Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

This forum is for discussions regarding System Infrastructure and Related Equipment. This includes but is not limited to repeaters, base stations, consoles, voters, Voice over IP, system design and implementation, and other related topics.

Moderator: Queue Moderator

Locked
krazybob
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:29 am

Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by krazybob »

Our MSF 5000's was just adjusted and the squelch is set at around 35 and can open easily for a HT 70 miles away -- but most stations now have a squelch tail. I can't find a reverse burst setting and we do transmit PL. I don't understand the correlation between the repeater squelch and the receiver squelch. But the most important issue is the squelch tail. Our coordination body rules don't permit a tail, and I don't much care for it either.

Sooo..... how do we set the squelch(s) properly and is there a reverse burst setting? As I understand it the MSF has a squelch-tail duration that is fixed. I wonder why we've never noticed a squelch tail before. Does the PL setting influence a squelch tail at all?
Bob - AF6D
__________________
FF EMT IS-400 Certified
AF6D Amateur Extra Class K6ECS Trustee
So. Calif. Emergency Comm. Service Group
147.705(-) 167.9
User avatar
KI4M
Posts: 158
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 8:08 pm

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by KI4M »

Are the subscriber units a commercial unit like Kenwood, Motorola, etc. or are they ham rigs? I have noticed also on some other repeaters when you get the squelch set tight that it also causes squelch tails on some units versus when it is set a little loose it doesn't. If the subscribers are ham radios they drop the PL when the carrier drops. They do not turn the PL off before the carrier drop unlike commercial radios. If they are ham rigs, or if the loosening of the squelch doesn't work an audio delay board might help. I have heard those can help eliminate squelch tails but I haven't tried one myself.

I guess I should note that my references above to the ham rigs and PL are assuming you have the MSF setup for PL decode on RX.
krazybob
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:29 am

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by krazybob »

Ham radios also hear the squelch tail and they didn't before be lowered the squelch low enough to hear low power or distant stations that a tight squelch was missing. I use all Motorola radios. Ham radios hear the tail as well.

The MSF is setup for PL encode / decode.

We are using the built-in controller and did not experience this before. If know that if we use a Kenwood TKR-750 and a RFC-210 controller with audio delay there's no tail. Allstar will apparently handle this for us as I have just learned. Being a ham I wanted to know WHY we suddenly have an issue.
Bob - AF6D
__________________
FF EMT IS-400 Certified
AF6D Amateur Extra Class K6ECS Trustee
So. Calif. Emergency Comm. Service Group
147.705(-) 167.9
krazybob
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:29 am

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by krazybob »

We already have Allstar linking via a remote base and a RTCM off of the repeater site. It works great. But this issue would be easily solved by using an Arcom RC-210 controller on the Motorola MSF 5000 repeater. The RC-210 allows us to turn off the PL before the transmitter drops, as well as it has the audio delay board installed. The Allstar RTCM that we plan on installing at each repeater site (they all have internet) will have to go through the RC-210 just to solve such a simple problem. I've heard many MSF 5000's and I still don't know why we suddenly have squelch tails just because wee backed off on the squelch to let weaker signals break through that the receiver or repeater squelch were previously blocking.
Bob - AF6D
__________________
FF EMT IS-400 Certified
AF6D Amateur Extra Class K6ECS Trustee
So. Calif. Emergency Comm. Service Group
147.705(-) 167.9
Will
Posts: 6823
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2001 4:00 pm

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by Will »

AND/OR setting as explained long ago.
krazybob
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:29 am

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by krazybob »

I'm sorry but I see no discussion of AND/OR. Is there another thread that discussed it that perhaps I am not aware of? There were no matches for AND/OR when I searched.
Bob - AF6D
__________________
FF EMT IS-400 Certified
AF6D Amateur Extra Class K6ECS Trustee
So. Calif. Emergency Comm. Service Group
147.705(-) 167.9
motorola_otaku
Posts: 1854
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:03 am

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by motorola_otaku »

