Secure comm's using encryption modules questions

N7QQU-Ken · Post by **N7QQU-Ken** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:24 am

Good Day-

Now that I have a 3011DX and Astro Sabers and Sabers, Systems Sabers and Saber "R"s I need to learn more about encryption comm’s. I have read all the info I could find on the Board, various sites on the internet and doing internet searches.

I have installed DES-XL modules in my radios and now ready to do the programming. I will start off with conventional using all the radios, then try P25 between the Astro Sabers.

My first question is what frequencies are legal in VHF and UHF to operate using encryption?

Are there any tutorials on programming the radios? I just want to save a bunch of time and not “reinvent the wheel”.

Are there any “tricks” I should know about? I have the RSS software for the non-Astros and CPS for the Astros.

Thanks all for the help.

RADIOMAN2002 · Post by **RADIOMAN2002** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:58 pm

The frequency isn't licensed for encryption, the licensed user is, and you need to be a public safety or governmental agency to get that authorization.

KE7JFF · Post by **KE7JFF** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:37 pm

I know on the ham side if you just want to play with it, the practice is that when you are playing with it, you say in the clear "This is N7XXX playing with encryption; the key is A 3 4 G..." then switch to crypto. Just ID like that when you need to of course in the clear.

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:57 pm

RADIOMAN2002 wrote:The frequency isn't licensed for encryption, the licensed user is, and you need to be a public safety or governmental agency to get that authorization.

Really? Can you site some federal regulation that says that?

d119 · Post by **d119** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:58 pm

tvsjr wrote:
RADIOMAN2002 wrote:The frequency isn't licensed for encryption, the licensed user is, and you need to be a public safety or governmental agency to get that authorization.
Really? Can you site some federal regulation that says that?

No kidding! By that logic, the scrambling on the FRS/GMRS HT's and all of the products sold by Transcrypt, etc. should be illegal.

One of life's most under appreciated pleasures is thinking before you speak, or at least knowing what you are talking about.

MattSR · Post by **MattSR** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:48 pm

lol, nice one!

I also realised that the 3 computers in front of me have Linux, OSX and Windows 7 installed, and each one contains an implementation of DES and AES. Do I need to apply to the US government to own a home computer too because it contains encryption that only public safety and government organisations are allowed to have!!

Nice to see the same old tripe being re-hashed time and time again!

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:09 pm

MattSR wrote:lol, nice one!

I also realised that the 3 computers in front of me have Linux, OSX and Windows 7 installed, and each one contains an implementation of DES and AES. Do I need to apply to the US government to own a home computer too because it contains encryption that only public safety and government organisations are allowed to have!!

Nice to see the same old tripe being re-hashed time and time again!

Personally, I've got numerous AES-encrypted VPN tunnels up at this very minute. Off to Gitmo with me!

MattSR · Post by **MattSR** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:30 pm

Dear oh dear! You and me both Terry!!

ka8ypy · Post by **ka8ypy** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:45 pm

I guess I'm joining Matt and Terry do to my having access to a PRIVATE VHF system that has encryption when I am in Ohio. Should be a full cell with the system owner and the other users as well.

Dan
KA8YPY

resqguy911 · Post by **resqguy911** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:49 pm

N7QQU-Ken wrote:
Are there any “tricks” I should know about? I have the RSS software for the non-Astros and CPS for the Astros.

Thanks all for the help.

Sorry the thread went south. Have you read this? http://www.akardam.net/moto/docs/mirror ... yption.pdf
Not too many tricks, per se- just pitfalls.

N7QQU-Ken · Post by **N7QQU-Ken** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:45 am

How would I use encryption on the transient business band frequencies without getting in trouble with the FCC?

I know about the "announce and use" process but is there a different way of using encryption? I have been told by a retired FCC attorney that "announce and use" really does not make it legal to most FCC enforcement folks.

