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Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

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Farmboy
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Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby Farmboy » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:21 pm

We have some sm50s, sm120s, gm300s and some maxtracs on our farm machinery. These are all M44 style 40 watt UHF radios. Two frequencies we use are 451.400 and 456.400. Am I going to have to buy all new radios when the year 2013 narrow frequencies arrive? I hate to think all these radios are going to be obsolete. It will be an expensive replacement. I figured I'd ask around so the local radio shop doesn't take me for a ride.
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Bill_G
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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby Bill_G » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:56 pm

Unfortunately yes.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby escomm » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:10 pm

Your GM300 may be capable of 12.5KHz channels

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Bill_G
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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby Bill_G » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:20 pm

And there are used 1225's out there.

Got a tax attorney to talk you through how to write this off? Member of a coop? Grange? There has to be others in your area in the same boat. A group purchase should fetch some kind of discount.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby 35echo » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:23 pm

We do narrowband conversions on SM series and the GM300/M120/M10/M130 daily. The Maxtrac is probably convertable also. The conversions are radio wide not per channel. So the entire radio is narrowband it is not per channel selectable.

Regards,

Allen

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby RadioSouth » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:30 pm

The SM50 SM120 and GM300 were available in 12.5 spacing. Looking at your model # if digits 7 and 8 are 00 you're in business, if 20 or 29 you've got wide spacing.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby PETNRDX » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:02 pm

I thot the SM 50 and SM 120 Were NB capable by channel?
Or am I confusing those with another model?
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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby mikey107sec » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:58 pm

How about the HT1000 radios? Will they need to be replaced too when 2013 hits as well? I've got a gang charger full of them for private security functions. They work great for what we do and would hate to get rid of them.
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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby RadioSouth » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:03 am

Perhaps you're thinking of the M1225 ? Those were per channel selectable. It's been a while since these narrow OR wide were produced, glad I saved the sales books on these. Just to add to my comment above about GM300 7th and 8th digits
showing 09 are also 12.5 spaced. Also the SP50, GP300, P110's were OR also and the model# breaks down the same way.

The HT1000's were variable spacing right from the start, so you're good on those. Believe just a programming change and license modification will keep you going unless you've got a repeater involved.

Where's these old 20 KHz radios gonna go ? I can see only US Govt, GMRS, Ham, MURS (just the 2 154 Mhz channels) as legit users after the changeover.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby escomm » Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:41 am

35echo wrote:We do narrowband conversions on SM series and the GM300/M120/M10/M130 daily. The Maxtrac is probably convertable also. The conversions are radio wide not per channel. So the entire radio is narrowband it is not per channel selectable.

Regards,

Allen

Unless the radio was originally certified under Part 90 for the narrow emissions masks (11K0 etc) then the aftermarket kits apparently don't bring the radios into compliance. So the radios will still need to be replaced by Jan 1 2013. From a post by N9LLO here on the main forum: http://mccmag.com/onlyonline.cfm?OnlyOnlineID=147

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby Jim202 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:52 am

Me thinks the days of the snake oil peddlers are back. Explain to me and the others here on the board how
installing a kit will make the radios narrow band compliant. Unless the kit mfg have had the radios certified
with the kits installed, people are just pouring money down the drain.

I would tread a little soft here trying to sell kits on radios without having documentation that they will
be certified. There should be a sticker with each kit to be attached to each radio as the kits are
installed that the radios are certified and now comply with the new narrow band compliance.

It is real simple. No sticker, no compliance. The stickers will need to state the radio model number.

Jim




35echo wrote:We do narrowband conversions on SM series and the GM300/M120/M10/M130 daily. The Maxtrac is probably convertable also. The conversions are radio wide not per channel. So the entire radio is narrowband it is not per channel selectable.

Regards,

Allen

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby 35echo » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:09 am

The narrowbanding kits we used are produced and sold by motorola for narrowband conversions.

