Astro Smartzone

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Einstein
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Astro Smartzone

Post by Einstein »

In programming a XTS 5000 for Smartzone operation, and the radio set for transmit inhibit, how much of the Smartzone features are there going to be if the radio does not affiliate? It seems to receive all traffic, has the RSSI features etc., so far. Is it that the radio will only not affiliate with each site? No signal is being transmitted from the radio at all.
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by PhillyPhoto »

Einstein wrote:In programming a XTS 5000 for Smartzone operation, and the radio set for transmit inhibit, how much of the Smartzone features are there going to be if the radio does not affiliate? It seems to receive all traffic, has the RSSI features etc., so far. Is it that the radio will only not affiliate with each site? No signal is being transmitted from the radio at all.
I was under the impression that if its setup for auto affiliate and it can't will would go "out of range" and you won't hear anything. I always thought this was the "protection" of the newer ASTRO25 radios.

What is the firmware you have in the radio? Also what version of CPS was used?
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Einstein »

Host 09.00.01 DSP 09.00.00
CPS ver. 9.0
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by PhillyPhoto »

Was this for a 3600 or 9600 baud system? I believe 9600 baud systems get all their info from the controller, so that's why you have to affiliate
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Einstein »

It's a Type II Smartzone system running at 3600 baud.
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by PhillyPhoto »

Since it's 3600 baud, it will probably act like a smartnet radio. SmartZone is more for tx'ing radios so if a talkgroup isn't active on the site you're listening to, it will become active, so I don't think you'll have a problem in the setup you have currently. How did you go about the tx inhibit? Did you put in a conventional frequency, turn it on set the tx inhibit, then program the trunking data?
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Einstein »

Tx inhibit was done through the front display ( Display and Menus ) Radio was put in a shielded enclosure, tx inhibit enabled then removed and antenna attached.
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by PhillyPhoto »

That's one way of doing it :lol: I know there has been discussion here before about beating auto-affiliation with the 5Ks, and it looks like you've figured it out. Have you hooked it up to any type of test equipment to be 100% positive it's not transmitting?
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Einstein »

Yes, Service monitor, spectrum analyzer, freq. counter. All measurements made with antenna attached and in system range. No output.
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by PhillyPhoto »

Cool. Hopefully this will further the discussion of 5Ks and auto-affiliation. I know there were suggestions of putting it in a channel higher than 16, and then using a scan list, but I never had much trust in that method. Can anyone else verify this? I don't have any 5ks, so I can't. Thanks for the info!
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by mike m »

Yep that method works just fine,

Just set your radio up with all of of your trunking personalities in the channels above channel #16 and point to these trunking personalities from a conventional channel that has auto scan enabled.

Just make sure that channels 1 to 16 of a single zone are set to conventional and channels above 16 are your hidden trunking Tgs.

Most important is that you 'Do not' place a 'channel' item in the menu list of the radio either as you never want to be able to select a channel above channel #16.

To summarize the set up:
Set channels 1 to 16 as conventional only and have them point to your trunking channels which are placed in the channels of a zone above channel 16.

The trunking personalities/TG's will be automatically selected by the auto scan feature when you select the channel of a particular zone.

For instance set channel 1 as a conventional channel with scan list 1 enabled and scan set to auto scan.

next make up scan list 1 to contain zone 1 channel 17 in it as an example.

zone 1 channel 17 will contain your desired trunking personality say for instance trunking pers #1.

Then in trunking personality #1 set this to scan list 1 also and enable auto scan in the trunking pers.

One other thing, Don't turn on smartzone either. Put a transmit inhibit item in the menu list and turn it on.

This works with 9600 K systems as it does with 3600 just fine but you can only monitor a single tower at a time which shouldn't be a problem.

This works fine in the XTS5000s but it gets ugly and hard to manage the hidden channels with the scan groups especially if you have lots of Talk groups.

Never had a radio affiliate yet but unfortunately I don't have any radios to play with anymore but a friend tried this with a customer a few months ago as it came up in idle chit chat one day.

His system never showed the radio affiliating but the xts5000 sure tracked the P25 9600 system in RX mode just fine.