Thanks

Ken

AL7OC · Post by **AL7OC** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:28 am

Read the Part 90 rules for information regarding your question. I think that encryption in Part 90 service is OK provided that you identify your station as required and in the clear. Taxi dispatch frequently uses encrypted coms to prevent competitors from scooping their customers.

I'm not a lawyer, so if you have questions after reading the rules, ask one for help.

The other consideration is whether the encrypted mode is covered by the emission designator on the part 90 station authorization. For example, if the authorization is for FM 20K0F3E or 11K2F3E designator, then you cannot use 20K0F1E CSVD (Securenet) mode under your authorization. After January 2013, you will not be able to use CSVD modes on narrowband channels anyway. If you are already authorized for 8K10F1E P25 emissions, encrypted P25 voice emissions have the same bandwidth.

Ask your frequency coordinator for help too. They should be very familiar with the Part 90 rules and their application.

Most wi-fi routers run AES encryption, so the use of strong encryption is usually not an issue unless it is specifically prohibited in the FCC rules (Part 97). That prohibition is most likely due to international treaties anyway. We can't have Boris and Natasha consulting with Fearless Leader about silly moose and pesky squirrel on 40M phone! I'll bet that any type 3 or 4 encryption available to the public can be monitored through a back door by any domestic or foreign 3 letter agency anyway.

Check with a legal or regulatory expert before you undertake anything you are unsure of in the FCC rules.

-Pierre

n6fnp · Post by **n6fnp** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:34 am

My understanding is that it is okay to use digital (DES, etc) encryption on MURS channels, but have heard that this is
not permitted on FRS or GMRS.

I know that some FRS HT's have simple voice inversion scrambling options that can be used. I would like to know for
sure if digital encryption is prohibited on FRS and GMRS or not.

n6fnp

AL7OC · Post by **AL7OC** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:22 pm

What emission types are allowed on MURS, FRS, and GMRS? Check the Part 95 rules. What type of emission mode are you using with your DES algorithm? Securenet uses 20K0F1E; P25 uses 8K10F1E. If those modes are not permitted under Part 95 rules for the services you mentioned, then the answer to your question is "no". (The 151 MHz MURS channels are authorized for narrow FM; the 154 MHz MURS channels are wide FM.) If you read the fine print in the rules, there used to be section requiring all MURS, GMRS and FRS radios be FCC type accepted for each service. If the radio is not type accepted, then you can't legally use it for that service.

Again, the issue here is not encryption, but emission type, bandwidth, and type acceptance of the equipment for the radio service that you are using. Unlike the amateur service, Part 90 and Part 95 services have specific rules specifying emission and bandwidth types allowed on specific frequencies. The radio has to be type accepted for the radio service that you want to use it in. Sure, you can program or crystal up a radio for any frequency and make it work, but if you cause interference to someone else because your radio emission is too wide or your radio carrier frequency drifts too far off center, be prepared to face the music!

Read the FCC rules and learn about the technical standards for each service. If you want to experiment and play around, that's what the amateur service is for.

-Pierre

N7QQU-Ken · Post by **N7QQU-Ken** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:17 am

Thanks for all the information. I have been busy doing my homework and searching the internet and FCC website. From what I can find is not very specific and in many cases avoides the topic.
From what I have found is that non-governmental services like Amateur Radio Service can not use encrypted transmissions.

I don't want to start a flame war on the subject. I just want to find out how to use encryption without breaking any of the rules.

Thanks , Ken

AL7OC · Post by **AL7OC** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:22 am

To answer your questions, what do the FCC rules say? That's in black and white. What do they mean? If you aren't sure, get a laywer for help. I'm not a lawyer.

So what do the rules say regarding your question? Anyone can look them up...

GMRS Service - pretty black and white here...

GMRS Rules 47CFR95.183 Prohibited communications.
(a) A station operator must not communicate:
(4) Coded messages or messages with hidden meanings (``10 codes'' are permissible);

Are your encryption module equipped radios FCC certified for GMRS use?