Regards,

Allen

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby xmo » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:39 pm

"The narrowbanding kits we used are produced and sold by motorola for narrowband conversions."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then you wouldn't mind posting the part numbers & application thereof.

e.g.

Spectra = XXX-1234
Maxtrac = ZZZ-5678
etc.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby 35echo » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:01 pm

No spectra or maxtrac. I wasnt thinking when I said maybe maxtrac. Part Numbers are

HLN9575 VHF 12.5K CONVERS/MOBILE 84.53
HLN9576 UHF 12.5K CONVERS/MOBILE 84.53
HLN9578 12.5K CONVERS/PORTBLE 65.89

Look in your old pricebook pages. It will breakdown which kits go to which radios but off the top of my head.
GM300 M10 M120 SP50 GP300 GP350 P110

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby KitN1MCC » Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:52 pm

it is good to know about gm300 and the sm50/120 i have a small fleet of Rail MOW equipment (tie crane,Scare fire)that are gonna need narrow radio i would rather dig up some cheap used radios instead of going new

but i will be ordering some stuff from one of the dealers on here

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby escomm » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:16 pm

35echo wrote:No spectra or maxtrac. I wasnt thinking when I said maybe maxtrac. Part Numbers are

HLN9575 VHF 12.5K CONVERS/MOBILE 84.53
HLN9576 UHF 12.5K CONVERS/MOBILE 84.53
HLN9578 12.5K CONVERS/PORTBLE 65.89

Look in your old pricebook pages. It will breakdown which kits go to which radios but off the top of my head.
GM300 M10 M120 SP50 GP300 GP350 P110

Yes but will the radios be type accepted after the kits have been installed? Did Motorola get type certification for the conversion kits?

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby Farmboy » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:41 pm

Suppose you install the kits and update your license.. then as long as the radios are not causing interferance, do you think they'd come along and fine you? I mean, who really polices radio use unless someone is broadcasting WAY off of what their license allows? Or are you saying you doubt the kits will even work? The other issue is how much is the kit, and how much to get it installed? It may be cost prohibitive.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby GlennD » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:59 pm

The really bad thing is that if you want to purchase wideband equipment to use now with the idea of narrow banding in the future you must buy this year. No wideband equipment may be sold after Jan 1, 2011.

This is putting a major crimp in some of our departments since Long Beach has major money problems. For the past couple of years the only new equipment has been grant funded. Welcome to California!

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby Bill_G » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:19 pm

As you can tell farmboy, there is no clear consensus on what to do with all the 25kc radios that cannot be reprogrammed for narrow operation.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby Jim202 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:10 am

You never said if these kits include a new sticker to be attached to the radio to certify they comply with
the narrow band requirements.

Jim




35echo wrote:No spectra or maxtrac. I wasnt thinking when I said maybe maxtrac. Part Numbers are

HLN9575 VHF 12.5K CONVERS/MOBILE 84.53
HLN9576 UHF 12.5K CONVERS/MOBILE 84.53
HLN9578 12.5K CONVERS/PORTBLE 65.89

Look in your old pricebook pages. It will breakdown which kits go to which radios but off the top of my head.
GM300 M10 M120 SP50 GP300 GP350 P110

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby RadioSouth » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:23 am

I've seen kits for the P110's and there's no sticker. Just a bunch of filters and a install sheet.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby wazzzzzzzzup » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:29 am

when we are taking narrow band operation are we referring to radios that can select 12.5Khz steps?

for example i dont think my MX360 will do 12.5Khz spacing, but i have an HT600 that will. for example 454.4125
is this ability what we are talking about?
think about how to ENCOURAGE Motorola learning safely with GRACE.....NOT condemnation.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby RADIOMAN2002 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:24 am

