Same sysID Different Band control channels

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MOEtorola
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:00 pm
What radios do you own?: APX7000, All XTS and XTL

Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by MOEtorola »

Ok, say you have a system (same SYS id) that has 1site that is 800 a 2nd site that is 700 and a 3rd site that is vhf. Should you not be able to put the control channel of each of these sites in the control channels list in the CPS in trunking sytems? The only way I can get it to work is if I create 3 different Trunking system's in the CPS and only input that band of control channels. Using APX7000. Whats weird is my first trunking sytsem profile I created, has multiple band control channels but only works on the the 800 control channel. Same experiance with xts2500 but only 7/800 of course.
I have played with this on an xts2500 7/800 radio and have the same issue. I still have to create multiple Trunking systems one 700 and another 800. What am I missing , or is entering all of your control channels in one trunking system profile not possible.(But i can enter them) Remember we are talking one system ID, here. I am testing this using an aeroflex 2975.

Oh, and the radio does not say out of range, it appears that the radio is hearing the control channel, but will not register. On the trunking system profile with multiple band control channels in the cps. Radio works fine when a trunking system profile with single band control channels are entered.

Hopefully I didnt confuse anyone, kinda hard to explain. I plan on doing some more testing. I like trying my best to figure it out before calling Moto, kinda of a challange ya know, LOL.

One thing I havent tried was, in the other trunking system profiles mixing in some of the other band control channels and see if those profiles start having the same problems and only working on the 800 control channel.

The way i expect it to work. Is as soon as I change from one band to the other band on the monitor the radio will start going through its control channel list in that profile and find it because i have entered it. Shouldnt matter what band the control channel is in,,,,right??

A lot of typing for something like this, no one better post and say, you forgot to checkmark XXX, Ill be po'ed ( at myself) LOL

Any ideas before I call Moto?
akardam
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Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:53 am

Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by akardam »

You have to have the correct settings under the trunking system ASTRO25 Channel ID window, one for each band (or for OBT one for each bandplan) you're using.

An XTS5000 on a system with 700 and 800 sites, for example, would have two entries in the ASTRO25 Channel ID table, one for 800 and one for 700 (usually in that order though I s'pose it makes no difference).

Never programmed a true multi-band system into an APX (yet) but I would suspect it would be the same.
MOEtorola
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:00 pm
What radios do you own?: APX7000, All XTS and XTL

Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by MOEtorola »

[quote][/quote] An XTS5000 on a system with 700 and 800 sites, for example, would have two entries in the ASTRO25 Channel ID table, one for 800 and one for 700 (usually in that order though I s'pose it makes no difference).

This is exactly the way I suspect it should work, but it is not working for me on both APX and XTS.


The settings are correct in the channel ID window. I have checked and double checked.
akardam
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Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by akardam »

MOEtorola wrote:The settings are correct in the channel ID window. I have checked and double checked.
Well, since it's not working, they may not be. Paste your Channel ID settings here and we'll take a look.
MOEtorola
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:00 pm
What radios do you own?: APX7000, All XTS and XTL

Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by MOEtorola »

Astro25 Channel ID
Position /Identifier Enable /Ch. Type /Offset sign/ Offset / Space / Base
Channel ID 1 True FDMA - 45.000000 6.250 851.006250
Channel ID 2 True FDMA - 2.000000 6.250 155.006250
Channel ID 3 True FDMA + 45.000000 6.250 770.006250

Control Channels
851.006250 806.006250
155.006250 153.006250
770.006250 800.006250

This is the APX (in one trunking system profile) the XTS would be the same way except no VHF of course.
akardam
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Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by akardam »

Right off the bat, 700 isn't +45, it's +30...
MOEtorola
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:00 pm
What radios do you own?: APX7000, All XTS and XTL

Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by MOEtorola »

akardam wrote:Right off the bat, 700 isn't +45, it's +30...
It doesnt matter a long as the service monitor matches the channel ID setup or if it was infrastructure for that matter. And like I said earlier, 7/800 and/or VHF does work if entered seperatly in a trunking system profile. So it makes the channel ID problem moot. If it was wrong it would not work individually either.
If someone on here can take there 7/800 or apx radio and try this, and see what they come up with.

