Is my XTS5000 a paper weight

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n9upc
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Is my XTS5000 a paper weight

Post by n9upc »

Greetings,

I purchased the radio with some other workers to use as a scanner since at the time no 9600 buad radios were not out yet. The reason we purchased the radio was largely based that the ambulance service we respond for went to 9600 baud 800 Mhz while we stay on VHF and we wanted to hear when they were en-route, how far away, delays, etc... They monitor us so we thought it would be nice to monitor them.

The main person in charge of ID's had no problem with issuing us an ID and setting it up so that we would just be able to use it as a monitor, or talk only on the mutal aid freqs which are cross-link/banded over.

Well the radio board did a random ID audit and saw that there were ID's on the system which were not in the master list. This was our ID's in addition to other departments that did the same thing. (In total there were 19 ID's). It turns out that they killed all the radios with the ID's that were not in the list.

So we came on duty and turned on the radio. It acted like it was turning on when the screen lighted up but then we heard a beep and boom nothing then happened.
We thought the battery was dead or something so we tried another battery and nothing happened once again. We gave the person in charge of ID's a call and he filled us in about the ID audit and killing thing that was listed above here.

He suggested that we try talking to the head of the radio board and explaining to them the actions, our reasoning, and how we never did anything to hurt or want to hurt the system.

They said we went about it the wrong way and that is why they did what they did and stand behind it. So we thoguht what are we going to do with this radio?? So we contacted a friend with a motorola shop to see if we could get the radio un-killed, un-stunded, etc... He advised that he was not sure what we could do but to go back and ask the board to un-kill the radio.

So back to the board we went and asked for them to un-kill the radio and there answer was a big fat NO. Reason - if we got an ID once before and did what we did we might do it again if they un-kill the radio. If we would like we can purchase or rent a radio from them and pay a monthly fee for an ID and they will tell us what we can and can not have in the radios for talkgroups.

I know we went about it the wrong way but we did not do anything wrong by transmitting on talkgroups we were not suppose to, we just wanted it for listening purposes. Since then we have purchased a pro96 and are having the fun (yeah right) with it and are using that for scanning.
The person that issued us the ID's has now been removed from that position so he can not help us un-kill the radio. (I am glad that he did not get fired he was just trying to help us and he did not issue ID's to people who did not have a vaild reason for them. Heck he had at least three requests each week for a radio ID but never issued them to people who could not benefit from them.)

So what can we do?? The ideal all of us who chipped in (four of us) is to try and convert it over to VHF for us to use if it is possible. I do not know as I am not up on digital at all, but we thought it might be possible since you could do it with the MTX in the 800 to VHF set-up.

But what can we do???
" ah the fatman made a funny!" - Stewie from the family guy.

I went to the doctor and all he did was just suck blood. Never go to Dr Acula - M. Hedberg
Scott1563
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Post by Scott1563 »

Try cloning a file from another XTS5000 that is not inhibited and that should work. I have seen it work.
RKG
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Post by RKG »

Not to precipitate a fight, but:

IF the person who issued you the ID had the apparent authority to do so, and

IF whomever programmed the radio had legitimate access to the syskey file,

THEN the system operator had no legal right to damage your property. The reason is that, while the system operator may have disapproved of what his own person did after the fact, you, as an outsider of that organization, had the right to rely on what that person did and, in particular, on the authorization that person gave you to program the radio and listen to the traffic. What the system operator should have done was to tell you to unprogram the radio, and that it would be radio-inhibited if not unprogrammed by X date.

A lawyer's letter may be in order.

If you can satisfy the "IF"s.
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n9upc
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Post by n9upc »

Sadly the person who issued the ID's had the right to do so with aprroval of the radio board only. We did not go the right way with paperwork so this is how we got into a jam. But, sadly I can not see spending the money they were charging on a radio or the rental fee for one, in addition to the rental fee for the ID.
If we would have done it that way then yes we would not be in this end result.
In addition the person who programmed this radio was the same person who issued the ID's so we are kind of jammed up there to. We made some bad choices in the effort to save some re-occuring costs in the long run, but it appears our costs caught up with us all at once.