From what I have researched, most of the narrow-band hype is just that. As long as YOUR radio meets the transmitter tolerance specification for the power out and band you operate on, you can just turn down your deviation to 2.5 kc max and be compliant. Your receiver doesn't have a compliance requirement. But you may experience interference from newly licensed users on your adjacent channels. (UHF band, I recommend using DPL codes instead of PL codes.) I have over 200 Spectra's that I am making and have made compliant by installing a Motorola type accepted RX board that has the optional high tolerance crystal on it. (we also bought for some of the radios, just the crystal) Since it was an option for the radio when they were built, there is no problem for compliance. The radio uses the same CC number for both.
BTW check out what NYPD has said, they have no intention of going narrow-band, and have said so the the FCC. Their comment was " We have sustained 2 terrorist attacks, and are the biggest terrorist target in the world. Whats the FCC going to do, take our radio's away, I doubt it."
My whole take on the narrow-banding issue is that it was to make money. For the vendors and the FCC. There will be little if any benefit to the end user. From my dealings with the co-ordinators, there will be no new channels available or granted in the VHF band as a result of narrow-banding, all the same rules that apply now will apply after 2013. So there is no justification to that expense of new radios and narrow-banding, UHF has had splinter channels for nearly 20 years, again no benefit to the end user. 800 may see a benefit, but I don't have any 800, and so do most of radio users, they all went to big companies, like Nexthell. 900 was always narrow-band, again no benefit. Re-farming is a joke, and the public as usual got screwed.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby RADIOMAN2002 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:46 am

After reading this http://mccmag.com/onlyonline.cfm?OnlyOnlineID=147 I'm not too sure whats going on. This is a change from what has been reported before. Fortunately the Spectra was CC'd as narrow-band compliant for the U.S. Government, and their trunking systems long ago.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby escomm » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:53 am

Bill_G wrote:As you can tell farmboy, there is no clear consensus on what to do with all the 25kc radios that cannot be reprogrammed for narrow operation.

There is in fact clear consensus: the kits must be type certified. The FCC has made this pretty clear themselves and it has been discussed here on the boards. One of 4 things will happen to these noncompliant radios: Into the trash, into the ham bands, into another country, staying in service.

Some folks might want to piss on the FCC and not follow their rules, figuring they'd fly under the radar. Then you might show up on their enforcement list with a $6000 per day notice of apparent liability for using non type accepted equipment. You might not, too. Is it really worth the risk?

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby escomm » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:00 am

RADIOMAN2002 wrote:From what I have researched, most of the narrow-band hype is just that. As long as YOUR radio meets the transmitter tolerance specification for the power out and band you operate on, you can just turn down your deviation to 2.5 kc max and be compliant. Your receiver doesn't have a compliance requirement. But you may experience interference from newly licensed users on your adjacent channels. (UHF band, I recommend using DPL codes instead of PL codes.) I have over 200 Spectra's that I am making and have made compliant by installing a Motorola type accepted RX board that has the optional high tolerance crystal on it. (we also bought for some of the radios, just the crystal) Since it was an option for the radio when they were built, there is no problem for compliance. The radio uses the same CC number for both.

No, your radios will not be type accepted unless the kit is type accepted, the FCC is clear on this.
BTW check out what NYPD has said, they have no intention of going narrow-band, and have said so the the FCC. Their comment was " We have sustained 2 terrorist attacks, and are the biggest terrorist target in the world. Whats the FCC going to do, take our radio's away, I doubt it."

It's an interesting dynamic. Willful violation of FCC rules can lead to a ruling that the licensee is not fit for FCC licensing. I think once Dowd retires the story will change. He is a case study in public safety pie hoarding.
My whole take on the narrow-banding issue is that it was to make money. For the vendors and the FCC. There will be little if any benefit to the end user. From my dealings with the co-ordinators, there will be no new channels available or granted in the VHF band as a result of narrow-banding, all the same rules that apply now will apply after 2013. So there is no justification to that expense of new radios and narrow-banding, UHF has had splinter channels for nearly 20 years, again no benefit to the end user. 800 may see a benefit, but I don't have any 800, and so do most of radio users, they all went to big companies, like Nexthell. 900 was always narrow-band, again no benefit. Re-farming is a joke, and the public as usual got screwed.

