Centracom Gold Elite Ethernet Link

[fireradio]

Greetings,

I maintain a SmartZone 4.1 system that is shared with three counties. The CEB is in County A and there's a remote console in County B. County B's remote Gold Elite console is connected via a Motorola TeNSr/Zhone/Premisys channel bank and a T1 back to the CEB in County A.

County B is going to be losing their T1 circuit. It will be replaced with an Ethernet MPLS link due to budgetary/political reasons. The link will be 1.544 mbps but with TCP/IP overhead, available bandwidth will be less than 1.544 mbps.

This means I have to figure out how to get their Gold Elite connected to the CEB via an IP link.

I know there are several products out there that claim to do what I need, which is basically just get 600 ohm audio pairs and 9600 baud RS232 on an Ethernet network, but I was just curious if anyone has actually done this with Centracom Gold Elite and has any suggestions/reports of how well it works. In addition to the console, they also have a paging base that requires an audio circuit going back to a BIM at the CEB.

I'm looking at the Zetron 6302, the "silver box" made by Larry McGee Co., the Omnitronics IPR400, and the Orion Systems RoIP solution as possible options.

Any feedback is welcome!

Thanks!

[FMROB]

Don't know much about the Zetron 6302, the "silver box" made by Larry McGee Co., the Omnitronics IPR400, and the Orion Systems RoIP, however in looking quickly at the Zetron unit that should fit the bill well.

I have used the JPS NXU2A with great success. I have even used them over the internet, with no issues. I would assume that since this will be a direct link and always on, the results should be ok. The JPS box is straight forward, with do COR for PTT, and isn't really that expensive. The support is good, and they are easy to set up. Hope that little info helps out.

Rob

[Bill_G]

I'm not a Gold Elite expert by any means, but your current CEB must have an AIMI card in it if it connects to the other system via T1. That T1 terminates to a DSU of some kind (probably a Kentrox), which in turn converts it to ethernet that plugs into one of the ports on the AIMI card. So, your migration might be as simple as plugging into whatever device terminates the new MPLS circuit. Barring that, you may have to hire Motorola to make the necessary changes to the current configuration to function with the new transport.

[d119]

Based on what he's saying, it sounds like his OP's are remotes, using ROCI/CORI cards. That being the case, there is no local CEB.

So he would need to run a minimum of three 600 ohm audio pairs (SEL/UNSEL/TX) and 9600 baud RS232 (CIE link) back to the cards in the CEB.

NXU won't do the job as it doesn't have the audio capacity that's required (2 RX + 1 TX). Even more receive pairs are required if the remote ops are using MON1/MON2 speakers.

I'd suggest getting the ethernet/MPLS circuit's bandwidth improved such that you can just convert the T1 output of the TeNSr directly to ethernet, and vice-versa on the other end. Perhaps Metro Ethernet, if your carrier offers it? I daresay that even a DSL circuit might provide better performance, but the reliability issue comes into play.

[FMROB]

Based on what he's saying, it sounds like his OP's are remotes, using ROCI/CORI cards. That being the case, there is no local CEB.

So he would need to run a minimum of three 600 ohm audio pairs (SEL/UNSEL/TX) and 9600 baud RS232 (CIE link) back to the cards in the CEB.

NXU won't do the job as it doesn't have the audio capacity that's required (2 RX + 1 TX). Even more receive pairs are required if the remote ops are using MON1/MON2 speakers.

I'd suggest getting the ethernet/MPLS circuit's bandwidth improved such that you can just convert the T1 output of the TeNSr directly to ethernet, and vice-versa on the other end. Perhaps Metro Ethernet, if your carrier offers it? I daresay that even a DSL circuit might provide better performance, but the reliability issue comes into play.

Agreed, in that configuration it does not appear that any of the products he listed or the NXU will work.

[Bill_G]

Okay. I see what you're saying. They ran a T1 to a channel bank, and broke it out as individual DS0's to a console, not a CEB. My mistake.

None the less, my answer still applies. If all that is changing is the transport, then insert a media converter. The telco T1 cable used to terminate to the TenSR. Now it's going to plug into the MPLS modem, which produces hot and cold running ethernets on the other side. Hook a magic box ethernet to T1 converter (aka DSU) between the MPLS modem and the TenSR, and you're golden. Budda bing budda boom. You've increased your single point of failure to about 6 single points of failure, but we get paid by the hour.

Don't forget to bring a power strip.

[d119]

Problem is that his MPLS circuit only provides T-carrier bandwidth - 1.544mbps - so as long as he's fractional, he's OK. But overhead for the media converter must be considered...

