Anyone have or tried one of these latest Motorola brain farts?
I admit, its a slick idea! They've added extra security to both the FLASHkey for FLASHport upgrades and given us a little extra control of who can do what with our codeplugs once created!
Anyways.....are these being sold yet?
If so, whats the price of an iButton reader/adapter and iButton?
I'll brace myself for the answer!
iButton
Moderator: Queue Moderator
Starting next month, Motorola is supposed to begin shipping the new Advanced System Key [ASK]. Once a radio is programmed with the Advanced System Key, it can no longer be programmed with a regular key, period.
This will affect Astro Saber, XTS3000, Astro Spectra and Plus, XTS1500/2500/5000 and XTL5000 when programmed with their corresponding CPS.
The codeplug will even retain the serial number of the advanced key that programmed it.
The advanced key is a hardware based system using the Dallas / Maxim I-button technology.
It remains to be seen if you can take a radio that has been programmed with an advanced key and get past that by cloning a factory codeplug into it with DOS RSS. It's unlikely that process will ever work with CPS so that rules cloning out as a fix for the newer radios.
It is also unclear if the CPS will even read a radio programmed with an advanced key. Well, OK, it will read it, it probably just won't let you see what's in there.
Another thing that is not clear is whether the advanced key locks out all programming of the radio or just programming of the radio for the system that the advanced key programmed it for.
Once the advanced key gets delivered, many experiments will need to be done to get answers to these questions and more.
You will need three things to use this system. A Master Advanced System Key [which presumeably only the System Administrator can order through their authorized Motorola direct representative], the i-Button reader/writer [looks like a hard key or gender changer] and blank i-Buttons.
Once you have the Master key you can program and distribute Advanced Keys. You can create a key that is only good for one radio, or for a range of radios with unlimited access to CPS fields or just to particular fields, restrict editing of talkgroups, allow / restrict cloning - just about any control you can think of.
You can set the key to expire whenever you want - a day, a month, a year. When it expires - it erases the key authorization. The key only functions in the reader - it cannot be copied to the PC hard drive or anywhere else.
A user who receives a key would only need the reader widget. In other words - let's say a dealer sells a radio on a public safety system. Today the issue is that the System Administrator may not want that particular dealer to have unlimited programming ability as they now would with the old key technology. Maybe they aren't well trained or aren't completely trustworthy.
With the new key - the System Administrator can set them up a button to program the radio they sold - period - nothing else - and only this week - not next year or forever after.
Obviously - a dramatic change in the management of systems....
This will affect Astro Saber, XTS3000, Astro Spectra and Plus, XTS1500/2500/5000 and XTL5000 when programmed with their corresponding CPS.
The codeplug will even retain the serial number of the advanced key that programmed it.
The advanced key is a hardware based system using the Dallas / Maxim I-button technology.
It remains to be seen if you can take a radio that has been programmed with an advanced key and get past that by cloning a factory codeplug into it with DOS RSS. It's unlikely that process will ever work with CPS so that rules cloning out as a fix for the newer radios.
It is also unclear if the CPS will even read a radio programmed with an advanced key. Well, OK, it will read it, it probably just won't let you see what's in there.
Another thing that is not clear is whether the advanced key locks out all programming of the radio or just programming of the radio for the system that the advanced key programmed it for.
Once the advanced key gets delivered, many experiments will need to be done to get answers to these questions and more.
You will need three things to use this system. A Master Advanced System Key [which presumeably only the System Administrator can order through their authorized Motorola direct representative], the i-Button reader/writer [looks like a hard key or gender changer] and blank i-Buttons.
Once you have the Master key you can program and distribute Advanced Keys. You can create a key that is only good for one radio, or for a range of radios with unlimited access to CPS fields or just to particular fields, restrict editing of talkgroups, allow / restrict cloning - just about any control you can think of.
You can set the key to expire whenever you want - a day, a month, a year. When it expires - it erases the key authorization. The key only functions in the reader - it cannot be copied to the PC hard drive or anywhere else.