GMRS Rules 95.129 Station equipment.
Every station in a GMRS system must use transmitters the FCC has certificated for use in the GMRS. Write to any FCC Field Office to find out if a particular transmitter has been certificated for the GMRS. All station equipment in a GMRS system must comply with the technical rules in part 95.

FRS Rules - are your encryption module equipped radios FCC certified FRS units?

47CFR95.194 (FRS Rule 4) FRS units.
(a) You may only use an FCC certified FRS unit. (You can identify an FCC certified FRS unit by the label placed on it by the manufacturer.)

Amateur Service - again, you don't need to be a Philadelphia Lawyer to look up the rules and read them...

47CFR97.113 Prohibited transmissions.
(a) No amateur station shall transmit:
(4) Music using a phone emission except as specifically provided elsewhere in this section; communications intended to facilitate a criminal act; messages encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning, except as otherwise provided herein; obscene or indecent words or language; or false or deceptive messages, signals or identification.

47CFR97.211 Space telecommand station.
(b) A telecommand station may transmit special codes intended to obscure the meaning of telecommand messages to the station in space operation.

Are you transmitting communications permitted under 47CFR97.211 or can you find another permitted exception in the Part 97 Rules? If not, then the answer appears pretty clear here too...

Land Mobile Radio Service - do you have a Part 90 Land Mobile Radio Service station authorization? If so, check with your frequency coordinator, the Part 90 rules, and maybe your lawyer to see if you are permitted to use encryption and the emissions required to support it under your Part 90 authorization.

Special Considerations:

Part 90 Land Mobile Radio Service Rules are very complex compared with Part 95 or Part 97 Rules. If you need to figure out if you are eligable for a license and need help with the technical specifications, then you need professional help (FCC Accredited Frequency Coordinator, Legal Advice, ect), which is way beyond the scope of this BBS. If you have just got the encryption modules to dink around with, the Part 90 radio service is NOT the place for that.

CSVD modulation used with Securenet modules to support DVP, DVP-XL, DES, DES-XL, DVI, etc has a 20kHz wide footprint. Part 90 users will be required to use narrowband emission after 1 Jan 2013. Unless your Part 90 station authorization will allow 20K0F1E emissions after 1 Jan 2013, I'm not sure what good those older modules will be. The audio quality stinks compared to P25 CAI voice anyway. If you want to use encrypted P25 CAI voice, then your authorization will need to specify the emission that your radio uses for that mode (typically 8K10F1E).

If you need to ask or rephrase your question again, then you need legal help to understand the rules. So far, the answer doesn't appear to be what you want to hear.

-Pierre

AL7OC · Post by **AL7OC** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:04 pm

Almost forgot - MURS. Can you legally use your encryption module equipped radios on MURS? The answer appears to be "no" because your radios are not certified (or eligible for certification) for MURS and the emmission types used for Securenet and P25 CAI voice are not permitted in MURS (Securenet 20K0F1E, P25 CAI Phase 1 8K10F1E).

Part of the problem with legally using Part 90 certified radios in MURS service is that MURS radios have to have a specific emmission mask (filter) to contain their signal bandwidth.

Not to be a party-pooper, but unless you have a Part 90 Land Mobile authoriztion and your authorization permits the emmissions necessary for your encryption modules, it looks like you won't be able to use that hardware in the other services that your radios may program up on. You have to meet very specific eligibility requirements for a Part 90 station authorization, and pay the coordination and license fees.

Good luck.

-Pierre

Here's some of the FCC MURS rules to ponder regarding your encryption module question...

§ 95.603 Certification required.

(g) Each Multi-Use Radio Service
transmitter (a transmitter that operates
or is intended to operate in the
MURS) must be certificated in accordance
with subpart J of part 2 of this
chapter, Provided however, that those
radio units certificated as of November
12, 2002 need not be recertificated.

§ 95.631 Emission types.