I'm curious what this MPLS circuit is going to cost this guy, and if there are better options.

[Bill_G]

For one position? Nah. I've run three positions down a single T1 without a problem. We had this problem years ago. Motorola wanted a dedicated T1 for each new console, but the only capacity left on a 28T microwave was a single T1. They worked fine.

[Bill_G]

For one position? Nah. I've run three positions down a single T1 without a problem. We had this problem years ago. Motorola wanted a dedicated T1 for each new console, but the only capacity left on a 28T microwave was a single T1. They worked fine.

[alex]

You could [in theory] do this with a Cisco Router.

You would need 3 E&M Cards (6 ports total) and one Serial Card (or just use the AUX port).

I'll work on the configuration, but I have to get my Gold Elite working first. Anyone who wants to help with parts donations are always welcome.

From PMing with D119, you need to emulate the 14 wires:

Select (2 wires) - 1 E&M port
Unselect (2 wires) - 1 E&M port
Monitor 1 (2 wires) - 1 E&M port [ I guess? you could skip this if you were not using the monitor 1]
Monitor 2 (2 wires) - 1 E&M port [ I guess? you could skip this if you were not using the monitor 2]
Microphone (2 wires) - 1 E&M Port
Serial - 4 wires -- tx, rx, busy, ground - Serial card or aux port

the config for most of this is floating around the board to tie the E&M ports together, then you just need to use xconnect to bridge the serial ports. I just don't know if the RS232 that is transmitted is sync or async - I'm assuming the latter since the 7 pair cable does not appear to have enough wires for the TXD/RXD lines....

Alex

[d119]

You'd need to have ROCI and CORI cards to test the configuration. These are special cards that perform the remote op stuff. As I recall it works like this:

COIM in the CEB with an RS232 card above it. RS232 card connects to a modem (or channel bank) which goes out to the remote op.

ROCI in the CEB that has the audio stuff going to phone lines. There's a terminal block on the front of the ROCI that the audio lines connect to.

CORI in the remote CIE. RS232 and audio from the remote CEB connect to this, and then this card in turn connects to the CIE main board.

So you essentially have two separate CAT-5 type cables going into a hole on the back of the CIE - one carrying the RS232 data back and forth from the local modem (or channel bank), and one carrying audio.

Echoing Bill's statements, after thinking about this a bit I agree that the simplest method for this is a media converter to drop the T1 out of the channel bank to ethernet on each end, and call it a day. Anything else is just over-engineering (overkill).

[fireradio]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed input thus far. I haven't been more responsive because I've fled to Florida to escape a week of winter back home.

Let me make a few clarifications/updates:

1) The console is already set up using a ROCI/CORI configuration. The E&Ms and the RS-232 go directly from the CIE to the TeNSr. The Ethernet goes into a router, then into a V.34 analog modem, which then goes into an E&M port on the TeNSr (yes, ghetto, but we didn't have any HSU cards for the channel bank and all its doing is pulling configs from the Centracom server).

2) We don't use the Monitor 1 and Monitor 2 functions, so all we have are 3 audio circuits to worry about.

3) Alex, I don't *think* the RS-232 is synchronous -- just doesn't make much sense that it would be, but I suppose anything is possible. If it is synchronous, that really complicates things!

4) The problem with simply tossing a media converter in the mix is that the new link is 1.544 mbps minus TCP/IP overhead. As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong), the TeNSrs expect full 1.544 mpbs to be available, even if you're only using a few timeslots on them. In other words, they don't do fractional bandwidth.

5) Two vendors, Zetron and Omnitronics, have offered to lend me demo units prior to sale. For others who may be interested, here are the products I'll be testing:

Omnitronics IPR400 http://omnitronicsworld.com/voip-connectivity/

Zetron 6302 http://zetron.com/en-us/products/radiod ... teway.aspx

Thanks again!

[Bill_G]

The media converter will provide a full T1 to the tensr. It won't know the difference. T1 in, T1 out, mpls in between. The converter will do all the buffering.

[firemedic]

Rad IPMux-1E ordered with the T1 port. Works well. As stated the T1 won't know the difference of how it got there. One on each end. MPLS in the middle.

[Bill_G]

Perfect. Good choice.

[fireradio]

Just wanted to thank everyone for their input on this issue. I am going to give the T1 to Ethernet media converter a try, since it is the cheapest and quickest solution.

Anyone who knows of a good (and affordable - used equipment OK) source for a RAD IPMux, please PM me!

