Dual Astro mobile\single control head

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willbartlett
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Dual Astro mobile\single control head

Post by willbartlett »

OK, So I'm going through a few service manuals for astro mobiles, and I come across a dual reciever setup using a w9 head, a specialized y-cable, and some other interconnects. There are some minor modifications to the command board, but they all seem to be power on/off related. htere is no mention of specialized host versions. For the most part, the rest of the setup seems pretty stock.

The system is meant to offer multiple talkgroup recieve for 800 systems, but I an wondering about the possibility of multiple radio transmit with other bands, namely vhf and uhf.

The control cable signal routing looks pretty much identical to what Natedog and I were messing around with a year or so ago for a dual radio single a9 head setup for the analog spectras. It would operate independent of an SIU. That setup worked except for exciter bleedthrough, which we never explored much, but it's still stewing in the back of my mind. it offered the option, on the surface, of v+u, v+800 non-trunked (ie. a5, not b5 or c5), v+900 non-trunked, u+800 non-trunked, etc. definitely hamsexy!

Has anyone ever worked with this setup or anything like it. I'm not real concerned about the SIU based dual radio thingy, it looks to be, as described on the batlabs astro mobile page, "not a cheap option".

Any thoughts?

Will
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XTL5000 dual radio setup

Post by radioinstl »

they now make a dual raido setup for the XTL5000 (host 6.5 or greater). it uses a W3 head (PMN1035A) and a speacial cable (3064426H01). Both radios must have option G474AB. This is not a field FLASH upgradeable option and must be done at factory. It can be turned on and off by software (CPS 5.00.00 or newer) You can also use a siren with this setup.
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alex
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Post by alex »

I have the cable, as does PJ.

I haven't gotten a dual radio setup going yet - but will soon, and of course, will post my results.

-Alex
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Pj
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Post by Pj »

The intent is what you see...two 800 Astro Spectra's. The actual setup uses a normal drawer for radio 1, and a modified drawer for #2. The setup uses 1 modified power cable (two power connectors), the Y cable. The command board has a couple of modifications for a lower current draw when they are turned off, and an antenna swtich and splitter so that you only need 1 antenna.

The catch is, the 2nd radio isn't suppose to tranmit at all, as its designed (in the setup instructions) to monitor 1 talkgroup only.

However, in looking at the cable wiring, RSS/CPS, and how its worded, it appears that you can actually use two normal radios, reprogram them and use them X9000 style.

Until I get my 2nd radio back, I cannot confirm this. However, programming a radio as the 2nd radio it will still TX/RX normally. The problem is, they do not bring out the PTT and MIC lines out to the 2nd radio. Those are the only lines not connected, the rest appear to be hooked up the same way as the X9000.

The 2nd concern is, if those lines are brought out to the 2nd radio, will pressing the PTT cause both to xmit? I think not, but ya never know.

Everything that I have read seems to point that it will work X9000 style, as the programming tips just seem to say "don't program it to xmit"....which brings up my next question... If the 2nd radio isn't suppose to XMIT, how does it monitor a TRS in the offical setup (SmartZone)? The programming sheet tells you not to use the RID of the primary drawer so....
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Post by Chrisjz »

That's a shame they never came up with a better way to use 2 spectra chassis with one head. Does the new XTL-5000 give you the ability to select and transmit on either radio? Totally bogus you need to order the XTL with the option for dual radios on one head, you would think it would come with that as a software option. M/A-Com has had the ability to use 2 Orion radios on one head with all of the features for many years and it's a stock option selectable in the software. It's also included with the new M-7100 and Jaguar 725-M. You can even choose how you want the receive audio from each radio treated, for example; summed (both radios audio at the speaker) or selected (only the radio currently selected has audio at the speaker). I have several of them set up both ways and you can use either a scan or system head too. Maybe Motorola should follow M/A-Com on this one.
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Post by Pj »

The actual controls of each radio are independant of each other. The only thing that M didn't carry over is the ability to mute the unselected radio.

In the real world, dual radio setups are not as common as you may think. Most departmets will just buy two radios. In day/day and high stress situations, its easier to train someone to pick up the mic, select the other radio, hope that its on the right channel and talk, vs just picking up the "hot" mic.