That's nice, but your take is so far off base it isn't even funny. Take any large city, Los Angeles is a good example. There is no open exclusive use spectrum. Sure you can try to get a non-exclusive use license but that will severely impact operations. What we are talking about here is effectively doubling the available spectrum for FCC licensees. It's evident that your perspective is that of a small rural user.

And expense of new radios?? Every new radio sold in the US in the last ~9 years is narrowband compliant. Motorola radios go back even further. Why is there so much pissing and moaning about the cost of buying new radios? Folks have had many, many years to budget for this, and still have 2 years left as it stands now. Narrowband compliant mobiles and portables can be easily had on the second hand market for less than $100 apiece and brand new units can be had for less than $300 apiece.

What's the problem here?

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby escomm » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:01 am

wazzzzzzzzup wrote:when we are taking narrow band operation are we referring to radios that can select 12.5Khz steps?

No, we are talking about radios with a defined 12.5KHz channel bandwidth as demonstrated by 2.5KHz deviation from the center frequency.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby Tron » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:34 am

We have cash for clunkers, cash for appliances, how about contacting your elected reps and getting a push for cash for comms? -- economic stimulius..and it wouldn't be billions either.

Tron
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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby Farmboy » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:39 am

I didn't really feel like I was pissing and moaning TOO much, but I am perturbed. I bought 23 radios, the repeater, and 2 handhelds over many years. I'm not a municipality or govt funded agency. This comes directly out of my pocket. I paid for something and kept it in good shape and it works fine. I'm not too happy to fork over $8000, or so, to buy something I already have, because they decided to change the rules after the fact. They don't force you to make a 1992 vehicle comply with 2010 emmisions. This is a crock and a racket. It may seem like no big deal to you, because you will make money from this deal. I'd like to see where I can buy 23 compliant radios for $100 each . I doubt you can, but even if you could, that's still over $2500 that I'd rather have for my company to do something else. I know it's not anybody's fault on here, and we all have to do what is required, but I don't feel like it's unfair for me to vent a little. How would you feel? It's especially disturbing that they don't even change my frequency. I pay for the new license, keep the same frequency, and nothing even changes. Are my current radios interfering all the sudden? I live in the middle of nowhere. If they've known this for so long, why didn't they tell me this when we renewed in 2003? and 2005? Call sign WPLZ233 expires 4/21/13, and call sign WQCR878 expires 5/11/15.
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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby AEC » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:16 am

Narrowbanding is simply smoke and mirrors, and the biggest complaint I have is they are also grandfathering 'old' 25K channels into the 'future', so WHY make a fuss over this, when the REAL story is and always will be, The Same Old Song And Dance (so sad).

Again, the fines they wish to levy on 'non-compliant' systems ARE the driving force behind all of this...EASY MONEY!

I still have to wonder about the FCC being able to levy fines legally, sine that agency has NO law enforcement authority, nor are 'rules' 'law' either.

The FCC makes rules 'based on law' but NOT laws. I think a competent attorney can shoot down the fines based on much of this if attacked in the proper order.
We know the government and all its branches thinks nothing of doing anything to make the people pay and pay and pay.

As for the narrowband 'initiative' that is being force-fed to us, it IS a sham and a SCAM.

Why allow grandfathering of old 25K spacing users, while forcing everybody else to buy new equipment simply because the FCC 'decided' to 'stimulate' one segment of the economy, again, at OUR expense?

Where is the logic in this ruling anyhow?

And a $6,000.00 fine?
There are Constitutional protections AGAINST excessive fine/punishment impositions....Use it against the FCC for once!
I must be an idiot(Id10T) for thinking the Constitution is nothing more than a joke, or as Bush put it: A lousy piece of paper(traitor).