(j) A MURS transmitter must transmit
only emission types A1D, A2B,
A2D, A3E, F2B, F1D, F2D, F3E, G3E.
Emission types A3E, F3E and G3E include
selective calling or tone-operated squelch
tones to establish or continue
voice communications. MURS transmitters
are prohibited from transmitting
in the continuous carrier mode.

§ 95.632 MURS transmitter frequencies.

(a) The MURS transmitter channel
frequencies are 151.820 MHz, 151.880
MHz, 151.940 MHz, 154.570 MHz, 154.600
MHz.
(b) The authorized bandwidth is 11.25
kHz on frequencies 151.820 MHz, 151.880
MHz and 151.940 MHz. The authorized
bandwidth is 20.0 kHz on frequencies
154.570 and 154.600 MHz.
(c) MURS transmitters must maintain
a frequency stability of 5.0 ppm, or
2.0 ppm if designed to operate with a
6.25 kHz bandwidth.

§ 95.653 Instructions and warnings.

(d) No transmitter will be certificated
for use in MURS if it is equipped
with a frequency capability not listed
in § 95.632.

PeterGV · Post by **PeterGV** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:21 am

Pierre, AL7OC has given some outstanding advice in this thread... and I don't want to do anything to take-away from that. However, I just wanted to take issue with one of his passing comments:

I'll bet that any type 3 or 4 encryption available to the public can be monitored through a back door by any domestic or foreign 3 letter agency anyway.

I hear this a lot, but the likelihood of any "backdoor" -- even for Type 3 or Type 4 products -- is very, very slim.

Consider the coordination and administration (bureaucracy) that would be required to actually implement and enforce a "back door" requirement. Imagine how hard this would be to keep secret. Are the commercially available Motorola encryption boards (we're not talking "Sierra" modules here) even NSA Certified Type 3? I didn't think they were. And, if not, how would the 3 letter agencies enforce a back door requirement.

DES, 3DES and AES qualify as Type 3. With the exception of DES, these are pretty hard to break using brute force.

With extremely high-strength encryption algorithms available in the public domain (just Google "AES implementation" to see a bunch of examples suitable for a middle school student to use... and clearly without any back doors) the ability for bad actors to keep their communications secret is a pretty scary thing to consider.

Sorry for the digression Ken and Pierre,

Peter
K1PGV

RADIOMAN2002 · Post by **RADIOMAN2002** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:28 am

I guess my post was taken out of context. Again the LICENSEE, not the frequency must be COORDINATED and LICENSED by the FCC to use DES, DVP, DVI or any DIGITAL Emission on a RADIO FREQUENCY not a computer or land line etc, AND if you are NOT a Public Safety Agency or a Governmental one you are NOT going to get a license to transmit any of the digital encryption methods. Try it, I know you will not succeed. The FCC and the Government in general frowns upon anything they cannot monitor. I challenge anyone to provide a copy of a digital emission license that is not issued to a PS or governmental agency or maybe a power company running a nuke power plant. Beside after 1-01-2013 you won't be able to use it anyway. DES doesn't work with narrow band.
All above has no bearing on analog voice inversion SCRAMBLING. Maybe some posters should read that actual post first before commenting.
As far as knowing what I am talking about, with nearly 40 years in PS radio, and having licensed many agencies for DES or other DIGITAL encrypted comms, there is NOT a single BUSINESS user I know of that is licensed for DES. If there is please let me know how you did it, I have lots of friends who would like to know. Provide call sign and FRN.