If I did not mention it before the ID after audit was wiped from the system and will not be re-issued for awhile so sadly dispatch can not rewake the radio (am I using the right terms????). The system was one of the newer 800 Mhz digital trunked 9600 baud systems.
As for the motorola option I will check with that later today in the efforts to see if the radio will be able to be unstunned/un-killed/etc...

After posting my first post we had two of the guys who went in on this get really upset at the whole deal so my partner and I had to pay them there halves to opt out of the deal. As far as my partner and I go we would like to try and either make it a VHF portable or try to get rid of it to get a VHF portable.



So to ask another question if I purchase a vocon board for an XTS5000 VHF, can I remove the XTS5000 800 Mhz board and then reprogram it as a VHF???? Is it that simple or is there more involved????
" ah the fatman made a funny!" - Stewie from the family guy.

I went to the doctor and all he did was just suck blood. Never go to Dr Acula - M. Hedberg
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The Pager Geek
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Post by The Pager Geek »

Nothing can be done to the XTS2500 / XTS5000 / Astro Spectra + / XTL5000 at this time...

No "jamming", "Hacking", "tweaking", over-writing, twisting, turning..... bla bla bla... yet.

The way you buy one of the above mentioned radios, is how it stays.

tpg
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Post by Radiogeek97 »

I am not sure what the depot gets for a flat rate on one of these as we have not had to send one in yet, But i would caution you to make sure that the radio you send in to the depot is 100% legit or you may not get it back. Yes it is useless anyway but i just assume have it than have it taken.
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Post by RocketNJ »

n9upc wrote: So to ask another question if I purchase a vocon board for an XTS5000 VHF, can I remove the XTS5000 800 Mhz board and then reprogram it as a VHF???? Is it that simple or is there more involved????
The RF board CANNOT be reprogrammed to another band. The physical components are different.

Since the only two boards in the radio (aside from the display and keypad) are the vocon and rf boards. The vocon and RF boards would need to be replaced to band change it (not worth it).

I'd suggest reprogramming it to remove any trunked info and send it into the depot. As Radiogeek said, make sure it is legit and you have proof of purchase.

George
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Post by RKG »

Why don't you subscribe to their service, have them reprogram your radio (which will include un-inhibiting it), and then cancel the subscription at the first opportunity? This will probably cost less than repairing the radio, and it is no more of a dirty trick than what they did to you.
ASTROMODAT
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Post by ASTROMODAT »

Elgin will NOT unstun a radio without the proper written authorization, and it involves a lot more than a note from your Mom. You are probably screwed, at this point. Not sure what a stunned XTS5000 will bring on eBay, but it may not be too much more than what it's worth as a doorstop.

Why do you want a $5,000 radio to simply monitor radio traffic?! As you mentioned, you are not allowed to transmit.

IMHO, why not just use a Rat Shack PRO-96---it will work as well as the XTS5000, if not better, for your use and it will be a heck of a lot cheaper.

Larry
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n9upc
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Post by n9upc »

As my first post said we purchased this radio before the scanners for digital 9600 baud trunk came out. Of course we were also told by motorola that there were not going to be any scanners out soon for the 9600 baud systems.

We did have the ability to transmit on the crossband/cross patch talkgroups, but we also had talkgroups for monitor only.

As for the Motorola avenue, yep that is dead. We would have to have a letter from the agency who killed it as well as why and if the radio will be able to be unkilled and used legally. They in turn would then have to contact the sales ave that sold it and verify who they sold it to.

As for getting the radio un-stunned and on the system again we are not allowed to as they said we had a chance and we blew it. The radio board is now making it required that anyone who buys a radio to use on the system has to have the sales outlet contact the radio board for auth.

In addition the radio board said they have every right to have done what they did as we were an unauthorized user and they could have filed charges as we were in a hacker type status as we did not have permission.

I think it is actually coming down to the fact we bought the radio through a different outlet and not from them. The radio board sucks a$$ but hey they are the power house.

Well I guess we have a paper weight and maybe some day we will get it unstunned but I doubt that it will be anytime soon.

Thank you to all that gave advice or suggestions on the subject I have learned my lesson and an expensive one at that.
" ah the fatman made a funny!" - Stewie from the family guy.