In either the channel or personality configuration tab you have three settings: Receiver Activation, Repeater Activation, and Repeater Holding. You can set any of the three to carrier, tone , or both (or always on.) Ideally you want receiver set to carrier and both repeater settings set to both carrier and tone. It won't completely eliminate the squelch crash from the Bowelfungs, but it will shorten it up. Motorola-standard reverse burst decode is enabled by default and cannot be disabled.
krazybob
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:29 am

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by krazybob »

Thank you for the advice!
Bob - AF6D
__________________
FF EMT IS-400 Certified
AF6D Amateur Extra Class K6ECS Trustee
So. Calif. Emergency Comm. Service Group
147.705(-) 167.9
krazybob
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:29 am

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by krazybob »

Let me ask you this if I may. How does one set the receiver squelch and the repeater squelch? What/how is the difference. The Moto service manual isn't really clear on this.
Bob - AF6D
__________________
FF EMT IS-400 Certified
AF6D Amateur Extra Class K6ECS Trustee
So. Calif. Emergency Comm. Service Group
147.705(-) 167.9
User avatar
d119
Posts: 3532
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2002 4:00 pm

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by d119 »

Bobbo - you could also drop one of these in the repeater and just about completely eliminate the squelch tail, except on noisy signals:

http://www.catauto.com/index.php/2014-1 ... lch-module

Another option is this:

http://www.rlccontrollers.com/accessories.html (RLC-MOT)
krazybob
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:29 am

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by krazybob »

BINGO!!! Thank you for finding these. The RLC-MOT was supposed to be offered by Link Communications but they don't have it on their web site and their sales department hasn't contacted me.
Bob - AF6D
__________________
FF EMT IS-400 Certified
AF6D Amateur Extra Class K6ECS Trustee
So. Calif. Emergency Comm. Service Group
147.705(-) 167.9
krazybob
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:29 am

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by krazybob »

For the record we have setup the squelch using the instructions in the manual. I am now reading on RB that apparently I don't know how to setup AND/OR. Again, we've followed the instructions in the service manual. However, if there is something that we - a team of us - have missed my pride and ego won't be hurt at all to be shown or told how to employ AND/OR. This machine was working fine until the squelch was decreased in the software.

Thank you all for your guidance and willingness to help a new guy.
Bob - AF6D
__________________
FF EMT IS-400 Certified
AF6D Amateur Extra Class K6ECS Trustee
So. Calif. Emergency Comm. Service Group
147.705(-) 167.9
User avatar
kcbooboo
Batboard $upporter
Posts: 2117
Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 9:03 am

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by kcbooboo »

The RLC-MOT is definitely ON the Link/RLC web site somewhere. It's just not easy to find. Also, they have the Micor squelch chips that they will sell individually if asked (I did).

AND/OR squelch is done in RSS through the three fields in the Mode/Channel screens: Receiver Control, Repeater Activation, and Repeater Holdin. These should all have SC for "audio Squelch" AND "Coded (PL/DPL) squelch". You need both carrier AND tone to open the receiver or repeater audio path. Lose either one and the path closes.

The difference between "receiver" and "repeater" squelches has more to do with whether the station is being used as a base or as a stand-alone repeater (using the internal controller). It also depends on where an external controller is picking up its COR signal. Just treat all of them identically, including setting the squelch.

I usually adjust the squelch EEPots using a digital metering panel and a laptop computer. With the antenna system attached (so you get all the site noise coming in), adjust the squelch so the R1 UN SQ and RPT USQ LEDs just go off and don't flicker, then increase the EEPOT value by 3-5 so they STAY OFF.

Bob M.
krazybob
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:29 am

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by krazybob »

Thank you Bob for the helpful advice. This is why I prefer to come here.

I actually do know AND/OR but appreciate you clarifying it. As for the MICOR squelch we located it here: http://www.rlccontrollers.com/accessories.html I definitely don't like the two stage squelch of the MSF. It wasn't an issue before we properly tuned the repeater and I was directly involved. We watched the MUX screen and adjusted the squelch using the front panel toggle switches until R1 UN SQ and RPT USQ LEDs just went off. We now have greater receive range and better squelch action. We have been running the internal controller in anticipation of adding a RTCM for Allstar. It has squelch and CTCSS control through scripting but the programmer tells me that he emulated the MSF. LOL.