CTAMontrose · Post by **CTAMontrose** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:53 am

RADIOMAN2002 wrote:I guess my post was taken out of context. Again the LICENSEE, not the frequency must be COORDINATED and LICENSED by the FCC to use DES, DVP, DVI or any DIGITAL Emission on a RADIO FREQUENCY not a computer or land line etc, AND if you are NOT a Public Safety Agency or a Governmental one you are NOT going to get a license to transmit any of the digital encryption methods. Try it, I know you will not succeed. The FCC and the Government in general frowns upon anything they cannot monitor. I challenge anyone to provide a copy of a digital emission license that is not issued to a PS or governmental agency or maybe a power company running a nuke power plant. Beside after 1-01-2013 you won't be able to use it anyway. DES doesn't work with narrow band.
All above has no bearing on analog voice inversion SCRAMBLING. Maybe some posters should read that actual post first before commenting.
As far as knowing what I am talking about, with nearly 40 years in PS radio, and having licensed many agencies for DES or other DIGITAL encrypted comms, there is NOT a single BUSINESS user I know of that is licensed for DES. If there is please let me know how you did it, I have lots of friends who would like to know. Provide call sign and FRN.

If you are a business running P25 conventional (which is completely legal and allowable), running the emmission designator of 8K10F1E, then you can run DES-OFB, ADP, AES and be well within your legal right as there is NOTHING on the 601s that say anything about encryption. So exactly HOW would a user be running illegally using AES than clear P25? The frequency, power output, emission mask as well as every other parameter would be identical from an FCC licensing standpoint. As to if there are any currently using P25 conventional, that i cannot answer. I think the market has made other technologies a viable solution.

But also following logic, how do you explain the MotoTRBO systems that are utilizing the built in encryption? The radios are part 90 certified with the built in encryption and is marketed mainly as a buisness radio system. It could be surmised that if the FCC wanted businesses to run only in the clear, they would have never allowed certification of a product designed for business that includes encryption.

RADIOMAN2002 · Post by **RADIOMAN2002** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:09 am

Again refer back to the original post. This whole post is about DES,DVP etc. I have not commented in anyway about P-25 comms, encrypted or not, or MOTOTRO for that matter. You CANNOT get unless you are an authorized agency a license for DES,DVP emissions on a business frequency or as a business user. Read the post!

As far as those other encrypted formats, you would be better served by asking the FCC or contacting a Washington radio attorney. All it takes is one call from an adjacent or on channel user saying you are using DES-OFB and I wouldn't want to be you when the Feds show up.

I am not the radio police, the OP was looking for answers to his question as to how legally use DES or DVP on a Business channel, and I'm sure he got more than he asked for

CTAMontrose · Post by **CTAMontrose** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:18 am

Not quite, what you said was:

RADIOMAN2002 wrote:NOT going to get a license to transmit any of the digital encryption methods

DES-OFB, ADP, AES, TRBO's encryption certainly qualify as such.

RADIOMAN2002 · Post by **RADIOMAN2002** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:39 pm

Someone just wants to pick a fight, you aren't listening, read the original posters question, there is no mention of DES-OFB, ADP, AES, or TRBO's in my response.Actually I really would like to see where it ALLOWS those digital encryption methods, in part 90.35.

WV8VFD · Post by **WV8VFD** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:32 pm

http://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=1706

Theres one business I know of that, last time I was there, was using DES-XL

RADIOMAN2002 · Post by **RADIOMAN2002** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:41 pm

Nope, those frequencies (http://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=1706) are licensed to a power company (American Electric Power Service Corporation),who as I stated can get a DES/DVP,DVI license. Anheuser-Busch in Columbus only has according to the FCC website some 460 business channels, they may be using (and I really don't know the arrangement) that system. The State of Ohio is on those channels too.

N7QQU-Ken · Post by **N7QQU-Ken** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:45 pm

Lots of interesting information.

I am the original poster and want to get back to my original question. I will restate it .... now that I have the radio (Astro Saber), the secure modules (DES-XL), the keyloader (T3011DX) and the radio to KVL cable (TKN8506A).... what frequency and what radio service can I use encryption?

I am a general class ham and I understand that encryption is not allowed on ham bands. I can get a license in another radio service if necessary.

There are lots of folks that have key loaders. How and where do they use them?

Thanks for the feed back.