I went to the doctor and all he did was just suck blood. Never go to Dr Acula - M. Hedberg
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jcobb
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Post by jcobb »

If someone were to buy the radio to use legitimately on a system, could it be "unstunned" by the system radio shop simply reprogramming in the new system?

That way, at least you have a chance to get a lot of your money back...


Jack
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Cam
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Post by Cam »

Are you an EMS group or what? If I understand this right, you are working with this EMS group that has a 800Mhz system and you got your own radio to work with that system.

Now someone with in that company/non-profit whatever you want to call them programed your radio and added it to there system. Later someone(group of people it would sound like) else desides that they don't want your radio in this system and instead of telling you and having you take the radio out of service, they kill it over the air. Am I right so far? What you need to do now is...rip those bitchs a new @s5h01e. It doesn't matter that the person inside their group did something that they shouldn't have, that's not your problem, it's theirs. You need to go about making them understand that.

Are you still working with them?

You seem to be out a very costly radio, and if I were you, I'd fight that crap. File a suit for damge (cost of radio, court and legal fees), even if they think they could win, I would bet that they would rather push a few buttons them go to court. Tell them that you don't want to have your radio on their system and will not try to get it on. I myself would tell that I will not longer be working with them.

Good Luck,
Cam
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Post by Cam »

jcobb wrote:If someone were to buy the radio to use legitimately on a system, could it be "unstunned" by the system radio shop simply reprogramming in the new system?

That way, at least you have a chance to get a lot of your money back...


Jack
No
Radiogeek97
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Post by Radiogeek97 »

I would agree completely with cam's suggestion. Although not knowing exactly what canadian law is, I would assume that you are ok. The gentleman that programmed your radio was "acting as an agent" of the company when he programmed your unit, if you in good faith thought he was not doing somthing unauthorized i cant see how a judge would rule against you. Now what you have to ask yourself is will filing a lawsuit screw your freind over any more, he has already been relocated but will this bring more undue attension to him. Another thing you may want to think about is if you go to court and you are asked if you atually own the radio can you come up with a legit recipt for it? If you are certain on these two points i would DAM CERTAIN make these A-hol%$ fix your stuff, they should of stunned it and then given you the option of having it de-programmed and given back. I mean if you do it a second time shame on you, i am sure they will audit again and they will catch unauthorized users so their argument of you jumping on their system again is a bunch of terd. Persue the matter.
Scott1563
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Post by Scott1563 »

I,m tell you guy I know for a fact that a radio that was turned off can be brought back to life. If you have a program cable and another 5k with the same or newer code plug and you clone the good radio to the turned of radio. I have seen it work.

Scott
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Post by markgrutz »

In the area that I live in, the radio techs frequently ramble on about usless crap on thier TG, however one afternoon an interisting bit of info came flying out of the speaker....

It seems that a patrol officer had reported her radio lost, thus kicking off the action of killing that radio. But what no-one had realaized was that the radio was turned into the radio shop by another user (still have no idea how that mix-up happend). Long story short the radio was cloned to a pre-set template, like all the others on the system, and it was alive again. It turns out that the techs had thought they sent the radio to depot to get fixed, but it had never in fact gone out.

So it sounds like from what I have heard, Scott is right about the good codeplug being blown into the dead radio. Our guys have a set bunch of templates that they will plug in the radio ID and press program. The radios are not read, only programmed from known good codeplugs.

Just some info I thought I'd pass along.

Mark
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wavetar
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Post by wavetar »

Yep, you can bring many radios back to life from an inhibit by dumping in a codeplug from a non-inhibited unit. I've done it myself for MCS2000 & Astro Spectra radios. I haven't tried an XTS5000, but it would likely work.

This WILL NOT WORK with newer radios such as CP/CM/PR/PM series. They will give you an error upon trying, even with cloning. I haven't tried it with HT/CDM series yet, but suspect them to be the same.

Todd
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well

Post by clavo »

Someone that has access to generating the proper MDC burst could save that in a .wav file and you could feed it into the radio on your end. I know MDC isn't that touchy because I've held the mic from one radio up to a computer speaker with MDC post and had a 3rd radio decode....

