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TPS Signaling - FDNY type of signaling

This forum is dedicated to discussions pertaining specifically to the Motorola ASTRO line of radios (those that use VSELP/IMBE/AMBE), including using digital modulation, digital programming, FlashPort upgrades, etc. If you have general questions please use the General or Programming forums.

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Re: TPS Signaling - FDNY type of signaling

Postby alex » Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:45 am

Jbella,

You pretty much addressed and answered your own question.....

jbella wrote:Before our MCC5500 was installed and we were playing around with different options for the portables, the radio would squawk until the initiator reset his emergency button. Now, with the MCC5500, the squawk happens once and shuts off automatically. [See above for a rant on how useless that is]


Right -

See my post above in this same thread: "So if you are using this feature on a channel that is actively monitored by a console you probably will have to see if there is a way to disable emergency acknowledge (which there may not be a way to) on the console side." That was on 7/29, a good week ago.

jbella wrote:So in other words, we got it to work without the MCC5500, but since our emergency default is Zone 1 Ch 1, we can't get it to activate without being acknowledged.


Right because that's how the console works!

So start a new thread in the infrastructure forum titled "Disabling Emergency in a MCC5500" and see what answers you get. I don't think it's possible since the idea is that the console should capture the packet and send an acknowledgment out so the radio stops transmitting the emergency. This then frees up the channel for people who are trying to help the person out of the problem they are in and they are not getting stomped on by an emergency packet.

Maybe you want to consider the use of a "Guard" channel for emergency packets.

The reason why I pointed this out with relation to the FDNY is that they don't use a console on that channel so there is nothing to transmit back a "yes, I heard you now stop alerting packet" That is why this works flawlessly for them.

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Re: TPS Signaling - FDNY type of signaling

Postby Pj » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:52 am

I think your trying to put too mucg faith in the radios for your project. Although I appauld your efforts for another tool in the hands of Jakes, it sounds like may need to rethink your radio stragety.

If you have only on repeater, don't operate your fireground on it. As Alex says, the console is doing its job. Using the radio as a PASS device isn't the greatest thing. That's what intergrated and clip on devices are for. Sure you can hit the emergency putting and make the radio squak, but then your not talking voice or hearing the people trying to find you.

Changing the emergency revert is easy. Changing other related emergency options is just a click. Lookong deeper into your post it seems like there are other subtle issues that need to be resolved before really persuing this avenue.
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Re: TPS Signaling - FDNY type of signaling

Postby jbella » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:38 pm

I thank both of you for your replies. And yes, I did understand the comment previous about the console.

I suppose my argument is more along these lines:

Why isn't it user selectable?

The techs installing the system spent a pretty good amount of time with the MCC5500 looking for the option to disable the automatic acknowledgment, they couldn't find one. In my mind, there is no good reason why the radio can't continue to squawk, even if it is not still transmitting the emergency data packet (i.e. it has been acknowledged). It would be like a car with OnStar; someone tries to break in, the horn starts beeping and a message is sent to On Star. They acknowledge receipt of the break in alarm but the horn doesn't stop beeping until a pre-determined time expires. My argument to Motorola is; just because the console has acknowledged an emergency doesn't mean the person is out of danger or is rescued.

At this point, simplex fireground is out of the question. Also, I want it as more of a redundant feature, we do have integrated PASS. There have been instances where disoriented firefighters in distress have shed their SCBAs if they were out of air. Also I'd like it as a wakeup call if someone accidentally keys their emergency button. It certainly gets your attention.

I do appreciate the attention my problem has gotten. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm not going to accept the status quo from /\/\.

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Re: TPS Signaling - FDNY type of signaling

Postby Pj » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:19 pm

Some of this sounds like user training. I've NEVER been taught to ditch your SCBA if your out of air... especially now with DRT's, buddy breathers...and well....your PASS device.

Remember, the radio will TX emergency poliety (whats for a dropped carrier) and impolitely (will transmit reguarless of carrier) x amount of times that is programmed into the EMER field, until ack'd.