I will change it to +30 though. My bad. Thanks akardam
akardam
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Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by akardam »

MOEtorola wrote:It doesnt matter a long as the service monitor...
Ah, the magic words... so I'm guessing you haven't tried this configuration on actual infrastructure yet?

I know I've simulated P25 systems on my monitor in the past but it was only for 7/800 (and it worked), never tried OBT. I'd be happy to try and replicate the problem but at the moment mine is back home getting its innards all lined up. Maybe someone else here will chime in.

One thing I'm thinking tho... are you changing the site ID when you change the control channel frequency on your monitor?
MOEtorola
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:00 pm
What radios do you own?: APX7000, All XTS and XTL

Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by MOEtorola »

Ah, the magic words... so I'm guessing you haven't tried this configuration on actual infrastructure yet?
Lol, I wish we are only 800 right know. But that may be changing before to long. Reason for testing, be ahead of the curve , if ya know what i mean.

I know I've simulated P25 systems on my monitor in the past but it was only for 7/800 (and it worked), never tried OBT. I'd be happy to try and replicate the problem but at the moment mine is back home getting its innards all lined up. Maybe someone else here will chime in.
I am not currently using the OBT, just the channel ID. Sorry to hear that bout your monitor, hope the innards get lined up< :D

One thing I'm thinking tho... are you changing the site ID when you change the control channel frequency on your monitor?
Nope, stays the same.

I will do some more testing monday, have a few ideas to try, and may call M if im still having issues. Ill let ya know what I find out. Thanks for the suggestions.
akardam
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Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by akardam »

MOEtorola wrote:I am not currently using the OBT, just the channel ID.
OBT is Other Band Trunking, which is what VHF and UHF are...
MOEtorola wrote:
One thing I'm thinking tho... are you changing the site ID when you change the control channel frequency on your monitor?
Nope, stays the same.
I'm thinking that perhaps the radio is going, wait a minute, I'm on the same system, the control channel has changed, but I'm on the same site... wtf?

In a real world system, you wouldn't (couldn't) mix bands in the same site (whether standalone or simulcast). So, for example, site 1 would be an 800 standalone, site 2 a 700 simulcast, and site 3 a VHF simulcast. Try changing the site ID every time you change band of the control channels and see if the radio is happy with that.
MOEtorola
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:00 pm
What radios do you own?: APX7000, All XTS and XTL

Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by MOEtorola »

OBT is Other Band Trunking, which is what VHF and UHF are...
I know what OBT is! LOL



I'm thinking that perhaps the radio is going, wait a minute, I'm on the same system, the control channel has changed, but I'm on the same site... wtf?
The radio does not care what site it is at, as the monitor does not put out adjacent site information. Basically look at it like, the radio is listening to a control channel at a site, the control channel fails. Then the radio goes thru it programed CC frequencies. If it finds the correct sysID and the wacn it doesnt care what the band is, or site number. If it has the sysid and wacn it will trunk.
In a real world system, you wouldn't (couldn't) mix bands in the same site (whether standalone or simulcast). So, for example, site 1 would be an 800 standalone, site 2 a 700 simulcast, and site 3 a VHF simulcast. Try changing the site ID every time you change band of the control channels and see if the radio is happy with that.
I realize that u wouldnt be mixing in the same site(although thats an interesting topic) Again the radio does not care about the site ID. Oh and I did change site number in the monitor, no go. The only thing that you can program in a radio regarding sites is site alias's. So you can lock or unlock a site.

I do believe I may have found the problem though, Affiliation Holdoff is set to 255sec

Here is the description of affiliation holdoff,
(Selects the amount of time that the radio waits before connecting to a new Trunking site. This timer begins once the radio leaves the current Trunking site due to a control channel connection failure.)
255 is a long time to wait.

I'll mess adjust that and see what happens. Ill get back to ya ,,,Thanks again.
MOEtorola
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:00 pm
What radios do you own?: APX7000, All XTS and XTL

Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by MOEtorola »

I had mentioned at the first post
Oh, and the radio does not go out of range, it appears that the radio is hearing the control channel, but will not register.


To add to that.......