N7QQU-Ken

MRFLASHPORT · Post by **MRFLASHPORT** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:54 pm

N7QQU-Ken

Just do what you have to do and have fun. Stop posting it here on the board! The Radio NAZIZ'S are having a hissy fit! Your not going to get in any trouble because no one will hear you, Your transmissions are simplex and encrypted. Use a frequency in the 450 to 455 range.

RADIOMAN2002 · Post by **RADIOMAN2002** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:02 am

I agree, Personally I would use the old IMTS uhf channels, and the information posted will give you a good idea what hurdles you would have to jump to get a legal license. Pick some obscure channel that no one else is on(to prevent interference both ways). Now don't get me wrong, I am not the radio police as I stated earlier I am merely giving the information that you would need to make an informed decision as to what to do. Good luck.

BTW, who should be notified that the information for Anheuser-Busch Coumbus is in error?

RADIOMAN2002 · Post by **RADIOMAN2002** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:44 am

"BTW, who should be notified that the information for Anheuser-Busch Coumbus is in error?"

Anybody?

WB4JGI · Post by **WB4JGI** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:45 am

My commercial system is P25 based using a VHF Quantar. The station used to be mixed mode wideband. I then decided that P25 covered way better than analog and set the RX qualifier to Astro only and it works great. And we run DES-OFB or AES-256 full time. Here's the emission designators I requested my coordinator use: 16K0F3E, 8K10F1E, 11K0F3E.

If you are a business running P25 conventional (which is completely legal and allowable), running the emmission designator of 8K10F1E, then you can run DES-OFB, ADP, AES and be well within your legal right as there is NOTHING on the 601s that say anything about encryption. So exactly HOW would a user be running illegally using AES than clear P25? The frequency, power output, emission mask as well as every other parameter would be identical from an FCC licensing standpoint. As to if there are any currently using P25 conventional, that i cannot answer. I think the market has made other technologies a viable solution.

But also following logic, how do you explain the MotoTRBO systems that are utilizing the built in encryption? The radios are part 90 certified with the built in encryption and is marketed mainly as a buisness radio system. It could be surmised that if the FCC wanted businesses to run only in the clear, they would have never allowed certification of a product designed for business that includes encryption.

RADIOMAN2002 · Post by **RADIOMAN2002** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:17 am

I think this horse is well dead, I'm sure if the FCC knew that encryption was being run on top of P-25 emissions they wouldn't be happy. I cannot find anywhere in 90.35 that specifically allows digital encryption, so have fun. I plan on going P-25 AES myself eventually.

WV8VFD · Post by **WV8VFD** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:19 am

RADIOMAN2002 wrote:"BTW, who should be notified that the information for Anheuser-Busch Coumbus is in error?"

Anybody?

Send it to radioreference.com's updates.

CTAMontrose · Post by **CTAMontrose** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:00 am

RADIOMAN2002 wrote:Someone just wants to pick a fight, you aren't listening, read the original posters question, there is no mention of DES-OFB, ADP, AES, or TRBO's in my response.Actually I really would like to see where it ALLOWS those digital encryption methods, in part 90.35.

Im not trying to pick a fight... i just dont like it when people spew crap that isnt true claiming they are the ultimate athority nationwide.

RADIOMAN2002 wrote:]As far as knowing what I am talking about, with nearly 40 years in PS radio, and having licensed many agencies for DES or other DIGITAL encrypted comms, there is NOT a single BUSINESS user I know of that is licensed for DES

Well, now you can say you know of one: WPHN351 (FRN 0002544534) belongs to the Anheiser Busch analog smartnet TRS in Jacksonville, FL. I can promise you with 100% certainty that DES-XL is utilized EVERY ONE of their talkgroups. Furthermore, check out their liceses.. they even have the emmission mask aspect covered.

000858.83750000 FB2 20K0F3E, 15K0F1D

Post by **akardam** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:42 am

Guys, regardless of the OP asking about it, this isn't the place to discuss the legality of encryption on various different radio service classes, nor is it the place to discuss frequencies and usages by other entities (except with regard to the technology itself). Please keep the discussion on topic.

