Commercial radios on ham bands

[N7QQU-Ken]

Good Day-

I am working on a list of reasons why hams should use commercial radios on ham bands especially VHF and UHF. My focus is on emergency comms but also daily operations.
I have started the list but want to develop it a bit more:

More rugged
Longer battery life
Better filtering
More rugged accessories
Can be used as a Part 90 radio and on the ham bands

Any more ideas?

Thanks....
Ken - N7QQU

[RadioSouth]

The commercial gear is more user friendly, Ham stuff is packed with 'bells and whistles' and often menu driven. I like the ignition sense feature on the commercial stuff especially. The Ham stuff while having the valuable feature of FPP can be a PIA to operate and often requires the help of the manual to do so.

[Jim1348]

Yes, I have been a ham for a few years and I have used both commercial radios and amateur radios on amateur frequencies. Two more huge features for me over the years have been:

-Faster Scan Speed

-True Priority (in fact, on some, dual level priority!)


Another thing that can vary somewhat between the particular ham radio and the specific amateur radio is simple lockout, or shall I say Nuisance Channel Delete (unless that name is a registered Trade Mark!) It really is nice to be able to basically push one button and a channel that is not needed at the moment is out of the scan list just like that.

[MSS-Dave]

Your focus is great but how do you answer the question "Why do I have to pay $295 for a software subscription?" Sure can't suggest pirated RSS/CPS even if is available all over the place. If you want to use ANY commercial radio on the ham bands, first off the radio would have to DIRECTLY be programmable to those frequencies, not bit-banged, hex-hacked or otherwise modified to get it to go "out of band". Kind of defeats the purpose you state. I won't even go down the whoreflash road.

I know you said commercial radios but I'm focusing on Motorola since this is Batlabs. Others like Kenwood, Icom, ETC are a bit more friendly when it comes to wide/amateur band coverage and availibility of software for less than what the radio cost off of e-bay......

Dave

EDIT.....

Im commenting more about the use of these for EMCOMM in a group setting, not a personal radio you use yourself.

[Thomas]

Good Day-

I am working on a list of reasons why hams should use commercial radios on ham bands especially VHF and UHF. My focus is on emergency comms but also daily operations.
I have started the list but want to develop it a bit more:

More rugged
Longer battery life
Better filtering
More rugged accessories
Can be used as a Part 90 radio and on the ham bands

Any more ideas?

Thanks....
Ken - N7QQU

I think I would rephrase the question somthing like..."why hams should CONSIDER using commercial gear".

You make the imperssion that we all SHOULD be using commercial gear on VHF & UHF ham bands.

Some people just don't have the know how or time to make it happen. Not everyone is involved in emergency comms, ect.

For me its Astro all the way but when I try convince my friends into buying Moto or anything else I get...its too expensive...its to complicated...CPS costs how much! But when they ride with me and can hear clear audio at highway speed with the windows down it gets them thinking.

[Tim]

Amen Jim1348!!

Also like the way my radios beep at me when they are thirsty.

This VX-8 just goes away!

Tim

[Astro Spectra]

The easy answer for the CPS sub is to have your radio club buy it.

[Jim1348]

Or get a JT1000, HT1550, or other radio that allows front panel programming!

As an aside, I retired from my sworn job at the end of 2010. Over the years I have used scanners, ham rigs, commercial gear, etc. for all sorts of things. Really, the bottom line is it isn't an "either/or" proposition. One of the best mobiles I ever used, and I realize this is Bat Labs, is a General Electric Delta with a control head configured for dual priority scanning. I set it up for 4 banks of 32 channels each. It was also modified to be programmed in the field. It was kind of different to put it in the field programmable mode, but it worked. Since I worked for a county SO, I had each zone set up for different parts of the county. Several channels were common to each zone, but others were in only one bank (zone). For example, sheriff main was in all banks as F-1. MINSEF (NLEEF) was F-4 in all banks. A certain PD car-to-car was only in Zone 3 and so on.

I also had a Yaesu FT-8800 for amateur AND the ability to listen out of band. One of the PDs used their city public works UHF repeaters for car-to-car. I usually left that on the "right" band of the FT-8800 and didn't scan as often.

I have also used scanners over the years for work. Some agencies near me use P25. Neither my ham radio nor my conventional radio would decode P25. And, more recently, we had switched to a statewide 800 mHz digital trunked system,

So my point is you may find yourself in a position that more than one tool will accomplish the job, but some times Tool A is better in this scenario and Tool B is better in that scenario.

I guess the best example I can think of in hamming is versatility of amateur gear. If somebody is chatting and suddenly says, "Lets go to 146.460 with PL 100.0" with a Motorola with pre-programmed channles, you are all set if you happen to have that freqeuncy and PL Tone already programmed . If not, good luck!