Both apx and XTS radios also show an RSSI of 0

? if the radios is showing RSSI of 0, y is it NOT showing OUT OF RANGE, LOL. and yes before someone asks I do have display and alert set.
MikeOxlong
Posts: 161
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 12:46 pm

Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by MikeOxlong »

Have you found anything official from Motorola saying that you can put a mixed frequency trunking system in the apx (besides 7/8)?

I'm wondering if the firmware or the zone controller even supports jumping bands like you're trying to do?

Have you heard of anybody else using this in the real world?

BTW, OTB usually refers to non-P25 systems on VHF/UHF.

The fact that you're mentioning the ASTRO25 Channel ID field leads me to believe you're programming up a P25 system?
MOEtorola
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:00 pm
What radios do you own?: APX7000, All XTS and XTL

Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by MOEtorola »

Have you found anything official from Motorola saying that you can put a mixed frequency trunking system in the apx (besides 7/8)?
Not sure what you mean. But if your refering to vhf or uhf trunking in the apx,, Yes
I had mentioned above that my APX will trunk on VHF, 700 and 800 with no problem.
I'm wondering if the firmware or the zone controller even supports jumping bands like you're trying to do?

Not sure what you mean by jumping bands. If you mean different rf bands at sites then, sure it does its P25 trunking.
Have you heard of anybody else using this in the real world?
Oh YES, one example state of Missouri was going to be VHF and 800. 800 for larger cities and VHF rural or moutainous areas. Hopefully it still happens, but due to budgets, well you know the rest of the story,,,LOL. Oh and there were going to use APX's.

BTW, OTB usually refers to non-P25 systems on VHF/UHF.
I think you mean OBT. Nope
The fact that you're mentioning the ASTRO25 Channel ID field leads me to believe you're programming up a P25 system?
Yes
MikeOxlong
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Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by MikeOxlong »

Yes, I understand the APX will do trunking on single bands without a problem. I have several vhf and uhf systems in my APX that trunk fine although they are entered as separate systems.

I'm questioning whether Motorola has ever said the APX will allow you to trunk a multiband system as one system instead of separate systems?

Do you have any proof that the current firmware supports the ability to roam between bands? It might be defined in the P25 protocol but do you have any proof that Motorola implemented it on the APX line?

So if Missouri hasn't built out this system as V/800, you don't have any real world examples?

Sorry, I did mean OBT. I think if you check the APX CPS, you'll find that OBT is greyed out since it's a Motorola term for their proprietary VHF/UHF trunking systems which are non-P25.

Since mixed band trunking systems are few and far between (I only know of the Smartzone Hydro Quebec system) and the APX is a newish product, I'm wondering whether what you are trying to implement is even possible at all at this point in time?
MOEtorola
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:00 pm
What radios do you own?: APX7000, All XTS and XTL

Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by MOEtorola »

I'm questioning whether Motorola has ever said the APX will allow you to trunk a multiband system as one system instead of separate systems?

Not sure, the reason for playing around.
Do you have any proof that the current firmware supports the ability to roam between bands? It might be defined in the P25 protocol but do you have any proof that Motorola implemented it on the APX line?

Nope
So if Missouri hasn't built out this system as V/800, you don't have any real world examples?
The infrastructure has nothing to do with it, we are talking subscriber end. There are systems that are implementing multiple band sites.


Since mixed band trunking systems are few and far between (I only know of the Smartzone Hydro Quebec system) and the APX is a newish product, I'm wondering whether what you are trying to implement is even possible at all at this point in time?
Not sure, but it would be nice if the APX did, and the XTS 7/800 for that matter. Especially 7/800 due to some metro areas having a hard time finding 800 to build out, and 700 being an option. You can see the benefits already. The reason I think it should be possible. As it would be combersom for a user to change the channel just to switch or roam from an 800 to 700 site with the same sysID.


Have you tested or tried to do this with your service monitor??
MOEtorola
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Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by MOEtorola »

Well, after a phone call to Motorola it appears to not be possible. Even he seemed a little stumped, as to y it will not work, as the radio will let you enter any control frequency combination in programing. It appears that what ever band is enters first into the channel ID list, is effectivley the band it will use. Wether 800, 700, VHF and I assume UHF as well.