Most dual radios are useful in command situatations, 3 letter agencies or people who need maximum "interop" with litte space as possible.

For most of us, its just cool (and takes up less space!)
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Post by Bob »

I'm partial to the way Kenwood and Vertex handle a dual-radio setup. You program and operate as one radio - no switching between the two radios.

In my case, I have a Kenwood 630/830 setup. I have all of my frequently used channels (both lowband AND UHF) in the same zone. You can even have a mix of channels in the scan list. Because of the way the drawers integrate, the operator doesn't know the difference.
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Post by JAYMZ »

Pj wrote:The 2nd concern is, if those lines are brought out to the 2nd radio, will pressing the PTT cause both to xmit? I think not, but ya never know.
Most likely not. If those lines for the microphone are not connected the radio has no way of knowing that it is supposed to transmit. Unless predefined as a routine within the radio, like acknowledging an MDC Call, or something similar. Kind of like the Pin 20-22 jumper idea to power the radio. Radio is on.. but it is on the home channel and has no way of knowing if it should do anything else.
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alex
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Post by alex »

JAYMZ wrote:
Pj wrote:The 2nd concern is, if those lines are brought out to the 2nd radio, will pressing the PTT cause both to xmit? I think not, but ya never know.
Most likely not. If those lines for the microphone are not connected the radio has no way of knowing that it is supposed to transmit. Unless predefined as a routine within the radio, like acknowledging an MDC Call, or something similar. Kind of like the Pin 20-22 jumper idea to power the radio. Radio is on.. but it is on the home channel and has no way of knowing if it should do anything else.
It will be interesting to see. I think that the "key radio" is a Serial command, and not a "hard wired" functino. Definatly something to test. If I had to wager anything would happen - it would key the selected radio, but you would not get any audio out of the second one due to there not being a audio path through the cable for it.

-Alex
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Post by willbartlett »

This is what we did with the analog spectra. The tx command is indeed a serial command, and having the mic audio connected did not present a problem, I doubt it will in the astro series. I have another astro radio coming this week, I'll spend some time on it next week and report all the findings here.
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Post by /\/\y 2 cents »

if the radio uses a serial command to key the PTT, must one get a way to monitor that line (serial monitor/generator) and decode the command? Is the command expressed as ASCII charachter? I think I am having this issue with trying to interface something into the jedi accessory connector. How does one generate the serial whatever in order to key the PTT
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Post by willbartlett »

Well, In the dual radio setup in the analog astro series, the radios will automatically respond to the correct address for PTT and all other functions from an a9 head once both have been programmed as part of a multi radio system and given primary or secondary status. As for interfacing to a jedi, I don't think I've ever seen a multi radio environment variable, even in the lab screens. No reason you couldn't use a 485-232 converter and do a simple (noob here, standard disclaimer would apply) pic based serial control cuircut. for PTT.

As for generating a secondary ptt serial command for something other than a spectra, you'd need to be able to spoof the x9000 head into thinking that there was a second radio on the bus, including mimicing whatever watchdog data the system might need to see, otherwise the system would probably fail out on you. not insurmountable, but no walk in the park there.

if you only need to use one channel on the jedi radio, You could use a second spectra in the system as a buffer, programmed as a single channel secondary radio, minus the PA or something, and export the PTT and tx audio discretes, maybe even the monitor function if you can figure it out, to an external radio. that's probably the easiest solution, even though it means another chassis in the trunk. Great use for all those cheap government split uhf spectras out there....

I wonder if there is a common sb9600 command set across the portables and mobiles with only the radio address dictating how the radio interprets the data?
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Re: Dual Astro mobile\single control head

Post by TWEMARS »

How about this?

In Syntor 9000 Dual Radio each radio has an extra bit that ID's it as a PRIMARY or SECONDARY radio that the regular RSS doesn't see, right? For the conventional Spectra can we imbed this bit in the radio somehow ? Motorola already has a Dual Radio setup but it utilizes the SEIU nightmare and 10,000 different weird wires and cables.