[N7QQU-Ken]

Thanks for the ideas and discussion.

The ham usage I was thinking of was focused on emergency communication. All hams working with an EOC will be using ICS procedures and structure. Part of that procedure is developing a frequency plan ahead of the event. This is form ICS-217, the Radio Frequency Assignment Worksheet. It is used by the Communications Unit Leader to assist in determining frequency allocations that are available to the communication unit. During an event, ICS-217 is the pool of frequencies that are available and from that pool ICS-205 is created. The Incident Radio Communications Plan (ICS 205) provides information on all radio frequency or trunked radio system talkgroup assignments for each operational period. The plan is a summary of information obtained about available radio frequencies or talkgroups and the assignments of those resources by the Communications Unit Leader for use by incident responders. Information from the Incident Radio Communications Plan on frequency or talkgroup assignments is normally placed on the Assignment List (ICS 204). The ICS 205 is prepared by the Communications Unit Leader and given to the Planning Section Chief for inclusion in the Incident Action Plan.

The idea is that all the setting, frequency, offset, tone, etc are programmed into the radios from the ICS-217 form. That will cover all the pool of available "channels" that could be used. Once the ICS-205 is created (and modified during the event) each radio will be pre-programmed and ready to go.

It would be nice if each ham would set their radios up and leave it alone but it never seems to work that way:) We spend way too much time "fussing" with radios and less time using them.

73 - Ken

[talviar]

Reasons I use commercial gear. . . .

Better Receiver front end. . . .
Less susceptible to front end overload and intermod issues. . . . (in most cases)
Better Battery Life on the HT's. . . .
110W on the mobiles (and for those that say it's only 3 db. . . . I have been in cases where a difference of 5 watts on a mobile makes a night and day difference so 110W is my preference)
Easier to program . . . .
Scan that Works! (dual priority is very nice along with just having priority scan that works. . . why a $100 scanner has priority scan but a ham radio doesn't I'll never know. . . . )
Durability. . . . Most of the ham gear I have owned over the years doesn't last very long. . . . I carried an MT1000 on my belt daily for 12 years and only had an issue with batteries and antennas (ie the wear and tear item) versus the ham radio that lasted only 4 years being carried daily on a belt. . . .
Radios (HT and mobile) that have enough audio when turned up that you don't have to run it full tilt AND hold it to your ear to hear it in a moving vehicle with the windows down. . . .

Just a few reasons. . . .

And for those that mention programming. . . . The rig I am carrying now was programmed a year ago (purchased at a ham fest a year ago) and hasn't needed touched since. . . it has what I need for daily use 160 channels and still have empty slots to fill should I need to. . . I keep a Yaesu FT-60 for the few times I travel out of the area and need front panel programming. . . . .

Just my $2.25 and as always YMMV!

73,
Tony, KA3VOR

[N7QQU-Ken]

Good ideas and comments.

I will compile the list and publish here in the next few days.
Thanks for the ideas and comments.

I do like the idea of having a club buy the software. Also many counties and cities have radio shops that can program the radios. The city or county emergency manager can help out with making the contact.

Any more thoughts?

Ken

[talviar]

Ken,

In the case of the local club here UARC-W3PIE there are 4 of us affiliated or working for the local radio shops. . . . We handle the programming at no charge. . . . And work with the folks to have an accurate list before doing so. . . . U might check, might be a case of someone with access to the programming already who is being silent. . . .

73,
Tony, KA3VOR

[a_j_b]

Or get a JT1000, HT1550, or other radio that allows front panel programming!

An excellent point. Those radios have FPP because a federal customer has a requirement for it.
If you can identify what other radios are sold to that market you'll identify what other radios have FPP. I believe Icom P25 radios are included in that and their software is extremely reasonable. Their latest P25 radios are also very, very nice.

[MTS2000des]

Or get a JT1000, HT1550, or other radio that allows front panel programming!

keep in mind these radios only maintain their part 90 certification with FPP if factory authorized methods of performing FPP are utilized. Doing the bit-band mod on a JT1000 to not require the dongle for FPP makes it just as bootleg on part 90 as your FT-60 or VX-6.

That being said, my biggest reason for preferring LMR gear is audio quality and proper squelch muting and squelch tail elimination.
I have a Yaesu FT8800R, and while it's a nice toy, the PL decode is a joke, it constantly opens even when a wrong carrier is present. This happens even when using DCS. The factory is clueless, but apparently the stupid way the CTCSS/DCS unmute logic works is backasswards. Been this way on every Yaesu radio since the 1980's. My Kenwood TMV71A is better, but neither radio support proper turn off code and SQE on RX.