Mike
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Elroy Jetson
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Elroy Jetson »

It's nice to hear confirmation from the field that this "safe scanning" approach, which I came up with a few years ago,
actually seems to work exactly as intended.

:)

If you don't have a shielded enclosure, obtain a 3 watt-capable shielded dummy load with an SMA connector and connect it to the antenna port
during the power-on and selection of TX Inhibit.

In the case of an Astro Saber, you can program both the A and B positions of the A/B switch to TX Inhibit. (Or to the secure switch.)
That will make SURE that you can't accidentally transmit or work your way around it without reprogramming it. I guess you could reprogram
the ABC switch to the same function in all three positions on any XTS radio, too.


Elroy
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by PhillyPhoto »

Instead of going through all the trouble of enclosures, and dummy loads etc, couldn't you just throw in a conventional frequency and then set it for TX inhibit, and then put the trunking data in? I would think this would be easier.

Also, anyone have any suggestions on how to convince a non-believer? My friend thinks that even with TX inhibit, since it's set for auto-affiliation it will transmit when you first power it on, regardless of the TX inhibit state.
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Elroy Jetson
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Elroy Jetson »

But if you don't set for SmartZone, you're not forced to set auto-affiliate, see?

SmartZone allows a radio to request talkgroups that normally are assigned to OTHER sites but are not
normally assigned to the CURRENT site the radio is on. Of course, you don't want to be trying to scan
in SmartZone mode if you're not an authorized system user, so there's NO point at all in EVER setting
your radio up as SmartZone. Stick with single zone programming (SmartNet, for example) and you'll
be able to deny auto-affiliate, at least as far as the software's concerned.

We've been doing this for a long time now. Trust us. If there IS a "safe" way to scan a SmartZone
system, you'll find it HERE, by listening to the more experienced people here. And I'm not afraid
to say that I'm among that bunch. I DEVELOPED two of the hacks and work-arounds that are now
part of the bag of tools and tricks that the Motoscanners like us all use regularly.

Granted, I'm not current with today's version of every flavor of Motorola trunked radio and system,
but the concepts still apply.

Elroy
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by PhillyPhoto »

Also, if you're dealing with a VHF/UHF system, simply put in dummy TX frequencies (430.0000 etc), and it will never affiliate either... 8)
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by DES-AJ »

LuiePL wrote:Also, if you're dealing with a VHF/UHF system, simply put in dummy TX frequencies (430.0000 etc), and it will never affiliate either... 8)
I have an XTS2500I and same works - Rather than have the possible issue of having it affilate - just change the TX channel range to something you can TX on.

It will even tell you the site name and vote between the best site - This is something no scanner can do!

Only possible issue is not hearing a call on a site thats not active for that TG but scanners have this problem to!

Can't do this on a 3000.
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Einstein
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Einstein »

In my situation, the radio is set up for Smartzone, Tx Inhibit, and is set up for trunking in the first zone and channels list with no transmit al all. After some more testing with several different pieces of equipment, this has been confirmed. Yes you can have a dummy load attached after the initial programming since it will try to affiliate if you have the first channel or system a Smartzone system. It also appears that if the radio cannot detect a control channel upon power-up it will not try to affiliate, so you will have time to turn on transmit inhibit before it tries to affiliate when it detects the control channel. Anyways it is nice to have the RSSI meter and see the site number.
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by PhillyPhoto »

IIRC, the meter on the 3Ks are for 9600 baud systems right? I wish they worked on 3600 baud systems. Oh well...
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Einstein »

Not tested the 3000's. The 5000's work on 3600 baud.
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9600 Bits per second, NOT 9600 BAUD

Post by Wowbagger »

Please stop abusing poor Mr. Baudot's child.

A baud is a SYMBOL PER SECOND. NOT A BIT PER SECOND.

APCO-25 is 4800 BAUD. It transmits 4800 symbols per second. Each symbol is worth 2 bits of information, so APCO-25 transmits a total of 9600 bits per second -


OVER A 4800 BAUD CHANNEL.

Please, don't perpetuate this error - it really DOES make it more confusing when trying to deal with people who aren't really sure what type of system they have.
This is my opinion, not Aeroflex's.

I WILL NOT give you proprietary information. I make too much money to jeopardize my job.