Such a statement should have been used to put that moron in prison for treason!

I better not 'go there' because I get way too worked up about it......Grrr.

Folllow OUR laws, or move out politicians, this is OUR country, and you govern with OUR consent ONLY!

Okay, sorry to ramble.....Soapbox taken down.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby RADIOMAN2002 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:31 am

Well I am not from the farm country, I am from NYC which is even more crowded than LA! I don't know where you get the idea that frequencies will be freed up with narrow-band in VHF, the overlap is still there, and I might add ALL the co-ordinators have said they WILL NOT license any more users on that band than there is now. They are going to use the same rules that apply now in 2013. All users on adjacent channels are considered on channel. So how does that make for more channels? If Public safety needs more VHF spectrum then they should get it, from the US Government pool. Not this nonsense of narrow-band, which does not do anything to fix that problem.
As afar as costs, I don't know where you are from, but there is a MAJOR taxpayer reaction going on now. Maybe you missed what happened in MASS. Basically the public is saying, enough already, stop spending money WE don't have. In addition Government agencies don't buy used radios, at least I hope not ,and especially from E-Bay.
This whole nonsense of going to 12.5 was to help the radio vendors, who were not selling as many radios any more. The radios were more reliable and didn't need repairs or as often replacement. If you research who commented on narrow-banding it was the vendors, mainly Motorola who pushed the FCC to go that way. Another thing is,that the FCC thought? that if they could free up channels they could auction them off, HA,HA not likely. Also their push is to get out of the regulation business and let vendors run their own systems, and own the frequencies and let them deal with interference issues.
As far as NYC, what will happen is they will send about 100 lawyers down to Washington, spend about a million dollars with our elected officials and get narrow-banding stopped for them. That's how they got the entire television channel 16 for themselves. Oh, except for 2, 12.5kc channels for Yonkers and Suffolk Counties.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby KitN1MCC » Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:16 pm

the gm300 and the sm50/120 the radio were 12.5k not slecectable

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby Farmboy » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:20 pm

Forgive me for being out of the "know", but some say the sm50 was 12.5K, some say it depends on the model, some say it won't work. Our 7th and 8th digits in the model numbers are "20". So what's the general consensus? is a sm50 compliant, or ain't it?
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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby Bill_G » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:44 pm

Take yours in and have them read. If the software has a clickable box for 12.5 operation, you're golden.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby RadioSouth » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:39 pm

Farmboy wrote:Forgive me for being out of the "know", but some say the sm50 was 12.5K, some say it depends on the model, some say it won't work. Our 7th and 8th digits in the model numbers are "20". So what's the general consensus? is a sm50 compliant, or ain't it?


NO it ain't. You've got 25 KHz radios. All GM300 SM50 and SM120's came in EITHER 12.5 or 25 spacing as designated by the model# but not both.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby WB6DGN » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:57 pm

You never said if these kits include a new sticker to be attached to the radio to certify they comply with
the narrow band requirements.


Motorola IS big on stickers, always were. Last time around, late 50's and early 60's when bandwidth was reduced from 30/50kc to the present cluster**** that has evolved, Motorola supplied TWO stickers with their "narrow-banding" kits. One was a rectangular white sticker with the letters CC and four numbers which defined the modified type acceptance of the radio. The other REQUIRED sticker was a round white sticker, pasted inside the radio near the IDC control which read "deviation adjusted to +-5kc" That was Motorola's way to demonstrate compliance that time around, however that was not the ONLY way. Both Link and GE authorized modification of some information on the [u]Transmitter ID plate[u]. Link added the letter N at the end of the model number with a letter punch included with the narrow band kit. For example, the VHF 6000-30VR-C1 became a 6000-30VR-C1(N) when narrow banded. GE required a change in the FCC Type number if I remember correctly though I didn't see too many GE's in those days. So, based on the last time around, saying that a "sticker" is required for the compliance kit to be valid may or may not hold true. I might add that the kit for Link, and I think, GE also , required installation of a "splatter filter" in the transmit audio line; not just turning down the modulation level control. Modification of the receivers ranged from fairly simple to "an hour of hell" depending on the manufacturer. It sounds as though today's radios are going to be pretty simple by comparison. One final comment. If I had a fleet of radios that may or may not comply, I don't think I'd be too concerned this early in the game. LEGAL modification kits appeared for a surprisingly large number of the "older" radios that weren't expected to be upgradeable. That may well be the case this time around as well.
Tom DGN