A complicated option, but not unrealistic.....

If they DO uninhibit your radio make sure you set up a receiver to your computer with decent auto-recording software. That way if this happens again you can just fix it yourself :)

-c
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DOA5K

Post by Microwave Mike »

Ihave cloned back a 5K before. I used a good code plug from another radio with the same features... Flash and host and DSP.

Good luck

mm
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calvat
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Post by calvat »

I've got the XTS5000 mode II alpha radio 6 months ago but still can't get it back live; finally I sold to my local collectors and up to now I still don't want to touch this series.

Good Luck
Thank+Regards,

Larry
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motor59
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Post by motor59 »

Does that last post mean that the radio has changed hands, the buyer couldn't revive it and re-sold it to a collector, and it's still dead?

I'm so confused!!
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Post by Nickdap »

Radiogeek97 wrote:I would agree completely with cam's suggestion. Although not knowing exactly what canadian law is, I would assume that you are ok. The gentleman that programmed your radio was "acting as an agent" of the company when he programmed your unit, if you in good faith thought he was not doing somthing unauthorized i cant see how a judge would rule against you. Now what you have to ask yourself is will filing a lawsuit screw your freind over any more, he has already been relocated but will this bring more undue attension to him. Another thing you may want to think about is if you go to court and you are asked if you atually own the radio can you come up with a legit recipt for it? If you are certain on these two points i would DAM CERTAIN make these A-hol%$ fix your stuff, they should of stunned it and then given you the option of having it de-programmed and given back. I mean if you do it a second time shame on you, i am sure they will audit again and they will catch unauthorized users so their argument of you jumping on their system again is a bunch of terd. Persue the matter.
Take it to small claims if all else on the tech side fails. Radiogeek is right, your friend was acting as an agent and what he was doing was pretty much within the relm of his duties as an agent. The Principal/ass hole is liable...take him!
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n9upc
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Post by n9upc »

I will try to clear up some confusion which I think is being made here:

1.) At the time I made this post I was working with one agency (medical response as first responders) and the ambulance company (private) that would respond went to the 800 digital system. The ambulance company was a big metro/sub ambulance service.

2.) When the ambulance company went 800 there was no correctly working 800 Mhz digital 9600 baud scanner as of yet. So some of us went in (5 in total counting myself) and purchased this portable at a really really good deal so we could monitor.

3.) The sales person told us what we would need to do to get it on the system such as ID's whatever.

4.) We went to the person in charge of ID's of the system and explained we purchased our own radio and what we wanted to do and why. This person replied that he thought it was a good ideal (for interop and some other answer of the year type crap) so without getting approval he issued us an ID on the subsystem which we would work off of and programmed our radio for us. (In turn we slipped him a jackson or two.)

5.) The radio board which is the governing body over the subsystem is suppose to have people apply for radio ID's, set-up them up, what talkgroups, etc... The reason is due to the high security that needs to be maintained these days cause of the world affairs. There quote "...due to the high security reasons and possible system leaks only authorized people can have radios that transmit and have system info in them."

6.) This guy who was the ID person issued about 18 other ID's set-up sort of like ours. He never really prevented the radios from transmitting, he somehow just made it beep all the while you were keyed up on that talkgroup. Well someone was on a call (not us someone else with a set-up like ours) and could not get out on there UHF radio but could on the 800 radio, keyed up and started talking. Thus started the whole snowball effect.

7.) The talkgroup this person came on filed a complaint with the radio board stating that the radio board promised secure digital communications with only authorized users on it and they did not and they were going to take the radioboard to court. "Digital 800 is suppose to be safer and secure. We had jammers before on our old system and we were told that this would not be a case on this system and someone else is talking on our channel (talkgroup)."

8.) Radio board swoops down and does a system audit finding out who did what where when and why. Find that there where 18 ID's on the system they had no record for and as to what talkgroups they were on. So they board contacted the PSAP's dispatch centers and had them send kill/stun commands to the ID's that were illegal. This was done for about two weeks to make sure they killed all of the radios. They then went and removed the ID's from the system and will not reuse them for at least another couple of years I was told.