I AM NOT the Service department: You want official info, manuals, service info, parts, calibration, etc., contact Aeroflex directly, please.
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Einstein »

Yes a full APCO 25 system is 9600 bits per sec or 4800 Baud
I was trying to say that the system that I was referencing was at 3600 bits per sec or 1800 baud
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by xmo »

You're fighting a loosing battle here, Wowbagger, since Motorola continues to use the 9600 baud term in reference to their new systems.

Plus, now you've even confused Einstein:

"...I was trying to say that the system that I was referencing was at 3600 bits per sec or 1800 baud..."

But since the 3600 systems use two level digital modulation BPS = baud in this case.

It's just not worth arguing with the prevailing custom...
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Einstein »

I have heard each way for a number of years. It is not worth arguing about. I think we should just say high speed or low speed data or just say old or new and improved.
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Wowbagger »

xmo wrote:You're fighting a loosing battle here, Wowbagger,
And I will continue to battle both the BPS/Baud issue and the "losing"/"loosing" issue.

No battle is lost until you stop fighting!
This is my opinion, not Aeroflex's.

I WILL NOT give you proprietary information. I make too much money to jeopardize my job.

I AM NOT the Service department: You want official info, manuals, service info, parts, calibration, etc., contact Aeroflex directly, please.
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by PhillyPhoto »

I like the idea of setting it up to tx on a channel that you can 8). I would think UHFs would be better suited for this role, as they are easier to manipulate. It's safe to assume the 5Ks also let you set the tx freq on VHF/UHF systems?
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Elroy Jetson
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Elroy Jetson »

Yes, as frequency allocations in VHF and UHF are flexible while the 800 bandplan was rigidly organized from the very start.

I'm amazed that after all this time the VHF and UHF bands haven't been completely refarmed and highly organized. But part of the problem is deeply entrenched services like the international VHF marine channels. They cover a pretty broad range.


Elroy
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by xmo »

"loosing" ?

Oops!

I know better.
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Elroy Jetson
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Elroy Jetson »

A few points:

The reason for hiding your trunked groups where they can't be directly accessed by the operator is simply...STEALTH.

Suppose a nosy cop wants to look at your radio. If you turn off the scan by hitting the appropriate control before handing it to him, that is, if you DO
hand your radio to him, (which you probably have no legal obligation to do but I'm no lawyer so don't necessarily trust my opinion on that...) then he
won't observe any direct evidence that his talkgroups are in your radio. It's a simple but reasonably effective form of operational security.

Second...in SOME systems, IF you select a talkgroup, the radio will try to affiliate. If it did, you programmed it wrong. But it can happen.
And, some system types are KNOWN to ignore the TX INHIBIT function and will auto-login anyway. And the transmissions can be so fast that you
won't even see the TX LED blink.

Programming in SmartZone mode IS ALWAYS WRONG if you're not an authorized system user, PERIOD. DO. NOT. DO. IT. EVER. DO. I MAKE. MYSELF. CLEAR????

It gives you absolutely NO benefits and compromises your own TX-resistant security.


Third...this seems obvious but I've never seen it mentioned:

Program your trunking groups to tx at LOW power. And use a wattmeter and the tuner application (and whatever other tools
are essential) and tune the low power setting to be as low as it possibly can go. I'd imagine that it should be able to drop down
to 100 milliwatts or less.

I'll try that...I've now got a good 800 MHz Astro Saber and tomorrow I'll hook it up to first my wattmeter and then, if it can go low
enough, to one of my calibrated microwattmeters and see how low the output can go.

The whole point here is to be able to scan SAFELY using a radio that's far superior in performance and durability to anything made by
Uniden/Bearcat or any other scanner company. It's simply foolish to not take EVERY possible precaution in order to ensure that your
radio doesn't announce its presence to the system, in which case it may soon become a brick with no useful purpose and can only be
recovered by a trip to the Moto Depot...which is likely to result in a few pointed questions about its contents.


Elroy
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Elroy Jetson
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Elroy Jetson »

You know, I'd forgotten just how nerve-racking this sort of setup can be.

Let's see...

You can have 15 channels in a scan list in conventional mode, but only 10 talkgroups in a trunking scan list.