A user who receives a key would only need the reader widget. In other words - let's say a dealer sells a radio on a public safety system. Today the issue is that the System Administrator may not want that particular dealer to have unlimited programming ability as they now would with the old key technology. Maybe they aren't well trained or aren't completely trustworthy.
With the new key - the System Administrator can set them up a button to program the radio they sold - period - nothing else - and only this week - not next year or forever after.
Obviously - a dramatic change in the management of systems....
The i-Button Advanced System Key is now set up in the Motorola system and can be ordered.
To get started you must have the Master Advanced Key. To order this kit you must have the proper licensing agreements signed and on file at Motorola AND you must be the designated system administrator entity.
The kit comes with the master key, five blank i-Buttons and five readers. You can order additional i-Buttons and/or readers either from Motorola or direct from Dallas Semiconductor.
Once you have the Master key, you can format blank i-Buttons and set them up as Advanced System Keys with whatever restrictions and expiration you choose.
The simple act of programming a radio when you have an Advanced System Key loaded in the CPS WILL write protect the radio so that Advanced Keys will be necessary for that radio forever after. The CPS does present a warning to that effect when you initiate the programming process.
You might think that you could fix that if you had an archive file from that radio saved on disk from before the radio was write protected - but the CPS won't put that back in the radio.
Bottom Line - from here forward - be careful buying a used XTS5000/XTL5000/Astro Spectra Plus. IF it was programmed with an Advanced Key - YOU will also have to have one to change anything in the radio - even just a conventional channel.
One good thing - it does not have to be the SAME Advanced Key that the radio was initially programmed with - or even one for the same system [i.e. you could add a second system to a radio with a different key but couldn't alter the info for the system you don't have the key for.]
To get started you must have the Master Advanced Key. To order this kit you must have the proper licensing agreements signed and on file at Motorola AND you must be the designated system administrator entity.
The kit comes with the master key, five blank i-Buttons and five readers. You can order additional i-Buttons and/or readers either from Motorola or direct from Dallas Semiconductor.
Once you have the Master key, you can format blank i-Buttons and set them up as Advanced System Keys with whatever restrictions and expiration you choose.
The simple act of programming a radio when you have an Advanced System Key loaded in the CPS WILL write protect the radio so that Advanced Keys will be necessary for that radio forever after. The CPS does present a warning to that effect when you initiate the programming process.
You might think that you could fix that if you had an archive file from that radio saved on disk from before the radio was write protected - but the CPS won't put that back in the radio.
Bottom Line - from here forward - be careful buying a used XTS5000/XTL5000/Astro Spectra Plus. IF it was programmed with an Advanced Key - YOU will also have to have one to change anything in the radio - even just a conventional channel.
One good thing - it does not have to be the SAME Advanced Key that the radio was initially programmed with - or even one for the same system [i.e. you could add a second system to a radio with a different key but couldn't alter the info for the system you don't have the key for.]
Not quite. The Dallas Semiconductor 1-wire protocol is not RF based.mtr12222 wrote:I buttons look like little button cell batteries that work I believe on an RFID tag principle.
The reader either supplies power or not to the device - the pattern of on/off is used to encode data to the device.
The device has a diode/cap combination to store operating power during the "off" bits.
When the device is to talk, the reader supplies power. The device shorts the line, or not, to signal ones and zeros.
The most simple devices are simple a laser programmed 64 bit ROM that is guaranteed unique by Dallas Semi. Other devices can have NVRAM, EEPROM, Flash, or even a small crypto engine.
This is my opinion, not Aeroflex's.
I WILL NOT give you proprietary information. I make too much money to jeopardize my job.
I AM NOT the Service department: You want official info, manuals, service info, parts, calibration, etc., contact Aeroflex directly, please.
I WILL NOT give you proprietary information. I make too much money to jeopardize my job.
I AM NOT the Service department: You want official info, manuals, service info, parts, calibration, etc., contact Aeroflex directly, please.
