn the channel selector on the radio and listen. if you have an amateur license then recieve only would probablly slide with no questions as long as you were not using it to commit a crime. and for the cross examing a video question, it's never went that far, i would or anyone here would testify is asked, but as soon as the so called high priced lawyers see the tape they go for some kind of plea agreement. And the other question about the local plumbers and people like that, it's outlined below in their own category. look, i'm not telling anyone what to do or how they should be doing it, i'm just stating real world facts on what i've seen and had to do. go for it and take your chances and post on here what's happened to you? you can even look at in other ways, here in indiana we can carry handguns if we have a license for it, but try to take it into illinois and see what they say about it? why don't other states recognize my firearm license when i had to go thru more background checks to get that than my drivers license but they recognize my drivers license. or some states require you to wear a helmet on a motorcycle and if you cross over into their state you better have one even if your state don't require you to. my only suggestion would be for everyone to look up their own states laws and see what they really say, not just what somebody was guessing at. if you ask a cop ask them to look it up for you, don't just take his/her word on it because what if they say they don't care, it don't bother them if you have it, but the next day one of his buddies pulls you over and catches you with one and arrests you for it. then it goes back to the beginning of this conversation that while you are in jail with your radio confenscated, you can explain to the judge how another cop told you it was ok. my guess is the judges answer is going to be that ignorance of the law is no excuse.

State Statute I.C. 35-44-3-12
IC 35-44-3-12
Sec. 12.
(a) A person who knowingly or intentionally:
(1) possesses a police radio;
(2) transmits over a frequency assigned for police emergency purposes; or
(3) possesses or uses a police radio:
(A) while committing a crime;
(B) to further the commission of a crime; or
(C) to avoid detection by a law enforcement agency;
commits unlawful use of a police radio, a Class B misdemeanor.
(b) Subsection (a)(1) and (a)(2) do not apply to:
(1) a governmental entity;
(2) a regularly employed law enforcement officer;
(3) a common carrier of persons for hire whose vehicles are used in emergency service;
(4) a public service or utility company whose vehicles are used in emergency service;
(5) a person who has written permission from the chief executive officer of a law enforcement agency to possess a police radio;
(6) a person who holds an amateur radio license issued by the Federal Communications Commission if the person is not transmitting over a frequency assigned for police emergency purposes;
(7) a person who uses a police radio only in the person's dwelling or place of business;
(8) a person:
(A) who is regularly engaged in newsgathering activities;
(B) who is employed by a newspaper qualified to receive legal advertisements
under IC 5-3-1, a wire service, or a licensed commercial or public radio or television station; and
(C) whose name is furnished by his employer to the chief executive officer of
a law enforcement agency in the county in which the employer's principal office is located;
(9) a person engaged in the business of manufacturing or selling police radios; or
(10) a person who possesses or uses a police radio during the normal course of the person's lawful business.
(c) As used in this section, "police radio" means a radio that is capable of sending or receiving signals transmitted on frequencies assigned by the Federal Communications Commission for police emergency purposes and that:
(1) can be installed, maintained, or operated in a vehicle; or
(2) can be operated while it is being carried by an individual. The term does not include a radio designed for use only in a dwelling.
As added by Acts 1977, P.L.342, SEC.1. Amended by P.L.162-1994, SEC.1.
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The Pager Geek
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by The Pager Geek »

So according to the law:
Get a ham license (Exemption #6)
get a DBA for a company to sell radios (Exemption #9)

I have no idea what the hell #10 is. I have a radio in my car, driving to my legally run business... according to #10, I'm exempt.

And most states have "During the commission of a crime, if a weapon is involved, it goes to a felony" type clause.

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escomm
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by escomm »

So wait a minute, HLA.

You sell two-way radios to commercial customers, right?

Any commercial two-way radio is capable of receiving police transmissions-- So are you breaking the law by aiding and abetting anyone who wants a mobile radio installed?
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Wowbagger
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by Wowbagger »

The Pager Geek wrote: I have no idea what the hell #10 is. I have a radio in my car, driving to my legally run business... according to #10, I'm exempt.
No, because the radio being in your car is not relevant to your job.

What #10 is to deal with would be somebody like one of our (Aeroflex) sales reps going to a shop with a radio for the purposes of demonstrating a service monitor.
This is my opinion, not Aeroflex's.

I WILL NOT give you proprietary information. I make too much money to jeopardize my job.

I AM NOT the Service department: You want official info, manuals, service info, parts, calibration, etc., contact Aeroflex directly, please.
N9LLO
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by N9LLO »

I am calling BS HLA's story. What agencies are you dealing with?
I read the Indianapolis Star every day for the last 20 years. The only radio related stories I remember is the IPD was caught using HAM frequencies for their private chit chat channel twice. They were tracked down by the local HAMS twice and the police chief finally had to threaten to fire any officer found using any non department issued radio on duty.