Any given trunking personality and all of its individual talkgroups can only be assigned to a single scan list.
But, when setting up the scan list entries, you can reference any personality and talkgroup in the radio.
That's a bit...screwy. Not well thought out, I think.

So you'll never actually be able to scan more than 10 talkgroups at any given moment.

Frankly, that sort of sucks. The limit on talkgroup scan on an EDACS radio like a M/A-Com 7100IP or Jaguar 700P
is FIFTY talkgroups in a single scan list. And each system can have its own scan list.

Ten might not be enough groups in a scan list. But fifty has never been too many.

And of course you get the unrivalled joy of linking up all the talkgroups to the zone/channel assignments,
and then setting the scan list assignments, and hope you don't forget anything.

So to keep things simple I'm only putting 10 talkgroups into any given personality. Why not? At least I can
make sure that every talkgroup is part of a scan list and it's about the easiest way I can think of to make this
a little bit comprehensible.

Oh yeah...you've got to name all this stuff and it's done in the zone/channel assignment menu. I hope you
kept your lists handy and can pick up the names from the talkgroup IDs!

And I hope you didn't forget to input 16 conventional personalities as the FIRST 16 in EACH zone that is to
contain "hidden" trunking personalities for scanning.


If I were to sit down and try to make a diagram of all this in Visio, it'd look a lot like the interconnect diagrams for
a ten-layer PC board, or worse.

I'm getting a headache but I'm almost done with the FIRST system's data.


:/


Incidentally, I was able to tune this 800 MHz Astro Saber to a minimum power of about a quarter of a watt.
Simply zeroing out the slider bars and saving the new value after moving EACH bar is all you need to do to
minimize power output.

I think that 250 milliwatts would still be enough to log-in but you'd have to be CLOSE to the site for that to happen,
well under a mile, at a guess. Certainly this would contribute another level of safety to your efforts to avoid having
your radio bricked.



Elroy
Last edited by Elroy Jetson on Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by PhillyPhoto »

Elroy Jetson wrote:You can have 15 channels in a scan list in conventional mode, but only 10 talkgroups in a trunking scan list.
That's the part I've never gotten. You can have 15 talkgroups per-personality, but only scan 10 of them.

Personally, I encourage you to make that Visio diagram! :lol:
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Elroy Jetson
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Elroy Jetson »

Since I don't know how to use Visio worth half a darn, that'd be even worse than getting this massive file set up!

And I'm having com port issues now, too. I went to transfer my install to my fast desktop computer, and as luck would have it,
it's one of those Dells with a serial port issue. Newer CPS doesn't work with it.

This Dell has been a great PC...but why can't they choose to standardize everything???

Heck...half the USB flash drives don't work on it! Kingstons always do, Memorex MAYBE, PNY...NEVER.

And of course, I didn't bring home the codeplug from the work PC so I can't even work on it offline.

My OLD versions of CPS...which won't work on a radio that's been programmed with a newer version, of course...DO work
nicely with the serial ports on this PC.

Of course.

Heck with it...I'm going to dust off my old PII-400 and put it back into service! It never failed to work
reliably on any comm port.


Elroy
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by mr.syntrx »

Elroy Jetson wrote:I'm amazed that after all this time the VHF and UHF bands haven't been completely refarmed and highly organized. But part of the problem is deeply entrenched services like the international VHF marine channels. They cover a pretty broad range.
FWIW, I'm happy that hasn't happened. It means 800MHz style hassles (reflashing, replacing etc) if the band plan ever changes, and it also means a different firmware version for radios in every country you'd ever sell a radio in.
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Elroy Jetson
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Elroy Jetson »

It wouldn't be a problem if they didn't change the band limits. 136 to 174 MHz. Or 134 to 178 in the extended plan.

As long as the band limits didn't change, there'd be no need for reflashing on account of that issue, at least.

Rebanding does have its consequences, though...a whole lot of marginally useful older radios will suddenly become just
so much useless junk. I doubt the old STX radios are rebandable, don't you? :D And all those GE RANGR mobiles...those
were great radios but I'm sure they'll be left behind as they're mostly phased out already in any event.


Elroy
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Elroy Jetson
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Elroy Jetson »

I've been reviewing my notes on "safe scanning" with a trunking Motorola portable, and there are a few pitfalls to be
noticed and avoided.