Bob - AF6D
Allstar Node 41660
Bob - AF6D
__________________
FF EMT IS-400 Certified
AF6D Amateur Extra Class K6ECS Trustee
So. Calif. Emergency Comm. Service Group
147.705(-) 167.9
motorola_otaku
Posts: 1854
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:03 am

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by motorola_otaku »

I would strongly recommend using CTCSS logic from the MSF and letting it handle PL/DPL encode/decode when you do the RTCM interface. I'm actually re-doing a URI to MSF interface right now that was originally set up as a "DSP interface" (only TX and RX audio plus ground were sent to the URI) because it wouldn't properly decode or encode CTCSS. I have several others in service with the station handling tone encode/decode and they all work fine.

The signal paths in this article will get you where you need to go: http://repeater-builder.com/motorola/ms ... acing.html
krazybob
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:29 am

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by krazybob »

Thank you for the link. We've got that and it is helpful. We are seriously considering adding the RLC-MOT.
Bob - AF6D
__________________
FF EMT IS-400 Certified
AF6D Amateur Extra Class K6ECS Trustee
So. Calif. Emergency Comm. Service Group
147.705(-) 167.9
User avatar
kcbooboo
Batboard $upporter
Posts: 2117
Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 9:03 am

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by kcbooboo »

Also, Kevin W3KKC has a Micor Squelch board that's most definitely less expensive than any other out there. On repeater-builder, go to "Repeater Builder (the company)" and check out their "MS-25 MICOR Squelch" product, or google it.

However the stock MSF squelch is a close alternative, if set up properly.

Bob M.
krazybob
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:29 am

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by krazybob »

Thanks for the info, Bob. We've decided to add a MICOR-based squelch and an audio delay board. We'd just add the RC-210 controller but as I've mentioned we're doing the Allstar thing and there's no need for it. Thanks again.
Bob - AF6D
__________________
FF EMT IS-400 Certified
AF6D Amateur Extra Class K6ECS Trustee
So. Calif. Emergency Comm. Service Group
147.705(-) 167.9
User avatar
d119
Posts: 3532
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2002 4:00 pm

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by d119 »

krazybob wrote:Thanks for the info, Bob. We've decided to add a MICOR-based squelch and an audio delay board. We'd just add the RC-210 controller but as I've mentioned we're doing the Allstar thing and there's no need for it. Thanks again.
Those two things are somewhat mutually exclusive, Bob. If you're adding an audio delay, you won't need the MICOR squelch as the audio delay will eliminate ALL squelch tails and DTMF tones (you won't even hear the first blip of DTMF on the repeater transmitter). The caveat is users that "duplex" or listen to their own transmissions through the repeater will have a hell of a time doing so due to the delay until they get used to it.

The MICOR squelch doesn't do anything to DTMF tones on the transmitter, and obviously gets rid of MOST (but not all) of the squelch tail without the need for audio delays.

Putting both in the machine is a waste of money.
Will
Posts: 6823
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2001 4:00 pm

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by Will »

d119 wrote:[
Putting both in the machine is a waste of money.
Why bastardize the MSF5000........
krazybob
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:29 am

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by krazybob »

I agree to a point. Our frequency coordinator has a policy that requires a short or no squelch time. They specifically recommend the RLC-MOT. Our MSF, like most others, has great audio. I am going to hate running it through am external controller.
Bob - AF6D
__________________
FF EMT IS-400 Certified
AF6D Amateur Extra Class K6ECS Trustee
So. Calif. Emergency Comm. Service Group
147.705(-) 167.9
User avatar
d119
Posts: 3532
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2002 4:00 pm

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by d119 »

TASMA doesn't regulate the squelch tail length, they merely mention alternatives to get rid of it, no requirement by any means to do anything about it - the thing can blow squelch the entire length of the hang time and TASMA has no recourse over that.
krazybob
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:29 am

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by krazybob »