In the Syntor 9000 Dual Radio if I remember correctly there is no PTT wire to the second radio from the primary radio.

One last thought: Last month I needed a Syntor 9000 head and none were available. We used a SPECTRA head, programmed it correctly in a SPECTRA then slapped it onto the Syntor 9000 Radio. PRESTO! Worked fine! Not only that the Syntor 9000, the old Spectras, the ASTRO Spectras and the XTL radios all use the same DEK box so the communication architecture/protocol must be the same.

Just some very incomplete thoughts. Alex, Peter, where can we go with this?

SS
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Re: Dual Astro mobile\single control head

Post by Pj »

Since the initial post, I have gone in great depth several times on some of the setups.

As far as multi-radio goes, this is what is known:

X9000 with the HHCH or Systems 9000 head
Spectra with the HHCH
ASTRO Spectra with the HHCH (not W3)
XTL5000 with the HHCH (not W3)

Variations:
X9000 with spectra secondary receiver (Washington State setup)
ASTRO Spectra dual radio receiver (2nd radio fully functions as a radio, but DOES NOT TX)

Rumor Mill:
XTL5000 O series has been long rumored to be able to do dual radio, but apparently with the APX series out, its been shelved and its not going to happen (hopefully it will).

There was a post from someone who stated that a couple of 3 letter agencies have an ASTRO Spectra W9 setup. After a couple of digging in, this person appeared to be located at such a 3 letter agency but was not able to provide any addtional details of this. This was from several years ago and no one has since come forward or details made available.

The Systems 9000 1073 head can be used with an X9000 or Spectra A9 head. There was also another part number (escaping me) that contained both Spectra and X9000 firmware. There is a documented trick where you can use a 1063 head into being a spectra head and vice versa. 1063 and 1073 are essentially the same head, different firmware programming.

Of course with all of the above, special cables and/or software are/may be required to properly operate it. The easiest one to date is the ASTRO Spectra setup. If you only need to RX on one band (most commonly 800), that is the way to go. Only one special cable ("Y" cable that connects the two drawers and the control head - W7 or W9) and your in business. The 2nd radio is prohibited in the firmware from TX'ing so its the safest way to monitor a trunked system aside from a scanner. Not limited to 800, and band/split ASTRO Spectra will work. Only catch is that both radios must be of the same control head type. Last I checked, all parts were still orderable and resonably priced, even at list prices.
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TWEMARS
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Re: Dual Astro mobile\single control head

Post by TWEMARS »

"The Systems 9000 1073 head can be used with an X9000 or Spectra A9 head. There was also another part number (escaping me) that contained both Spectra and X9000 firmware. There is a documented trick where you can use a 1063 head into being a spectra head and vice versa. 1063 and 1073 are essentially the same head, different firmware programming."

I have successfully, and recently, had need for a 1063 for an X9000 and didn't have one available so I used a 1073 BUT I had to program it on a Spectra then move it to the X9000. Interesting what buttons you get AND that seem to work on an X9000 when the head is programmed on a Spectra. Next I'm gonna try direct to mode buttons. Sure would be fun on a 128M X9000.

As far as heads are concerned, the 1073 that Parts currently supplies, albeit with blank buttons, can be initialized as an X9000, X9000 Dual Radio or an Analog Spectra. There's probably more but that's all I have tried.

There's also a board set available that does the same, HLN6284D that is only control head boards BUT it's about a hunderd bucks more than a whole control head. Way to go Mr. Brown!
I have a Halcyon TIMS. It has an audio spectrum analyzer.
I have an IFR 1200. It has an audio distortion analyzer.
I can test and alter the audio response and distortion of my analog radio system to make it sound better.
I have a pair of socks.
Why would I want to put them in my mouth just so I could sound like I'm using a DMR radio?
NickH
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Re: Dual Astro mobile\single control head

Post by NickH »

The XTL5000 dual radio with W3 is still avaialble, I have one in a box in my office. It's VHF/UHF.
The most common ones we see are the older HHCH spectras for hte 3 lettered folks, but even the last few of those have had new XTL's with W3's.

-Nick
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