The "hidden talkgroups" method requires you to add 16 filler conventional personalites to EACH zone, and this
will eat up your available personalities in a big hurry. An Astro Saber has only 255 personalities available, so
if you have 10 zones, which is only 100 scannable talkgroups, you have 160 personalites taking up space,
and right now you're over the 255 zone limit with 260 personalities.

It's PERSONALITIES that count, not CHANNELS. So it makes no difference at all if your 16 conventional
personalities all point to the same conventional channel, or 16 different ones...except that if you want
more than one scan list, you have to have more than one conventional channel, each connected to its own scan list.

So I thought of a better way. But it's pretty limiting in some ways.

DUMP YOUR ZONE MENU FROM THE RADIO. You now can't even switch zones. You've already dumped your CHAN
menu as well.

So all you have left is to switch between 16 conventional personalities, each of which is slaved to its own scan list
with up to 10 trunking members.

As you rotate the knob, you can scan 160 personalities, 10 at a time.


I'm trying to summarize the process in as few words as possible:

Enter up to 10 talkgroups per trunked personality.
Create a zone of 10 channels for each trunked personality.
Create a conventional channel for each trunked personality.
The conventional channel's scan list is the talkgroup list in a single personality, up to 10 entries.

The first 16 channels in the first zone must be conventional. Their scan lists are what refers to
the trunked personalities.

You don't want to be able to access the trunked personalities by any other means, for safety.
So you don't want a zone or channel menu selection. That sounds very limiting, but it's safer.

And, program the scan lists to be operator selectable. Now here's a cool part, right there:
You can have more than 160 trunked talkgroups in your radio now, with only 16 personalities in the
radio being dedicated to conventional personalities. You still can't have more than 160 direct
talkgroups in the scan lists (actually there is a way...more on that later at the bottom) but you can
drop the boring groups in favor of others you've stored.

If you do screw up and TX into a system, shut your radio down right away, unscrew the antenna,
and reprogram the radio with a new ID. Pick one. Any way you want to.


The way to get more scan talkgroups...it involves a little risk. DO put the CHAN menu into the radio,
but NOT the ZONE menu. AND, the FIRST ZONE can have ANY number of conventional personalities in it
but needs to have NO trunked personalities.

You can add conventional personalities, each scanning 10 talkgroups, until your radio simply runs out of room
to hold them all. That'd be about 23 channels scanning 230 talkgroups. Or if some of your talkgroup lists are shorter,
you could get a few more channels in there. All accessible via the CHAN menu.

Of course, the 255 channel limit doesn't necessarily apply to newer radios like the XTS500, which I believe can take
850 personalities.

But even 850 personalities pales in comparison with codeplugs I've seen (and saved) from EDACS portable radios,
which contained over 4000 unique talkgroups in over 120 separate systems. Motorola really needs to get a grip
regarding how many personalities their customers might really need. They've always been rather stingy in this
and other related aspects. The 10 talkgroup per scan list limitation is simply ridiculous.



I really should write the whole thing up as a summary file for the archives.

Elroy
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by DES-AJ »

Third...this seems obvious but I've never seen it mentioned:

Program your trunking groups to tx at LOW power. And use a wattmeter and the tuner application (and whatever other tools
are essential) and tune the low power setting to be as low as it possibly can go. I'd imagine that it should be able to drop down
to 100 milliwatts or less.
Why would anyone stuff their radios alignment values up when a much more effective and easier way would be to change the TX ranges for the system programmed??? If the frequency range that the system is programmed to TX to is different from that of the system you are RX'ing then no matter how high or low your power level is you won't be talking to that system... As long as you set the TX range to a channel that you can legally tx to then it's completely legal as well.
So I thought of a better way. But it's pretty limiting in some ways.

DUMP YOUR ZONE MENU FROM THE RADIO. You now can't even switch zones. You've already dumped your CHAN
menu as well.
Ok I can see where you are coming from but lets say this is an XTS3000 or an AS3 and not an ASTRO25 radio, if "they" take that radio off you and read it via CPS all will be revealed regardless of how inoperable you have made your own radio to use via the keypad... Perhaps you should also cut the side accessory port's flex cable on the radios housing so they can't read it! 8)

SMARTZONE Paranoia... :lol:
AES AND DES ARE NOT CCI's - YOU CAN EXPORT THEM IF YOU WANT - Wassenaar Arrangement
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Elroy Jetson
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Elroy Jetson »

Keep in mind that I haven't yet had a chance to play with XTS2500s or XTS5000s, nor am I directly referring to monitoring
trunked systems other than 800 MHz systems, where the offset isn't selectable.