AL7OC · Post by **AL7OC** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:19 pm

I think the point we getting to here is that whether or not Ken can use his Securenet modules depends on the application, which in turn is indeed governed by the rules for the radio service in which he intends to use the technology. Each radio service has technical standards which are mainly concerned with preventing interference issues between spectrum users.

Although they are unlicensed services, GMRS, FRS, and MURS still have technical standards, and the 20K0F1E emission mask necessary for older Securenet technology to work is not permitted in these services. This is most likely because it will not fit in the narrow channel spacing required in these services. The mask is too wide, and adjacent channel interference is likely. Although P25 CAI is a "narrowband" mode, it is likely to cause co-channel interference with other users as it is incompatible with analog FM modes prevalent in these services. In GMRS, encryption technology is prohibited regardless of the emission mask used.

The old Securenet emission mask is fine on portions of the amateur bands, but unfortunately the use of encryption is generally not permitted. If there was enough interest in using this technology, a proposed rule change could be presented to the FCC to allow use of the mode with a "known" key. (The FCC permits amateur spread spectrum with a known spreading code...) How to go about that is beyond the scope of this thread.

After January 1 2013, Part 90 Land Mobile Radio Service users will be required to use "narrowband" emissions for the new 12.5 kHz channel spacing on the VHF and UHF bands. If Ken were to qualify for a Part 90 license, it is unlikely that he will be granted a license specifying the use of the Securenet mask which is 20kHz wide. Some hobbyists may not know that you have to specify your emission(s) for each frequency that you request on a Part 90 application, and the emissions and power allowed are frequency specific. If his radios were capable of P25 CAI modes, then he might be able to use encryption. I know of no problem with that, but he would be wise to check with an expert such as a frequency coordinator and to read and study those Part 90 rules before assembling a Land Mobile Radio system.

I think that it IS valid to discuss the application of technologies like encryption here. Ken asked how to legally use the specific Motorola technology that he purchased. The question is both a regulatory and a technical one and the answer depends on how the technology is being implemented. The user needs to both understand the specifications of the technology that he intends to use, and the regulatory parameters that we all have to deal with. Responsible use of technology is necessary to prevent a regulatory backlash against secondhand radio system designers and users. Radio is a regulated industry, and we have to take into account the regulations when assembling radio systems. If you don't want to deal with the technical and regulatory questions, then buy your OTS system and let the OEM rep deal with the details.

DE AL7OC SK

Post by **standardmissile** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:42 pm

Hi,

I am new to Motorola's encryption protocols and had a few questions. I have managed to obtain a set of Motorola Securenet capable radios on behalf of my employer, of which half are equipped with a DES-XL module and the other half dummy plugs. The radios are programmed with a key from a KVL-3011CX device. I was hoping to re-equip the dummy plug radios with DES modules as the DES-XL modules are more expensive and harder to find/acquire. My question with regards to that is, can DES modules be used in conjunction with DES-XL modules within a set of given radios, without any issues regarding reception other than transmission range in the DES module equipped radios? If not what can be done by the end user with the KVL to accommodate the DES modules with the more advanced DES-XL modules, understanding that there may be a reduction in overall transmission range in the XL equipped radios?

Thanks in advance.

AL7OC · Post by **AL7OC** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:41 pm

After Jan 01 2013, you won't be able to use those modules for Part 90 land mobile service because the emission will be too wide for the VHF Hi and UHF bands. Unless your are running DES-XL on C4FM modulation, the emission bandwidth is about 20 kHz. After the 2013 deadline, emissions must be less than 12.5 kHz wide.

PL

Post by **standardmissile** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:55 pm

AL7OC,

I am fully aware of the January 1, 2013 deadline regarding the mandatory 12.5kHz narrowbanding, as is my employer. These radios are serving as part of a temporary solution to an even more antiquated system that is being phased out, of which I am not at liberty to discuss. However if anyone does have any info regarding the questions that I had mentioned it is still more than welcome, and greatly appreciated.