9.) They almost fired the guy who did the programming for us but decided to keep him on in another avenue as he was good with the system knowledge. I think they moved him from programming to system infastructure maint. Regardless he can not come near a programming cable, software, etc.. for a portable or mobile on the system otherwise they said they will fire him and press charges as what he did could be considered a terroistic act for putting not auth people on the system.

10.) After the posts about sending it back to Motorola were made we did some checking and found that we would almost need an act of god to get it unstunned/unkilled. As a side note we also found out we got the radio at such a GREAT deal becuase it was a demounit so it yes does have a good flashcode DSP and everything else a digital radio needs but it was a take apart put back together to see what changes were made and if they worked.

11.) I have since moved on from that department and moved to a bigger and better VHF land department. I still keep in contact with my frined who both him and I have the ownership to the radio. There are more and more places who have XTS5000 cables and radios we should be able to clone from so I guess we might try to re-wake it up and try selling it or something. All I know is that day when we turned it on the display lit up with no words, we heard a bonk sounding noise and the portable seemed dead. As stated we tried different batteries other things etc.. but once again no luck and then we were told it was stunned/killed.

12.) No sense in trying to sue. We did not play by the rules in the sandbox and got kicked out, plus all the headache is not really worth it since we still do have some options left.

I guess if there was away to make it into a VHF (have to find out how nick does it) I wold make it into a VHF one for something I could use now. Good ole' conventional with MDC1200 and QCII decode. Does anybody know how to do that??
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Post by CTAMontrose »

n9upc wrote:(have to find out how nick does it)
oh my
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Post by n9upc »

Sorry I do not mean to make it a heated discussion about Nick. I was not aware he made a residence change at all.

I simply meant that I wish I knew or could know of someone that has the ability to or the knowledge to make an 800 XTS into a VHF XTS.

I know it is a vocon and rf swap out but that is about that. I am not very versed on the XTS series as more and more I am heading down the line of the Kenwoods.

But since this topic got a little more life blown back into it I thought I should try and explore the question yet again: How to make an XTS5K into a VHF XTS5K.

At least he gets three squares a day and is kept warm at night.
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Post by CTAMontrose »

as of right now, you cant.. as far as 5Ks go, "they are what they are"


i just learned that one myself, thankfully they werent MY radios or i would be a bit miffed.
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Post by RocketNJ »

To make an 800 MHz 5K into a VHF you need to swap the RF and display modules. Then the tricky part, find some way to have the vocon reflashed to VHF. As of now there is no way to do it in the field.

George
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Post by Zap »

Could the radio be reprogrammed to a different id, then an unkill command issued to the new id thereby fixing the problem?

I am guessing a serial number is not part of the unkill command as it wasn't required to kill it.

If those old id's are on the flagged list, perhaps reprogram to id's that are not and issue unkill to those new id's. If you knew of one user (friendly to your problem) and knew their radio id, leave their radio off and use that id long enough to unkill. Of course co-operation at the console is also required to send the command.

Could the radio be reprogrammed to a different sys id AND radio id, then taken to a area where a sympathetic sys administrator (and freind to the board) could issue that command?

Or does the unkill have to contain the ID's it was killed by???

ZAP
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Post by wavetar »

Zap wrote:Could the radio be reprogrammed to a different id, then an unkill command issued to the new id thereby fixing the problem?

I am guessing a serial number is not part of the unkill command as it wasn't required to kill it.

If those old id's are on the flagged list, perhaps reprogram to id's that are not and issue unkill to those new id's. If you knew of one user (friendly to your problem) and knew their radio id, leave their radio off and use that id long enough to unkill. Of course co-operation at the console is also required to send the command.

Could the radio be reprogrammed to a different sys id AND radio id, then taken to a area where a sympathetic sys administrator (and freind to the board) could issue that command?

Or does the unkill have to contain the ID's it was killed by???

ZAP
It's highly unlikely the system administrators will issue any 'unkill' command to a unit they didn't initially 'kill' in the first place. It wouldn't matter anyway, since reading the radio & changing parameters, then dumping it back in will NOT revive the radio. There is some sort of 'bit' set in the codeplug which remains & tells the radio it's inhibited. You must either dump in a clean archive of the 'pre-inhibited' codeplug, or clone from another identical clean radio/codeplug to revive it.