Paranoia in the case of an 800 system is probably a good thing. I've seen Astro Sabers that should have been FULLY
locked down solid, not able to TX at all on a trunked system, go out and affiliate ANYWAY. But not if using the hidden groups
method, and sticking to it without cheating.

You've got at least two power settings to mess with, maybe three or more depending on the radio. Setting low power to be as low
as it can possibly go, and setting the trunked personalities to use low power, is entirely sensible from the standpoint of someone
who wants to monitor under stealthy conditions.


Elroy
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Elroy Jetson »

Hey, here's an interesting little pitfall to avoid!

As you know, you can set up what menus are available to you in both trunking and conventional modes, with each having
its own SEPARATE list of menu selections to choose from.

Suppose you kept your zone menu in coventional mode but didn't have a zone menu in trunking mode.

This allows you to be in conventional mode, hit ZONE, and access a zone that has trunked data in it.

And once you're set on that zone, you don't have the ZONE menu. (If you don't have at least one conventional
personality in that zone.) You're TRAPPED! Unless you have an unprogrammed
selection on the selector knob, in which case the radio reverts to the conventional menus, or you have a
conventional channel in that zone, THEN, your zone menu is now accessible and you can get back to other zones.


Be careful about that!


Elroy
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Elroy Jetson
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Elroy Jetson »

I've done a lot of experimenting with the "hidden trunking personalities" method of safe scanning, and I think that
I've come up with the most elegant and functional setup yet.

Option 1:
First zone: Contains 16 conventional personalities. Contains NO trunked personalities. Each conventional personality
points to a scan list of up to 10 trunked talkgroups.

Second thru 17th zone: Contains only trunked personalities, up to 10 entries each. The 10 personalities in this zone will
be assigned to a specific numbered scan list. For simplicity's sake, they are numbered in order.

The radio does NOT have a ZONE select option. No ZONE menu. Not in trunking or conventional mode.
NOR does it have a CHAN select menu entry. Simply because it's not necessary in this setup. Keep it simple.

Operation is dead simple: The rotary knob allows you to select any of your 16 scan lists. You can't manually
select ANY trunked groups in the radio. They can only be scanned.


Option 2: For when you have more than 160 groups you want to scan, in total.

Same as above, but you DO allow the CHAN menu to be included in the radio. In fact, you're going to need it.

The first zone of conventional personalities contains MORE than 16 conventional channels. it will contain one
channel for each group of 10 trunked talkgroups you wish to scan. So if you need to scan up to 230
talkgroups, you enter 23 conventional personalities, each pointing to a unique conventional channel. (So you
have 23 conventional channels programmed.) Each conventional channel has its own scan list, of up to 10
trunked talkgroups each.

In the case of an Astro Saber III, at least, this is going to be the limit you can put in the radio, a max of
254 personalities, or maybe less depending on how many zones you have. You may have to dump some
of the less interesting talkgroups from your scan list. Some newer radios may have more capacity.
And if scanning multiple systems, you may need it.

You retain the use of the CHAN menu so that you can have access to the conventional personalities (and
their scan lists) above channel 16.

I personally program all the scan lists to autoscan. Why not? This radio is for scanning. It has no other purpose,
so autoscan makes perfect sense.



All trunking personalities are programmed with NO coverage option. Not AMSS, not SmartZone. Those will do you
absolutely no good in any event as the additional capabilities those features offer will REQUIRE your radio to be
an active, transmitting member of the system...and authorized, of course.



I guess that's about the most concise summary of the method that I can currently come up with. Maybe it's good
enough to be added to the knowledge base?