Not to mention, there is something magical about a VFD. Ahh, the blue green Spectra/Syntor X9000 display lights up your world!

[a_j_b]

Ahh, the blue green Spectra/Syntor X9000 display lights up your world!

Amen!

[N4DES]

The only amateur grade equipment I own is an Yaesu FT-847 for HF. Everything else is commercial grade and I will never look back at those "toy HT's"!

[com501]

I use an SGC for HF, it has 'squelch', a very useful feature on HF.

[SlimBob]

After years of using Japanese radios, I switched to a 1990s vintage Batwing Radio because I didn't have to worry. I didn't have to worry about:

1) someone trying to figure out how to operate the radio when I wasn't there
2) explaining operation
3) programming the radio -- either the channel is there or not
4) keeping it permanently installed in the car in summer or winter
5) someone breaking into the car and stealing it
6) making contact with another station on simplex
7) trying to make the radio louder so I could hear
8 ) setting deviation, PL levels and how the radio "sounds".[0]
9) having anything attached after the antenna jack.
10) adding an amplifier.
11) Making it through an eight-hour shift without changing batteries even once.
12) Desense. From anything.

[0]: At one hamfest I was told I sounded the same in person as on the radio.

[com501]

Funny, I thought that's how radios were supposed to sound....

[Tom in D.C.]

I own a VX-5R and an FT-60, plus a slew of Motorola HTs, with the Motorolas being the ones I actually use. One of the sometimes overlooked values of the ham HTs is their use as a service tool, certainly not the equivalent in any way of a good service monitor but for checking PLs, frequencies, etc. at the bench they are fast and simple to use. I've also met and spoke with several LMR techs at hamfests who swear by the ham HTs for quick check field use, so maybe it depends to some degree on what you personally need from a radio. Also, the ability of a VX-5R to scan a channel to determine the PL or DPL being transmitted on a repeater's output OR input is a useful thing to have. I've never checked to see if my FT-60 can do that but it probably can.

[Will]

I use a Icom U400 with the keypad and a Zetron 8B to check UHF systems I work on. It has been a great tool since the '80s.

I still prefer my Spectra, Maratrac and Jedi radios.

In fact I will be in South Las Vegas this weekend to help the Temple Station Hamwatch Team run the command center for the Baker to Vegas Relay Run. This time we will have a new Yeasu dual band mobile and three Spectra radios at the CP.

b2v.com

[com501]

I use my R8000a to check all that stuff. If I need to do an on-air check, I use one of my XTS's.

[SlimBob]

I use my R8000a to check all that stuff. If I need to do an on-air check, I use one of my XTS's.

Yeah? Do you work the 'peater with it? =P

[tvsjr]

I use my R8000a to check all that stuff. If I need to do an on-air check, I use one of my XTS's.

Yeah? Do you work the 'peater with it? =P

If he's working his peter with his R8000, well, that's really more than I need to know

[WB6DGN]

"SlimBob wrote:

"com501 wrote:I use my R8000a to check all that stuff. If I need to do an on-air check, I use one of my XTS's.



Yeah? Do you work the 'peater with it? =P

As a matter of fact, I can, and do on occasion with my HP8924, even full duplex if I wish. Super sensitive off the air monitoring and sufficient "Duplex" output to hit several local repeaters with good quieting.

[com501]

Yup, you can work repeaters with test gear, and with a simple outboard amp, I can get almost 1.5watts from my HP8920b drive. That's PLENTY to hit a repeater that you can hear (if its working!)

The R8000a is much the same way.

[Will]

Well, the two meter Spectra out performed the Kenwood TM-D710Dual band radio on two meters. The Kwoodie was on a commercial ground plane antenna and had a stronger signal. The Spectra was on a Ringo with the second element 15 feet higher than the ground plane and had a weaker signal into the Sandy Valley station but was much more readable. Something like a forty mile path up over the mountains west of Las Vegas.

NO MORE junk Ringo, Comet Diamond antennas.....

I will be checking to see why the Kwoddie did not sound so good... more on this later.

[kb2crk]

I run a maratrac on 2 meters and PS band for CERT. no mods and the radio works better than any ham rig i have owned.
I also use a 40w UHF maxtrac on 440mhz that reaches out further than my old 2meter kenwood hammy rig that was a fifty watter. bothe of these are in the van.
i have a maxtrac in the house for vhf PS and 2 meters.
two ht750's for 440mhz ham, a lowband maratrac on the bench that is almost ready for six meters. (need a little spare time). i would not go back to hammy gear in the car as long as i can get stuff like the older commercial gear.