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KennerFire
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2001 4:00 pm
Training
I am not sure who is or isn't using this new feature, but I do think there are many systems or dealers that have yet to be trained on the use and therefore haven't began using it for fear they might do something to prevent themselves from being able to access the units at a later point. I think as the training moves forward and as more system begin using this you will begin to see this showing up on the ebay radios. If a hobbyist, for lack of a better term, gets one he is basically screwed. He will find for all intents and purposes he has a brick. However, if it is a ligit radio perhaps he can send it to the depot and get it reset to original factory configuration with a factory code plug. I would think that when the Depot got this radio they would contact the system that it came from and check to see if it is missing, if it was stolen regardless of whether the guy you got it from stole it or not you probably won't get it back even if it wasn't reported stolen previously.
"Once man has hunted armed man and liked it there is no other hunt like it."
This technology is out there - it is being delivered - it does not cost much so there is no deterent to its use - System Administrators ARE using it and others have announced their intent to do so.
chiefhal3 has correctly realized the impact of this technology on the purchase of used radios.
A system owner has much better protection of his property than ever before. With the Astro25 series of radios there is no DOS RSS - no escaped LAB - no 'field' trick that can circumvent these new built in protections.
These radios can be password protected - without the password - CPS will not even read the radio - no more stealing the local PD codeplug while your cop buddy is distracted by a plate of donuts.
If one of these radios is inhibited - CPS will NOT re-enable it - no way - no how.
If the radio has been written with an Advanced System Key - CPS will not write to it unless you have the Advanced System Key - not just the trunking information - you can't even add or change the conventional information. Period.
If you plan to buy a used Astro25 radio - BE SURE TO ASK THE RIGHT QUESTIONS.
chiefhal3 has correctly realized the impact of this technology on the purchase of used radios.
A system owner has much better protection of his property than ever before. With the Astro25 series of radios there is no DOS RSS - no escaped LAB - no 'field' trick that can circumvent these new built in protections.
These radios can be password protected - without the password - CPS will not even read the radio - no more stealing the local PD codeplug while your cop buddy is distracted by a plate of donuts.
If one of these radios is inhibited - CPS will NOT re-enable it - no way - no how.
If the radio has been written with an Advanced System Key - CPS will not write to it unless you have the Advanced System Key - not just the trunking information - you can't even add or change the conventional information. Period.
If you plan to buy a used Astro25 radio - BE SURE TO ASK THE RIGHT QUESTIONS.
DVN4049 is the Motorola part number for replacement iButtons - quantity 5
DVN4050 is the Motorola part number for the parallel port adapters [readers] - quantity 5
You probably will not see these part numbers on MOL unless your account rep has contacted Schaumburg to get them set up for you. You don't need to order them from Motorola. You can order the generic parts direct. The button part number is DS1994L. The reader is DS1410E.
http://www.ibutton.com
There is another part number for the "starter" kit that contains the "Master" system key plus five each iButtons and readers. The Master key must be set up by the Motorola System Support Center and can only be ordered by a System Administrator. Motorola will verify with your account rep that you are indeed the correct entity to be able to order this item.
DVN4050 is the Motorola part number for the parallel port adapters [readers] - quantity 5
You probably will not see these part numbers on MOL unless your account rep has contacted Schaumburg to get them set up for you. You don't need to order them from Motorola. You can order the generic parts direct. The button part number is DS1994L. The reader is DS1410E.
http://www.ibutton.com
There is another part number for the "starter" kit that contains the "Master" system key plus five each iButtons and readers. The Master key must be set up by the Motorola System Support Center and can only be ordered by a System Administrator. Motorola will verify with your account rep that you are indeed the correct entity to be able to order this item.