Since this seems to be the case, this will force a user to change channels to select the TG associated with the programmed Band specific trunking sytem profile. In most typical sytem setups this is not a problem. As most agencies will carry one band or the other considering 800, uhf or vhf. But 700 is a different thing due to most manufactures inherently have 800 in them also. This means that the way I see it you would have to overlay both 700 and 800 system sites and sites are a lot of money.
What are your thoughts???? Has anyone tested this yet????
akardam
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Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by akardam »

Mixed 700/800 sites works for sure. I know because I've seen it work first hand.

Above, you wrote:
MOEtorola wrote:
I'm thinking that perhaps the radio is going, wait a minute, I'm on the same system, the control channel has changed, but I'm on the same site... wtf?
The radio does not care what site it is at, as the monitor does not put out adjacent site information. Basically look at it like, the radio is listening to a control channel at a site, the control channel fails. Then the radio goes thru it programed CC frequencies. If it finds the correct sysID and the wacn it doesnt care what the band is, or site number. If it has the sysid and wacn it will trunk.
I'm pretty sure your statement is incorrect. Under normal circumstances, if the radio is on a site and the site goes into site trunking (or failsoft, or fails completely), the first thing the radio is going to do is to run like hell for another site, depending on what adjacent site information has been broadcast, and also taking into account the CPS programmed site prefence information. If and only if it couldn't find any other control channels on any other sites would it then return to the original fail-state site (if it wasn't completely failed) and use site trunking or failsoft.

In the case of your service monitor, my experience to date has been with a GD R2670 and an IFR 2975. Have also played with an AFX 3920 but never tried P25 trunking on it. Either way, the monitors I've used (to the best of my knowledge) are only capable of simulating site trunking, they cannot simulate the full multi-site system. Either way, on the GD (and I suspect the IFR too but I don't recall 100%) when operating in P25 Trunk test mode you have to identify at minimum the WACN ID, System ID (Home ID), and Site ID. I still maintain that the issue you're experiencing is that you're not changing the Site ID when you wish to simulate a different band, but I could be wrong...

Can you give us more information on how your monitor is setup?

- What kind of monitor is it?
- What test mode are you using on the monitor?
- Assuming the monitor is all set up and ready to go, when you power on the radio, do you see the radio's affiliation attempts, either in the red TX light going in bursts, or on the monitor, or both?
- When the radio is working, does it display any message (such as site trunking)?
- When you're changing your monitor to a control channel of a different band, exactly what settings are you changing on the monitor and what values are you setting them to?
MOEtorola
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Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by MOEtorola »

I still maintain that the issue you're experiencing is that you're not changing the Site ID when you wish to simulate a different band, but I could be wrong...
I have simulated changing the site ID, no go. Although the CC does put out adjacent site id information. The only thing the radio uses this for is for site alias list. I am wondering what the RFSS status broadcast actually puts out as far as adjacent site information. As due to 7/ 800 using implicit mode, if the adjacent site information is only putting out the adjacint site channel number i could see the problem. Since 7 and 800 off course have seperate channel numbers. Guess I need to read up on the CC info on adjacent site info.

- What kind of monitor is it?
IFR2975
- What test mode are you using on the monitor?
Site simulation P25 trunked, and can du v,u,7and 800.
- Assuming the monitor is all set up and ready to go, when you power on the radio, do you see the radio's affiliation attempts, either in the red TX light going in bursts, or on the monitor, or both?
No it does not affiliate, but does not show out of range, it still appears to here the CC.
- When the radio is working, does it display any message (such as site trunking)?
No, although I can simulate site trunking.
- When you're changing your monitor to a control channel of a different band, exactly what settings are you changing on the monitor and what values are you setting them to?
By shutting down the CC, then selecting the new band and bringing the CC up in the new band.



Note: I tried using our actuale infrastructure to test this and got a completely differnt failure compared to the monitor..
The radio would register and aff 6 to 7 times or more randomly. I would be able to key up and zonewatch would show me accessing a VC, but no audio would pass. I reviewed the logs, but the system showed no known errors with the call.

Arkadam, do you have the capability to test this, curious if u get the same results, I could send you a CP if you would like?
MOEtorola
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Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by MOEtorola »

I am looking for a technician that has worked on or maintains a single zone system with both 7 and 800 sites.

I have some ?'s regarding CC's.