Well, actually they do.
-6 dB IF bandwidth should be no greater than +/- 6 kHz, & -50 dB IF bandwidth should be no greater than +/- 10 kHz. If IF filter retrofit is needed in the repeater receiver, Com-Spec in Orange, CA (http://com-spec.com/narrow.htm) has filters for many commercial-grade receivers. These filters are designed for 12.5 kHz channel spacing and should yield exceptional 15 kHz adjacent-channel rejection. Repeater users should not be adversely affected provided they do not run excessive deviation on their transmitters. If installation of the narrow IF filter causes poor carrier squelch action, try one of the following:

If the receiver doesn’t have a “Micor” squelch, install a Micor squelch board (available from Link Communications: http://www.link-comm.com, part # RLC-MOT), or purchase the M7716 Micor squelch IC & build your own. (Schematic – Close the schematic window by using the X in the upper right corner to return to this page.)


Disable carrier access & use CTCSS squelch only. Use an audio delay module in your repeater controller to reduce the length of the normally long CTCSS squelch tail.
They aren't suggesting here. They are telling. As I learned long ago in law there is a difference between may and shall. This appears to be more than a suggestion.
Bob - AF6D
__________________
FF EMT IS-400 Certified
AF6D Amateur Extra Class K6ECS Trustee
So. Calif. Emergency Comm. Service Group
147.705(-) 167.9
User avatar
escomm
Queue Moderator
Posts: 5170
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:24 pm

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by escomm »

Sigh

"Reduce the length...." does not mean "Short or no squelch tale"

Stop putting words in people's mouths and creating problems for yourself. You seem adept at doing both things
krazybob
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:29 am

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by krazybob »

As a moderator I would expect more courtesy from you. :-(

With that said, perhaps you choose to ignore the word "install". "Use an audio delay module..." The words "Install" and "Use" are directives instructing us to take action.

We have long tails. I cannot think of a single repeater in the L.A. area that has tails. Maybe you do in Northridge but out here in the IE we don't. Since we aren't running our RC-210's with their audio delay boards we need another solution.

I came here asking to learn something. I wanted to know why two squelch settings. The Motorola manual doesn't explain why and I still don't have an answer. As the thread progressed I was insulted and told that I don't know AND/OR. I sure do. Carrier AND CTCSS. Thanks for the warm welcome Mr. Sandy. I then asked how I could accomplish a reduction in the tail by using our Allstar adapter. As an industry professional you already have all of the answers. I apologize if I don't.
Bob - AF6D
__________________
FF EMT IS-400 Certified
AF6D Amateur Extra Class K6ECS Trustee
So. Calif. Emergency Comm. Service Group
147.705(-) 167.9
User avatar
escomm
Queue Moderator
Posts: 5170
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:24 pm

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by escomm »

I'm sorry you don't like what you're being told.

Apparently in your rush to manufacture another problem for yourself, you missed the big words on the top of TASMA's technical standards page. I'll do you a solid, and copy & paste them over here for you in order to save yourself any additional confusion. I have added emphasis for your convenience.
In addition the TASMA technical committee recommends these specifications to all 2 meter repeater owners in order to prevent interference situations:
Again, I must reiterate you would be well-served to stop putting words in people's mouths and creating problems for yourself.
krazybob
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:29 am

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by krazybob »

I don't see how sniping helps. You have not communicated with them on this topic as I have. For example, the repeater that has been tearing up our input with deviation in excess of 4.2KHz has been told to decrease their deviation to or below 4.2KHz. That was not a recommendation but a policy. You are a moderator trying to create an argument. Rather than hijacking my thread to bag on me perhaps since you are not offering anything of value a side line position would be more appropriate where we can agree to disagree. A lot of good information has already been shared.
Bob - AF6D
__________________
FF EMT IS-400 Certified
AF6D Amateur Extra Class K6ECS Trustee
So. Calif. Emergency Comm. Service Group
147.705(-) 167.9
User avatar
wavetar
Administrator
Posts: 7340
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 4:00 pm

Re: Motorola MSF 5000 squelch-tail duration

Post by wavetar »

Topic has run its course.
No trees were harmed in the posting of this message...however an extraordinarily large number of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.

Welcome to the /\/\achine.
Locked

Return to “Base Stations, Repeaters, General Infrastructure”