Elroy
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Pj
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Pj »

My favorite TRS setup....get the Astro Spectra dual reciever control cable and hook up the 800 unit as the aux radio. Once programmed as an aux radio, it will NEVER tx...convetional or trunked, MDC call, smartnet or SZ.
Lowband radio. The original and non-complicated wide area interoperable communications system
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Elroy Jetson
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Elroy Jetson »

Yeah, that's a great setup...but it's REALLY uncomfortable to tote around clipped to your belt! :lol:


Elroy
mike m
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by mike m »

QUOTE 'Instead of going through all the trouble of enclosures, and dummy loads etc, couldn't you just throw in a conventional frequency and then set it for TX inhibit, and then put the trunking data in? I would think this would be easier."

Yes, I guess my post was to long and winded and not clear enough because that is exactly what I did.

I had 16 conventional personalities in channels 1 to 16 with tx inhibit enabled on each and some of these conventional personalities have auto scan enabled which called scan lists that include the desired trunking personalities.

These trunking personalities also have auto scan enabled in the same scan list# of the conventional personality that calls them.

No need to turn the radio on with a dummy load or anything like that, just don't put a channel item in the menu list so that channels above 16 are not visible and your all set to scan.
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Elroy Jetson
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Elroy Jetson »

Or use the 2nd option I detailed above, which makes things simpler and frees up a lot more personalities to use.


I've got a question or two or three...


I haven't tried these things out yet because I'd rather ask first and maybe get the benefit of someone else's experience first.


1: With a multi-site system, do you think that there's a way for me to set the radio to automatically switch sites without
violating the main rule, which is to never allow the radio to transmit anything? If I set the personalities to WAC or AMSS,
let alone SmartZone, will I be breaking that rule? I'd THINK that the radio would never TX off of a mere scan list, but there
are some non-obvious things about these radios and the CPS...

2: The radio has the right options to do digital ID display. But I can't find it to enable it in the software? Where?

3: Modulator type: How will I KNOW if a given system is using CQPSK, C4FM, or WIDE modulation?



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NSPD
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by NSPD »

Not to get off topic...

Astro Sabers - No need for hidden talkgroups unless you just want to be stealthy. Coverage type set to disabled, Concentric switch set to TX Inhibit in both positions, improper Connect tone, and ALL talkgroups strapped to secure with no module present. No affiliation on power up or channel change by directly selecting talkgroups.

XTS3000 - Same as Astro Saber.

As for the XTS5000, I would love to know if it's possible to not affiliate without using the "Hidden Talkgroups" method, which I find pointless if i'm paying money to buy a 5k for the 850 modes. If I wanted to scan 160 or 240 talkgroups, i'd buy an Astro Saber or XTS3000 and be done with it.

What I would like to know is if it's possible to beat the affiliation attempts even when directly selecting zones and talkgroups to monitor...
Jake
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Elroy Jetson
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Elroy Jetson »

I'm just not all that sure I trust the radio to not affiliate on changing talkgroups or on powerup, if set to a trunked personality. I'd hate to be wrong,
and the hidden groups method via the channel selector (option 2 above) is pretty efficient, actually.

I've noted in "authentic" SmartZone radios that the control channel list for a system was HUGE. May I presume that the control channels for each site are all together in one list?

Is that the secret to making AMSS work?

Can the "hidden talkgroups" method still work SAFELY if using AMSS, or maybe even SmartZone? (Astro Saber)

I COULD try it...but not tonight.

Elroy
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NSPD
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by NSPD »

I am certainly not knocking your Hidden Talkgroups Method as it has it's place, it just seems to have some flaws for some applications. I myself am not worried about stealth.

I have a habit of monitoring a single talkgroup most times until something happens, and then I will switch over and monitor the tac channel, or program the scan list on the fly to monitor dispatch and only one tac channel. This is on several large smartnet systems, but also sometimes on a statewide smartzone system. With Astro Sabers and XTS3000's, this is possible without any problems. That would be fine, except there are over 500 talkgroups I would like to monitor and I would also like to alias a name to all the common ID's I see, neither of which the AS/XTS3k support.
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Elroy Jetson
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Elroy Jetson »

Yeah, it's a "special purpose" approach, not suitable for everybody. But it's the safest PROVEN approach to monitoring a Motorola trunked system,
using a Motorola trunked radio, when the radio user has no authorization to be a user of that system, and he must remain stealthy so as to avoid
having his radio stunned, inhibited or traced. Absolute silence on the part of the radio's transmitter is of utmost importance.