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radio_rob_nj
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 12:28 am
- What radios do you own?: Motorola, ICOM, Harris, Tait
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radio_rob_nj
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 12:28 am
- What radios do you own?: Motorola, ICOM, Harris, Tait
Well, I didn't know if the CPS only looks for a unique serial number, or if the i-button needs to have certain propriatary programming in it. Above, it says that it just needs an i-button, but not necessarialy the i-button that was used before. However, judging from your response, it needs to be formatted somehow, presumably using the master ASK. In short, that you for helping me answer my own question.
As Carlos Mencia would say,
DEE-DEE-DEE
As Carlos Mencia would say,
DEE-DEE-DEE
I'll see your 4.1 and raise you a 7.13
i wasn't trying to make you feel silly or anything merely to sit back and look at your question.
You answered it well.
Now these days the Ibutton is used for ASK and for flash upgrades.
With the flash upgrade the ibutton needs to know the tmodel number, the original flash code, the new flash code (if different) and the number of upgrades/refreshes purchased.
with ASK there is timers and all sorts of stuff programmable for contractors that may be employed for a major reprogramming.
The scenario is you have to reprogram 5000 radios. You need help.
You contact the local radio shop and give them an ASK button valid for 1 month.
The programming takes place and after a month the key is useless.
How would CPS know your intentions?
Thgis is assuming one flavour of radio.
That is why you have to program the ibuttons so the various cps software
knows what it is doing.
You answered it well.
Now these days the Ibutton is used for ASK and for flash upgrades.
With the flash upgrade the ibutton needs to know the tmodel number, the original flash code, the new flash code (if different) and the number of upgrades/refreshes purchased.
with ASK there is timers and all sorts of stuff programmable for contractors that may be employed for a major reprogramming.
The scenario is you have to reprogram 5000 radios. You need help.
You contact the local radio shop and give them an ASK button valid for 1 month.
The programming takes place and after a month the key is useless.
How would CPS know your intentions?
Thgis is assuming one flavour of radio.
That is why you have to program the ibuttons so the various cps software
knows what it is doing.
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radio_rob_nj
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 12:28 am
- What radios do you own?: Motorola, ICOM, Harris, Tait
Thank you. Sometimes people give smart a$$ abswers here, and sometimes they don't elaborate. Thank you very much for answering my entire question and even providing a scenerio. Now I understand the concept and practicality of the i-Buttons.
That being said, I have two radios that I need to program that had previously been programmed using an i-button. Appearantly, these XTS-5000s have been tossed around e-bay for awhile, presumably because no one could program them.
If I buy a blank i-Button, can someone here either program the i-button for me or direct me to someone who can. It would be fine if the person set the i-Button to only program the two serial numbers of the radios that I have.
Thanks for any and all help!
That being said, I have two radios that I need to program that had previously been programmed using an i-button. Appearantly, these XTS-5000s have been tossed around e-bay for awhile, presumably because no one could program them.
If I buy a blank i-Button, can someone here either program the i-button for me or direct me to someone who can. It would be fine if the person set the i-Button to only program the two serial numbers of the radios that I have.
Thanks for any and all help!
I'll see your 4.1 and raise you a 7.13
Not that easy.
1)You need to find the master i-button for those radios.
2)So what you need is to find out where they came from.
3)Are the stolen
Now will the system manager whose system they were on be helpful?
This is what ASK is all about.
Buying trunked radios over ebay may not be a good idea in a year or so unbless they are old models .
1)You need to find the master i-button for those radios.
2)So what you need is to find out where they came from.
3)Are the stolen
Now will the system manager whose system they were on be helpful?
This is what ASK is all about.
Buying trunked radios over ebay may not be a good idea in a year or so unbless they are old models .
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radio_rob_nj
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 12:28 am
- What radios do you own?: Motorola, ICOM, Harris, Tait
But I thought that you could program a radio with any i-button, not necessarily the one that was used before. If that is true, then all I would need is a valid i-button, even if it is from another system, right? So I need to find someone that has a master ASK that is willing to program an i-button for me. I don't know where the radios came from originally, and I don;t know if I really want to.
Thanks for all your info and help so far!
Thanks for all your info and help so far!