Todd
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K8TEK
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Post by K8TEK »

John, if someone breaks into your house, are you allowed to “kill” them? Of course not, you are legally allowed to us the least amount of force necessary to stop them...

The problem I have your whole dilemma is that an agent of the company granted you access to there radio system, you did not "hack" into it, you were granted access. There are other ways of stopping your radio from receiving other than killing it (killing a radio is used to protect stolen radios from functioning or being reprogrammed)... The radio board does not own your radio, however they damaged it to the point that you can no longer use it. They never issued you a notice that you are not authorized to use it on their system, and that is criminal...

Even if you didn't go through the correct channels, someone representing the radio board issued you the radio id, so if they have a problem with it, the radio board should go after him, as opposed to getting innocent people involved and damaging thousands of dollars worth of there equipment.

There are 18 other people that are unhappy with the radio board, if I were you, I would ask your friend who else he issued radio ids to and I would sue the radio board as a group... There is no reason they had to kill your radios, just simply deny them access to the system.
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Post by nbrooky »

When you turn this radio on after it has been locked does it do the "Self Test" or it just does not light up or make a sound at all?
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Post by 5-sides »

K8TEK wrote:John, if someone breaks into your house, are you allowed to “kill” them? Of course not, you are legally allowed to us the least amount of force necessary to stop them...

<snip>

There is no reason they had to kill your radios, just simply deny them access to the system.
Eggzakly. All they had do do was see that ID's 10001 thru 10018 were not authorized and delete those ID's. That would have prevented any "unauthorized" transmissions. What they did was to take the most drastic step they could, and damaged your property. "Killing" the radio should be reserved for known loss/theft of a legit radio. I mean, they had to know that you were issued an ID by someone at their end. Its not as if you hacked into the database and entered your own ID.
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Post by RocketNJ »

I've inhibited two unauthorized radios on our system. Haven't heard a peep from the owners of the radios.....

If people are stupid enough to have an unauthorized radio affiliate with the system then they deserve to have it put to sleep.
Hightower
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Post by Hightower »

RocketNJ wrote:I've inhibited two unauthorized radios on our system. Haven't heard a peep from the owners of the radios.....

If people are stupid enough to have an unauthorized radio affiliate with the system then they deserve to have it put to sleep.
and it takes way less than a second to stun a 5K once it's logged on to the system.
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N4DES
was KS4VT
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What radios do you own?: APX,XTS2500,XTL2500,XTL1500

Post by N4DES »

RocketNJ wrote:I've inhibited two unauthorized radios on our system. Haven't heard a peep from the owners of the radios.....

If people are stupid enough to have an unauthorized radio affiliate with the system then they deserve to have it put to sleep.
Ditto...I have a running excel spreadsheet with about 20+ id's on it that I have hit over the past few years. Sometimes I hear about it on other boards and have to sit back in amazement as to why someone would program onto a system illegally.

I feel no pity and have about another 10 in the inhibit list. Those will be snagged eventually.
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mr.syntrx
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Post by mr.syntrx »

A lot of system operators aren't nearly so vigilant - my state's SZ OL system has dozens of pirates, who sit on the network talking all night long on various talkgroups.
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N4DES
was KS4VT
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What radios do you own?: APX,XTS2500,XTL2500,XTL1500

Post by N4DES »

Amazing...sounds like they either run the system open and don't care to have any long term system activity reporting structure, or if they do noone looks at it.

Speaking of this it's time to review the rejection list. 8)
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mr.syntrx
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Post by mr.syntrx »

Yeah, the people running it are pretty slack.

700001 isn't even on the kill list. Pages from a legit radio to that RID get acknowledged, even :o
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DES-AJ
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Post by DES-AJ »

mr.syntrx wrote:Yeah, the people running it are pretty slack.

700001 isn't even on the kill list. Pages from a legit radio to that RID get acknowledged, even :o
And you know this how? :lol:
AES AND DES ARE NOT CCI's - YOU CAN EXPORT THEM IF YOU WANT - Wassenaar Arrangement
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