In short, it's probably the best approach for MOST of the people who are reading this topic. ;)

RESPONSIBLE scanning will never cause a problem for anyone, not the system being monitored, and not for the scanner community in general,
but it doesn't take very many unauthorized radios logging into a system to cause the system manager to pick up the phone and talk to his friendly
local Motorola salesdroid about system upgrades to full-time encryption, Advanced System Keys, and the Shuffle Control Channels option.

Abuse it, and before too terribly long there won't be ANY systems left that we can scan! Then the only hope we'll ever have is to either become cops
or to start a class action suit based on the FCC's affirmation of the right of the people to listen to what's on the airwaves...and probably lose since
paranoia and suspicion have unfortunately become entrenched in our culture since 9/11/2001.


Elroy
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SYNTORX71MAN
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by SYNTORX71MAN »

Well said Elroy...As a Leo I have always appreciated those trusty scanner listeners who call the PHQ and provided us with details or tips....God Bless E'm All....But Post 9/11 there are worries about terrorists gaining Opsec info or Jamming Radio Communications..... :o
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Elroy Jetson
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by Elroy Jetson »

I can tell you truthfully that on at least two occasions I have assisted the police in the location and apprehension of
someone who desperately needed it. in both cases I used the utmost in discretion and did not "play cop" in any
way, shape, or form. I merely noted a person or vehicle matching the description given in recent BOLOs (Be On LookOut)
that had been issued over the radio, and then called it in via cell phone, quietly withdrew to a very safe observing distance,
and watched to ensure that the police actually found the suspect. If the suspect had gone a different direction, I'd have
made another phone call for guidance.

And this was done in part by listening "outside" the usual channels of authorization. My radio wasn't programmed
by the county's radio shop nor would they have done so.

I'll do it again if the situation arises. Never getting in the way, only being helpful in an unobtrusive manner.

Heck, I'm the guy who'll go to the local convenience store and get some cold bottled water and hand it to a cop who's
pulling traffic light detail on a hot day because the light's gone out. It's always appreciated, here in Florida, especially
if it's a hot, sunny day.

I enthusiastically support law enforcement. And I love to listen in on what's going on, too. I don't think that anybody
like you or me should ever be denied the right to listen in and MAYBE give a helpful tip based on what we hear on our radios.

WE are not the enemy. But some system managers would like you to think that we are. They need to get a grip!

Elroy
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SYNTORX71MAN
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by SYNTORX71MAN »

Glad you are member who supports us Elroy...Many Thanks....In this age of Wackers/Wanna Be...It is nice to know Good Samaritans still exsist. 8) :D
motorola_otaku
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Re: Astro Smartzone

Post by motorola_otaku »

Elroy Jetson wrote:I've noted in "authentic" SmartZone radios that the control channel list for a system was HUGE. May I presume that the control channels for each site are all together in one list?

Is that the secret to making AMSS work?

Can the "hidden talkgroups" method still work SAFELY if using AMSS, or maybe even SmartZone? (Astro Saber)
The CC list for a Smartzone-enabled personality tops out at 38 individual channels. WAC AMSS tops out at 8. Wavetar found a neat trick that works on all radios that program with the Astro/MTSX RSS matrix: enable Smartzone in a personality, create 38 CC slots, then change the coverage type back to WAC AMSS and you'll still have 38 CC slots. You can even change frequencies after setting AMSS as the coverage type, and the radio will scan through all of them AMSS-style (which is to say, like a trunktracking scanner with no regards to RSSI.) Site Lock on AMSS is flaky though; if you completely lose a CC even with it turned on, it'll start scanning again. Site Search works, though, and you can keep press-holding until you find the site you want.

Note that the only real advantage to AMSS as a coverage type is that it lets you set the affiliation type to "On PTT." The radio can and will still respond to commands sent by the controller. If you could find a RSS or codeplug hack to let you set the individual ID to 0 like Spectras, Maxtracs, and STXes, you'd be set since 0 isn't a valid ID on the infrastructure side and therefore can't have stun or affiliate commands sent to it. And even that doesn't solve the problem of accidental PTTing via the button or speaker mic.
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