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby Bill_G » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:57 am

WB6DGN wrote: One final comment. If I had a fleet of radios that may or may not comply, I don't think I'd be too concerned this early in the game. LEGAL modification kits appeared for a surprisingly large number of the "older" radios that weren't expected to be upgradeable. That may well be the case this time around as well.
Tom DGN


I agree. I think your crystal ball is right on. Now we'll have to see where the price point lands for the mods compared to new equipment. Some forestry guys were saying yesterday that Daitron was the low bid on the latest purchase. Kinda hard to compete against that kind of pricing.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby WB6DGN » Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:28 pm

Now we'll have to see where the price point lands...


Exactly. Here, remembering from the past is not much help. It's hard to imagine that it would be too terribly costly to replace a couple of dielectric filters and reset modulation; BUT if those filters are the surface mount types, there are still a lot of shops that don't have proper surface mount tools. Also, especially among consumers, brand loyalty is no longer what it used to be, so keeping a "NAME" brand no longer has the appeal it once did. I wonder if any of the Asian (spelled CHINA) suppliers have type acceptance applications in the works for some of their hundred dollar radios. I've read reports on another web site where a lot of hams are quite impressed with some of those radios. For a "mom and pop" business, or even some of the smaller townships, that approach might just be appealing enough to try. Like many others, I'll be watching but, this time, it'll be "from a distance".
Tom DGN

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby tvsjr » Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:53 pm

In the works? The PYT radios are already type-accepted.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby WB6DGN » Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:11 pm

In the works? The PYT radios are already type-accepted.


I guess I should have known. Since retirement, I just don't follow the industry like I used to (except ham).

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby RADIOMAN2002 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:01 am

The only sure fire way to tell if your radio is narrow band compliant is to run the type acceptance number through the FCC data base. http://www.fcc.gov/oet/ea/fccid/ And no the kits don't need type acceptance, just the radios. Refer back to post on FCC weighs in on conversions. http://mccmag.com/onlyonline.cfm?OnlyOnlineID=147

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby escomm » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:37 am

RADIOMAN2002 wrote:The only sure fire way to tell if your radio is narrow band compliant is to run the type acceptance number through the FCC data base. http://www.fcc.gov/oet/ea/fccid/ And no the kits don't need type acceptance, just the radios. Refer back to post on FCC weighs in on conversions. http://mccmag.com/onlyonline.cfm?OnlyOnlineID=147

Question 1: If a licensee uses a narrowbanding modification kit from a third-party manufacturer, do the kits need to be type accepted by the FCC? The referenced article above describes the modification kits: We have a lot of GE MASTR II repeaters and voted receivers, which aren’t narrowband capable. Communications Specialists, a company in California, makes numerous modification kits for various makes and models of base radios. The kit for the MASTR IIs includes new crystal filters and a capacitor, which converts it to narrowband. In bench tests before and after the modification installation, we gained 1 to 1.5 dB of quieting on the SINAD.