Please this topic.
akardam
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Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by akardam »

I was able to test the scenario on the monitor. For a single system, 3 entries in the channel ID table as described.

Test setup was a R2670B, Proj 25 Trnk, Dispatch Voice.

Procedurally, I was required to power cycle the subscriber at the beginning of each test, after hitting "start test" on the monitor (the monitor actually displays this instruction on the screen). During each test I was able to recieve a channel grant and pass audio from the subscriber to the monitor and from the monitor back to the subscriber.

If I didn't power cycle the subscriber after I changed the test setup band and channel information, I would have the same symptoms as you describe above (radio showed 0 RSSI but did NOT show out of range), so I will hazard a guess and say it's due to a limitation of the way that the monitors provide for or conduct the test.

Hope this helps.
MOEtorola
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:00 pm
What radios do you own?: APX7000, All XTS and XTL

Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by MOEtorola »

Great thanks, for testing this.

Although I did not ever recieve a channel grant after powering off and back on.
I did however get the same 0rssi as you.

Did you ever get the continuous registration to occour?

Did you play with changing the sites and going into site trunking?

It just boggles my mind y this wont work, your thoughts?

Thanks again.

This is what this site is about!!!!
akardam
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Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by akardam »

There does not seem to be a site trunking selection included in the test parameters. When I was thinking of the site trunking indication before I was thinking of what shows up on subscribers when we do tests on Type II, so I'm not sure if it would show when using your IFR. I have a coworker with one, I will inquire with him next time I see him.

Again, I was indicating I was showing 0 RSSI only when I was not following the testing procedure instructions. If by continuous registrations, you mean the radio working seamlessly without power cycling it between tests, then no, but I don't believe you're going to get that to work in a test on your monitor.

Changing the site ID did not seem to make a difference, or allow anything outside of the scope of the test.

There are a number of folk here on the board who are especially knowledgable about the IFR's. Perhaps one of them can chime in with further information on exactly how the tests are conducted from the IFR's point of view. I still think that you're going to find that the experience when using the monitor is going to be quite different than the experience with actual infrastructure.
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xmo
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Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by xmo »

I don't think the R2670 P25 trunking option has the smarts to adequately simulate this issue. The 2975 probably can with the right options.

MOEtorola, do you have all of these options enabled?

P25 Trunking Radio Test Option (2975OPT4) - for testing P25 trunked radio systems in the 800 MHz band

P25 Trunking VHF/UHF/700MHz Option (2975OPT14) - for testing P25 systems in various frequency bands of operation

P25 Secondary Control Channel Broadcast Message Option (2975OPT21) - allows the user to set up simulated control channels to verify how P25 radios switch over to secondary control channels

P25 Explicit Mode Operation Option (2975OPT22) - Allows the 2975 to use explicit messaging for VHF/UHF band operation.

P25 Explicit Adjacent Status Broadcast Channel Message (2975OPT24) - option allows the user to set up simulated control channels to verify how P25 radios switch over to secondary control channels (requires 2975OPT22)


For further information refer to the Aeroflex application notes:

"Understanding Advanced P25 Control Channel Functions"

"Understanding 800 MHz and VHF/UHF Implicit P25 Trunking Functions Using the IFR 2975"

Also, another document that you will want is Motorola 6871017P79-A ASTRO 25 Other Band Trunking (OBT) System Release 7.9
MOEtorola
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What radios do you own?: APX7000, All XTS and XTL

Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by MOEtorola »

My 2975 has
P25 Trunking
P25 OBT
MOEtorola
Posts: 49
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Re: Same sysID Different Band control channels

Post by MOEtorola »

After not having time to mess with this issue, I had a little time and figured it out. The Channel ID's in the monitor and the radio MUST match exactly. It works perfectly now. Using an APX I can can switch the monitor from 800 to 700 or VHF and the radio imediatly switches and reg., aff. and PTT. As if i'm roaming from site to site that are on different bands. The site lock and site switch also work too, cool. Also used an XTS5000 7/800 same great result. After stumbling across (adding a 800, 700, UHF and/or VHF P25 site in the Zone Database) in my system documentation, and it was explaining setting up channel id's it hit me like a ton of bricks. Usually it is the simple thing that are overlooked,,,LOL Thanks for everyones help.
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