Thanks again all.

[fireradio]

Rad IPMux-1E ordered with the T1 port. Works well. As stated the T1 won't know the difference of how it got there. One on each end. MPLS in the middle.

Hello again. Thank you for everyone's recommendations. We have acquired two RAD IP Mux-1's and placed them at each end of the circuit. I've built an IPSEC VPN that is working well between the two sites, now I just need to get the channel banks talking through the IP-Mux.

This is where I could really use some help. I've never worked with these devices, and I'm more of an IP guy, not a circuit-switched guy.

I have read the IP-Mux manual, and while it was somewhat helpful, its not really telling me everything I need to know. I have managed to configure the RAD devices to see each other and establish a connection with each other through the VPN; however, the TeNSr/Zhone channel banks are not communicating. I'm certain it is because I do not have the T1 settings configured correctly on the IP-Mux, but after fiddling with it for a few hours today, I've still not had any luck.

I was hoping you all might be able to chime in with typical configuation settings for the IP-Mux that would allow two Motorola channel banks to communicate... I don't have access to the config screens right now, but I can take screen shots tomorrow and post my current configuration.

Any help is greatly appreciated... I really need to get this site off the T1 soon!

Thanks

Charlie

[Bill_G]

There are two basic qualities you need to set for T1 - encoding and timing. In general, most T1's use B8ZS encoding though there is still the oddball using AMI. In general, timing is derived from the receive. Check your TenSr for the encoding settings, and check the alarms for why they aren't connecting.

[fireradio]

Thanks, Bill.

Here are screen shots of my current settings. I will see what info the TeNSr has to offer, as well.

http://imgur.com/a/pxwhK

I am running into an odd problem that seems to be caused by the RAD IPmux. When I enable the connection to the remote RAD IPmux, my LAN basically becomes unusable. The latency to ping google is 2 to 3 seconds; essentially the entire LAN becomes unusable.

The second I disable the connection via the config page of the IPmux, everything is usable again. I even connected my router and the IPmux up directly to the modem, to eliminate the possibility of any LAN devices causing problems, and it made no difference. The last screen shot on the page linked above shows you my ping times to Google normally and then with the IPmux connection enabled.

Both ends of the connection are on a 25+ mbps WAN, so I do not understand how one little IPmux can clog up my entire connection. Any ideas?

Thanks!

[Bill_G]

Break out Wireshark, and look at the activity.

[d119]

This is why I *REALLY* do not like RAD products. They are especially difficult to configure, and no two installations are ever identical.

There's better stuff out there, likely for less money. You just have to do your homework. I know Extreme Networks makes some of this stuff. Cisco solutions are also pretty straightforward.

My biggest gripe of all with RAD stuff (as sometimes you just plain DON'T have a choice but to make what's already there work) is that their customer service and technical support is BEYOND terrible, and I base that on MULTIPLE personal experiences. They also go out of their way to attempt to charge for support where ever possible.

I wish you luck. I've installed some pretty large networks with RAD equipment, and when it was done and working, I walked away from them feeling like I needed a rape shower.

[MSS-Dave]

This is why I *REALLY* do not like RAD products. They are especially difficult to configure, and no two installations are ever identical.

There's better stuff out there, likely for less money. You just have to do your homework. I know Extreme Networks makes some of this stuff. Cisco solutions are also pretty straightforward.

My biggest gripe of all with RAD stuff (as sometimes you just plain DON'T have a choice but to make what's already there work) is that their customer service and technical support is BEYOND terrible, and I base that on MULTIPLE personal experiences. They also go out of their way to attempt to charge for support where ever possible.

I wish you luck. I've installed some pretty large networks with RAD equipment, and when it was done and working, I walked away from them feeling like I needed a rape shower.

I really wish there was a "post of the day" sticker on here for this.

There was this one time in the dim and distant past where we had about 20 nodes in a T-3 ring using RAD. Co-worker calls and asked for some tech support to change something really minor. They say hey! we have this new version of software we would like you to try. So, he loads it up, reads things and one by one the nodes drop like Kim Kardashian's ass in a magazine. 34 hour outage to rebuild things. RAD tech support? On the phone but kind of like talking to outsourced customer service. Found out later there was a bug in the software that read then flushed the config files in each node without notice and wouldn't allow a reload. We had a service contract at the time but they tried to charge us saying our tech didn't use the software correctly. Right. They got the finger.

We now use GE/Lentronics JungleMux Sonet networking. Top notch stuff and tech support is first rate as well.