Also consider this... everytime the console gets the EMER signal, you get the red EMER screen and all the alarms go off. How quickely do you think your dispatcher will want to string you up after they reset the alarm, then TRY TO TALK TO COMMAND OR THE FF and the friggin alarm goes back off rendering the whole process counter productive?
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Re: TPS Signaling - FDNY type of signaling

Postby Pj » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:21 pm

Sorry, tyuping this in traffic so I'll try to clean up teh post latr
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Re: TPS Signaling - FDNY type of signaling

Postby jbella » Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:21 am

pj; here isn't the place to discuss the issue of ditching an SCBA, the only point is that you never know how people under threat of their lives will react. It has happened in the past, and I wouldn't want to bet my or my best friend's life that it will never happen again.

The main point is that I don't want the radio to keep transmitting the emergency data packet after acknowledge. I want the audible ping, squawk, beep, tone whatever you want to call it to keep sounding on the initiating radio, until reset by the user. It is an audible beacon or locating device that sounds on the initiating radio only.

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Re: TPS Signaling - FDNY type of signaling

Postby Pj » Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:28 pm

...and your not going to get it the way your system is setup.

Also pay special attention to my previous post above about the consoles. By the radio resending the emer packet, your going to be esstenially be disabling the dispatchers as the consoles go into emergency and wrecks havoc with operations.

Yes, the beeps are nice to have, but your still trying to turn a radio into something its not designed to be.

If you really want to use it in this respect, consider looking into Moto's fireground accountibility package.
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Re: TPS Signaling - FDNY type of signaling

Postby 123 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:42 pm

jbella wrote:Am I being clear enough in what I am looking for and what I'm trying to enable? I'm trying not to confuse TPS with FDNY signaling.

The audible Emergency Beacon makes a unique, PASS type sound when the emergency button is pushed. Only on the initiating radio. In theory it would give a search team another audio clue as to the location of a downed firefighter.

Before our MCC5500 was installed and we were playing around with different options for the portables, the radio would squawk until the initiator reset his emergency button. Now, with the MCC5500, the squawk happens once and shuts off automatically. [See above for a rant on how useless that is]

So in other words, we got it to work without the MCC5500, but since our emergency default is Zone 1 Ch 1, we can't get it to activate without being acknowledged.

Hope I'm being clear but not redundant.



I do not have a MCC5500 to test this but what is your "Audible Emergency beacon" set at? Have you tried setting it to 2 seconds, see if it keeps sounding? This feature is not a transmit feature to the console and it shouldn't reset. Hope you get your issue resolved.
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Re: TPS Signaling - FDNY type of signaling

Postby 123 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:47 pm

Pj wrote:(I skipped a bit of the above, so hopefully this is somewhat accurate for the question).

If the EMER is acknoledge by the console, this its done its job. Otherwise the radio will continue with its programmed polite and impolite retries until the EMER is ack'd.

Unless you need more ID's than what MDC1200 can provide you, there isn't much your going to gain with TPS. As Alex as said, all the FDNY option does is change some of the audio alerts heard thru the radio speaker while used with TPS. The TPS signalling sounds like a MDC DOS squawk and activating the EMER button transmits the EMER packet, but also turns the radio into a PASS device. I'll try to grab an audio clip of it this weekend.

I haven't played with TPS signalling with a P25 system, or a console that would/could support it. If your using P25, then chances are your not going to be using TPS signalling. If your using TPS on a conventional system - chances are your not going to be decoding the datapacket (maybe if your hardware supports mixed mode?)

Just rambling here. In short - on the FIREGROUND if you need the ID's and your going to have someone babysit a radio display, MDC should work just fine.



I have a Quantar repeater with XTL-5000's,XTS-3000,5000's, etc. TPS works fine on P25
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Re: TPS Signaling - FDNY type of signaling

Postby jbella » Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:03 am

123 wrote:I do not have a MCC5500 to test this but what is your "Audible Emergency beacon" set at? Have you tried setting it to 2 seconds, see if it keeps sounding? This feature is not a transmit feature to the console and it shouldn't reset. Hope you get your issue resolved.




Yes, that was changed to different settings and it continued to automatically reset itself.

At least somebody understood what I was saying.

And no it was never resolved.

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Re: TPS Signaling - FDNY type of signaling

Postby KDN » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:04 am

Is it possible for a Gold Elite to decode the TPS Signalling on a conventional channel or can they only be decoded on an XTS/XTL?

Thanks!


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