I'll see your 4.1 and raise you a 7.13
No, because that would defeat the whole purpose of the system owner using iButtons.radio_rob_nj wrote:But I thought that you could program a radio with any i-button, not necessarily the one that was used before. If that is true, then all I would need is a valid i-button, even if it is from another system, right?
Think of an iButton as a kind of password, accepting any old iButton is like a your email provider accepting any old password to let people into your account.
You NEED an iButton that specifically corresponds to the system those radios are programmed on. Nothing else will work.
If they're legitimate surplus radios, in my experience, someone will usually deprogram them first, if only to stop them popping back up on the system, OPSEC issues notwithstanding. Probably best to stay away from them.radio_rob_nj wrote:So I need to find someone that has a master ASK that is willing to program an i-button for me. I don't know where the radios came from originally, and I don;t know if I really want to.
Thanks for all your info and help so far!
ASK serves 2 purposes.
1) it stops unwanted guests on the trunking system
2) It makes stolen/lost radios usless except on that system.
As I said XTS/XTL and whatever else will become only worth buying in conventional second hand. Bring that laptop to the hamfest so you can read the radio and check if it has an ASK in it.
1) it stops unwanted guests on the trunking system
2) It makes stolen/lost radios usless except on that system.
As I said XTS/XTL and whatever else will become only worth buying in conventional second hand. Bring that laptop to the hamfest so you can read the radio and check if it has an ASK in it.
http://www.ibutton.com
an Ibutton is like a dongle.
The old flash upgrades used a dongle whuilst the new ones use a dongle that contains an ibutton.
The ibutton contains midware(in between firmware and software) and can have counters, timers and all sorts of stuff.
an Ibutton is like a dongle.
The old flash upgrades used a dongle whuilst the new ones use a dongle that contains an ibutton.
The ibutton contains midware(in between firmware and software) and can have counters, timers and all sorts of stuff.
Re: iButton
How would those of you who buy radios from ebay, feel about keeping a database here of ebayers (or other places like ebay) selling ASK PROGRAMMED enabled (or rather disabled) radios?
Last edited by Zap on Wed May 30, 2007 4:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: iButton
I think you need to drop the word ibutton and just call it ASK programmed as ibutton is also a flash tool.
Re:
Hmmm, I wonder how it tracks the timing?Bruce1807 wrote: with ASK there is timers and all sorts of stuff programmable for contractors that may be employed for a major reprogramming.
The scenario is you have to reprogram 5000 radios. You need help.
You contact the local radio shop and give them an ASK button valid for 1 month.
The programming takes place and after a month the key is useless.
No trees were harmed in the posting of this message...however an extraordinarily large number of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.
Welcome to the /\/\achine.
Welcome to the /\/\achine.
Re: iButton
When you create an ASK iButton using the Master ASK, your first task is to initialize the blank iButton device. [You can buy the blank buttons from Motorola or directly from the manufacturer.]
When you initialize it for use as an ASK, you set the expiration date for the button. Once that date is initialized into the button, it can't be changed. When the button's clock says that date has passed - pffft - it's dead. Throw it away. It can't be reformatted or reused. That's not a real problem since the buttons themselves are cheap - on the order of 10 bucks.
When you initialize it for use as an ASK, you set the expiration date for the button. Once that date is initialized into the button, it can't be changed. When the button's clock says that date has passed - pffft - it's dead. Throw it away. It can't be reformatted or reused. That's not a real problem since the buttons themselves are cheap - on the order of 10 bucks.
Re: Re:
The iButton has an onboard real time clock and battery, which is good for 10 years or so.wavetar wrote:Hmmm, I wonder how it tracks the timing?Bruce1807 wrote: with ASK there is timers and all sorts of stuff programmable for contractors that may be employed for a major reprogramming.
The scenario is you have to reprogram 5000 radios. You need help.
You contact the local radio shop and give them an ASK button valid for 1 month.
The programming takes place and after a month the key is useless.