Chris
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HLA
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by HLA »

yes we do sell them to commercial customers, but no we will not program law enforcement frequencies in them if they are not employed by a law enforcement agency. i think what most are doing is just glancing over what's written and not taking it ALL into concideration. so if the local plumber comes in and buys a radio for his business, we'll program the radio for the frequencies on their license that they are supposed to be on. and they can have that radio however they want as long as it don't have any law enforcement frequencies in it. and the person earlier that wrote about the radio in his car on his way to work every day, no problem with that unless there are law enforcement frequencies in it. and if there are you will probablly need to show proof that you are a cop or your ham license or the letter from the chief of police that you are able to monitor them, or your radio/tv station reporter id, or whatever else you think might convince the cop that stops you. like i said, interpit it any way you want and your state may be different, i don't know and i'm not the one you have to convince, but if i was going in a different state with my radio, i'd find out first. and somebody else posted this earlier, get yourself a ham license and you'r good to go, or at least here in indiana you are. another thing i did hear but never looked up, and i'm stressing, i never checke it out, but i did hear that if you are out on parole you're not supposed to even own a scanner, maybe someone else knows about this?
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by The Pager Geek »

Wowbagger wrote:
The Pager Geek wrote: I have no idea what the hell #10 is. I have a radio in my car, driving to my legally run business... according to #10, I'm exempt.
No, because the radio being in your car is not relevant to your job.

What #10 is to deal with would be somebody like one of our (Aeroflex) sales reps going to a shop with a radio for the purposes of demonstrating a service monitor.
Ok, my job is to try to sell fuses to a local PD. My business plan is to sell these fuses for "police radios." I'm testing the fuse for longevity.... in my car... to simulate a vehicle working environment... yeah, that's the ticket...
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by Tom in D.C. »

Just as a starting point about who can do what, with what,
and where, some of you might want to take a look at this site:

http://www.afn.org/~afn09444/scanlaws/l ... 6-moo.html

With thanks to KB4MHH.

Read it carefully. If you have an amateur license the FCC has
preempted all of the restrictive state scanner/receiver laws.
As you can see, this FCC Report and Order has been in effect
since 2003. Make a copy of it and keep it in your car, and if
the officer who is breaking your chops about your radio won't
abide by the Federal Law have him call his (or her) supervisor.
Tom in D.C.
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libuff
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by libuff »

damn good find! all i have to say is whoah...

so legally, as long as we possess a amateur license, then you fall under this federal FCC ruling, which precludes all state rulings.. that print out has graduated to the glove box!

so what you're telling me, is that i can re-install my scanner? lol.. thanks for the info!
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by twowaytekk »

Sounds like this law is way too vauge by the definition of "Police Radio." I could understand this law if they had TX, or were using to facilitate the commission of a crime. But just to have a two way radio...I can't see that being held up in court.I'm not here to insult anyone, but I'd be very careful upon entering someone's vehicle and removing something, unless you had a court order. I'd be willing to bet you could be held at least civilly liable. I'm not going to guess on search and seazure laws In Indiana but I'd be wondering if a search warrant was obtained since the vehicle was towed. Seriously I'd have no problems reading a radio and providing them with the codeplug printout, which I have done as well. That act alone probalbly requires a search warrant if it was seized. I can tell you though if the defense attorney in any of those cases motioned for all of the evidence to be tossed on the basis of not being able to confront and cross examine witnesses, it'd happen in a heart beat. You can't cross examine a video tape.

There is no real solution to the fact that so many people have the capability to TX of public safety or any other unauthorized frequency, either from using the RSS/CPS, or programing the radio from keypad. With the advent of radio fingerprint technology system administrators can eliminate this problem, but for most it cost prohibitive.

Mark
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escomm
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by escomm »

HLA wrote:yes we do sell them to commercial customers,
OK, so you are a criminal by your own definition...! Those radios are capable of receiving police transmissions... sure maybe they are not programmed to do it, but they are capable of doing it nonetheless.

So who gets to come in and take all your stuff without a warrant and poke through it while being filmed?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: The legality of Field Programmable Radios.

Post by Pj »

Not up on the laws out there, but some of what has been stated seems just not quite right under search/sezuire laws.

Or, its just that the radio shop will do whatever the locals want. Granted the shops are not the one taking the radios, but impounding vehicles because they have radio in them (for whatever external violation) seems a bit much.

I'd guess if this was really going on, someone would have raised a big flag in court by now.

Of course, this is 2nd/3rd/+ hand information/speculation, but at face value, I just can't see this happening, legally or just logiscally feasiable.

Now, if the vehicle/radio was used in a crime, thats another matter. But if the case goes thru the proper channels, and the person found innocent or the case dismissed, the property (unless its stolen) is to be returned to the owner. Obviously contraband will be destroyed, but property such as a radio would (shouldn't) be.

We I would get the case disposition/property orders back from the court, we have had shovels, hammers, sex implements, you name it - ordered back to the bad guy if the case was dismissed or found innocent. Of course, cases involving drugs and the such, we would get disposal orders for.
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