AL7OC · Post by **AL7OC** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:16 pm

Depending on the radios with the XL modules, you may be able to go into CPS and program the radio not to use DES-XL by default. All the radios will have to use DES and not DES-XL. Are you at liberty to say what radio you are working with? Check the secure configurations, and make sure that the XL box is de-selected in the secure config and each personality.

PL

Post by **standardmissile** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:49 pm

AL7Oc,

Thank you for the information that you were able to provide. I am at liberty to say that we are using Motorola equipment that is not natively digital, if that can provide any additional help and can also say that we are not purview to the narrowbanding mandate by default, but choose to oblige by it as to maintain harmony with other associated organizations.

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:41 am

Not at liberty to discuss, hmm? Well, your radios are going to be analog Sabers or Spectras (dummy plug = hybrid... loads with a 3011CX). And you've "secured" these 20-year-old radios to replace an even older system?

The secret-squirrel-o-meter is on high alert...

MRFLASHPORT · Post by **MRFLASHPORT** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:58 pm

N7QQU kEN,

Don't waste your time explaining to the Batboard radio nazi's that your going to use encryption on your radio's. Just do it, Its all simplex and you can't cause any harm to anyone or anything. No one will underdstand what your saying because all they will hear is a white noise! enjoy your radios, that's what you bought them for. Don't listen to anyone trying to tell you the rules and regs ********! Get out there and have fun. The FCC is not out there, You have nothing to worry about. use FRS OR GMRS. No ones going to hear what your talking about. have at it enjoy and have fun.

N4DES · Post by **N4DES** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:43 pm

IB4TL....this was always a very entertaining thread.

IMHO, if your experimenting with encryption and talking to yourself in the AR spectrum, what sort of information could you be obscuring to violate 97.113? Testing 1,2,3,4,5? If more than 1 person is in the experimentation process and even if the key is disclosed in a public forum, I totally agree that 97.113 would be in violation. Low power, simplex and talking to yourself...is there really an issue?
I had a few locals complaining that that we were "encrypted" when I deployed my first amateur APCO25 repeater and had a bunch of regulars talking in 1's and zero's when in fact we were, and have alway's been, in the clear. After a few meetings with the local groups I got them to calm down, but it was quite a process to clear the air. I felt like we were bringing back up the PL tone arguments of the 80's.

As to Part 90 spectrum, any entity licensed in the spectrum can deploy encryption AS LONG as the emission designator allows for the secure modulation type. WIth January 2013 quickly approaching and the FCC no longer licensing wideband modulation, your options are very limited if you have or are capable of getting a license in that area of the spectrum.

GMRS/FRS and MURS, well the rules speak for themselves and I'm not going to comment further.

In short, there is no way for you to USE encryption unless you are qualified to be licensed in the Part 90 spectrum. Can you do some intermittant short 123 tests to yourself in simplex without any issues, well I would think so, but you can't have a full blown QSO that way.

That is my 2 cents worth...
Mark

AL7OC · Post by **AL7OC** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:57 pm

I don't give a hoot if someone runs encryption - the matter is strictly a technical one involving the older Securenet CVSD modulation schemes. The bandwidth is such that it will interfere with both adjacent channels in areas with 12.5 kHz channel spacing. If you want to avoid problems with adjacent channel interference, then don't use the old Securenet CVSD modulation schemes (DES, DVP, etc) on narrowband channels. Have fun, but do it in a way that won't draw unwanted attention to yourself, or cause problems to a licensed operation.

There are a lot of older Securenet equipped radios showing up on Fleabay, and the less than technically savvy might buy them, not knowing that they can't be used on narrowband FM channels.

If you want encryption, go with P25 and you can have your privacy and be narrowband compliant. The audio is superior to CVSD modes anyway. If you have a Part 90 license, be sure to add the 8K10F1E emission for P25 voice.

PL