Answer: Based on this description, the kits would not need FCC approval because they consist of a set of passive components. However, using these kits to modify the radio entails a hardware modification in the operator’s repair shop, which requires a new equipment certification and a new FCC ID (See 2.1043(a)).
Emphasis added

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby RADIOMAN2002 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:43 am

Again even if you use the narrow banding kits, which by themselves don't need a type acceptance, as the article stated. The modification of the radio in itself does. Unless the wide band radio was originally type accepted for narrow band when manufactured, or the type acceptance was updated. I found a few of those on the FCC website. BTW receivers don't need to be type accepted, they can, but my take on this is your not transmitting so you are not radiating a signal and the FCC is only concerned about that. The receivers should be checked to make sure they don't radiate any signal, but I have never seen one that is working properly do that. I have quite a few MII voters myself. That's one of the projects I am working on. We may just replace all the voters with new complete base stations.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby Bat2way » Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:05 am

If one thinks that as of some future date all users will compliantly throw out their existing equipment and purchase new, they are seriously delusional. Of course the dealers and manufacturers are pushing this, sounds like an easy pile of money. Yeah, and mentioning the FCC fines for non-compliance sounds just like the tactics used by those scam licensing companies. You can expect a "grandfather" clause for legacy equipment to be in place when the time comes.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby snjct2000 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:31 pm

The only sure fire way to tell if your radio is narrow band compliant is to run the type acceptance number through the FCC data base. http://www.fcc.gov/oet/ea/fccid/ And no the kits don't need type acceptance, just the radios. Refer back to post on FCC weighs in on conversions. http://mccmag.com/onlyonline.cfm?OnlyOnlineID=147

I've been using the FCC data base link check but I'm not sure how to tell if my radio is narrow band compliant.
What should I be looking for in the search results?
Thanks in advance.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby RADIOMAN2002 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:38 pm

You are looking for the Emission Designator of 11K0F3E, that's narrow band. If you only see 20K0,16K0,15K0,or 14K0 then the radio is wide band only, and no kit is going to make it compliant.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby com501 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:52 pm

RADIOMAN2002 wrote:BTW check out what NYPD has said, they have no intention of going narrow-band, and have said so the the FCC. Their comment was " We have sustained 2 terrorist attacks, and are the biggest terrorist target in the world. Whats the FCC going to do, take our radio's away, I doubt it."


Yeah, the State of Nevada thought they could use frequencies without a license. They can't even get a license on that BAND anymore because of it. Either pay the fine or go away was the FCC message.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby com501 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:54 pm

KitN1MCC wrote:it is good to know about gm300 and the sm50/120 i have a small fleet of Rail MOW equipment (tie crane,Scare fire)that are gonna need narrow radio i would rather dig up some cheap used radios instead of going new

but i will be ordering some stuff from one of the dealers on here


Railroads are going narrowband AND NXDN digital....

You should budget some new equipment. You have two years. Last time I needed some panel track moved it cost me a fortune from Dobbas, so I am sure you can fit new radios in your budget somewhere.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby com501 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:00 pm

Farmboy wrote:I didn't really feel like I was pissing and moaning TOO much, but I am perturbed. I bought 23 radios, the repeater, and 2 handhelds over many years....... .... They don't force you to make a 1992 vehicle comply with 2010 emmisions.



Dude, your radios are over 10 years old, at least. They program in DOS. Do you still have a DOS computer for your bookkeeping? I doubt it. And as far as CARS are concerned, you should check with folks that live in Kalifornia. They DO have to make older cars compliant.

This is a simple cost of doing business. A business is not a hobby. This can be expensed, and you have 2 years to make it happen.

There are MANY radios out there, and you don't need to buy new. You DO NEED to replace what you have, because they are being obsoleted for MANY reasons, the least of which is the new regulations. Your radios are old, parts are deteriorating and they are becoming difficult at best to maintain. Not many radio shops even have DOS anymore.

This narrowbanding has been around for a long time. I suppose I should be mad because my old desktop consolette had to be converted from 50kHz to 25kHz many years ago.

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Re: Are my radios obsolete when narrow band hits?

Postby RADIOMAN2002 » Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:27 pm

Personally I'll take programming with DOS any day. Bricked too many radios with Windows Exploder. Maybe you feel the same about having to replace you TV too. OH, that's consumer products, can't piss off the consumer.


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