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XTS 5K ADP and DES-XL ???

This forum is dedicated to discussions pertaining specifically to the Motorola ASTRO line of radios (those that use VSELP/IMBE/AMBE), including using digital modulation, digital programming, FlashPort upgrades, etc. If you have general questions please use the General or Programming forums.

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otter9309
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XTS 5K ADP and DES-XL ???

Postby otter9309 » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:06 pm

I have a number of 5K's that tend to roam a large area these radios need to have both ADP and DES-XL encryption. I currently have both algo's in a few radios, but I can not select ADP for 1 ch and DES for another. This is because ADP is a SW option and DES is hardware. I have seen a module with both types of encryption, but can you select what you want for each ch? Also how does ADP hardware load keys? Is it done through the SW or is a keyloader used.

TIA
S.

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Pj
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Re: XTS 5K ADP and DES-XL ???

Postby Pj » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:33 pm

My understanding is that its software or hardware encryption (IIRC from CPS). If you need ADP and DES, you need the combo hardware module. ADP will also only work on a digital channel (no analog!)

Going the hardware route, you will need a KVL3000+ to load the ADP keys. If you stick with software ADP only via the flash option, you can load keys via CPS.
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MattSR
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Re: XTS 5K ADP and DES-XL ???

Postby MattSR » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:34 pm

ADP is software AND hardware.

If you have any hardware encryption (like DES-XL) Then you need to have hardware ADP installed as well.

Software ADP loads keys through CPS. Hardware ADP requires an appropriately flashed KVL3000+.

Hope this helps.

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Re: XTS 5K ADP and DES-XL ???

Postby Pj » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:38 pm

To clarify, ADP can be in a radio without a hardware module - if ADP is in the radio's flashcode.

If you need more than one algo, then you have to go the hardware route.
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otter9309
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Re: XTS 5K ADP and DES-XL ???

Postby otter9309 » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:28 am

Thanks for the help.

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Elroy Jetson
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Re: XTS 5K ADP and DES-XL ???

Postby Elroy Jetson » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:35 am

Pj wrote:My understanding is that its software or hardware encryption (IIRC from CPS). If you need ADP and DES, you need the combo hardware module. ADP will also only work on a digital channel (no analog!)



Not precisely true. My 5K has ADP and it is selectable on non-digital channels.

The configuration: RX to mixed mode. TX to non-astro. Secure to Astro, key strapping to select, selecting hardware keys.

Yes, it works.

Elroy

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Josh
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Re: XTS 5K ADP and DES-XL ???

Postby Josh » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:55 am

Elroy Jetson wrote:
Pj wrote:My understanding is that its software or hardware encryption (IIRC from CPS). If you need ADP and DES, you need the combo hardware module. ADP will also only work on a digital channel (no analog!)



Not precisely true. My 5K has ADP and it is selectable on non-digital channels.

The configuration: RX to mixed mode. TX to non-astro. Secure to Astro, key strapping to select, selecting hardware keys.

Yes, it works.

Elroy


Yes it does work, but the radio is then transmitting in digital.

It's not like DES-XL where you can do it either over analog or digital, but both sound different and the analog DES has its range limitations.

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Elroy Jetson
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Re: XTS 5K ADP and DES-XL ???

Postby Elroy Jetson » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:28 pm

Now we're splitting hairs. Secure transmissions (DVP, DES, DVP-XL, DES-XL) are by definition digital transmissions. They're not transmitted within the
context of a P25 CAI transmission scheme, but they are digital, nonetheless.



Elroy

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Pj
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Re: XTS 5K ADP and DES-XL ???

Postby Pj » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:51 pm

So that people who read this later do not get confused...

ADP cannot work in analog like DES, DVP and all the varients. ADP only works when the radio is speaking ASTRO (aka IMBE). Same is true for AES. 5epending on the radio model and configuration you will get a bonk sound or "illegal key" message.

A good experiment is to take two identical radios, but one with AES (or ADP) and try to receive a transmission from a radio with ADP (or AES) with another algo installed. Do it in analog with ADP/AES and you wil find that radio #2 will not be transmitting ADP/AES but with the other algo considering Elroys example.

In short ADP and AES is not supported for analog transmissions.
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Re: XTS 5K ADP and DES-XL ???

Postby akardam » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:46 pm

Elroy Jetson wrote:Now we're splitting hairs.

No, that's pretty much just you.

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Re: XTS 5K ADP and DES-XL ???

Postby Elroy Jetson » Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:00 pm

akardam wrote:
Elroy Jetson wrote:Now we're splitting hairs.

No, that's pretty much just you.



I'd expect that kind of snippy comment from you. How old are you, anyway?


Elroy

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Re: XTS 5K ADP and DES-XL ???

Postby MattSR » Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:05 pm

Pj wrote:So that people who read this later do not get confused...


Then..

Pj wrote:A good experiment is to take two identical radios, but one with AES (or ADP) and try to receive a transmission from a radio with ADP (or AES) with another algo installed. Do it in analog with ADP/AES and you wil find that radio #2 will not be transmitting ADP/AES but with the other algo considering Elroys example.


I wasn't confused until I read that!

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Re: XTS 5K ADP and DES-XL ???

Postby MattSR » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:05 pm

Pj - When you try to tx using ADP/AES on an analog channel, the radio *will* flick into P25 mode..

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Re: XTS 5K ADP and DES-XL ???

Postby Pj » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:21 pm

Yup, exactly. Reading elroys post it seemed like he was saying that ADP would work in analog.
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Josh
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Re: XTS 5K ADP and DES-XL ???

Postby Josh » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:27 pm

Pj wrote:Yup, exactly. Reading elroys post it seemed like he was saying that ADP would work in analog.


I'm a fan of this type of operation. It's almost like have an analog/digital switch, but the digital is crypto. Too bad. Too bad there isn't a key (even 000000000) that would be like a blank key and transmit clear audio.

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Elroy Jetson
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Re: XTS 5K ADP and DES-XL ???

Postby Elroy Jetson » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:40 pm

It does allow you to have ADP enabled while that channel is able to receive and transmit in the clear in analog mode. Engage the encryption feature and you
will still be able to receive in analog mode OR an ADP-encrypted signal, which is carried on a CAI framework.

Though ADP is digital based, the point is that you can use it on a channel that is not exclusively digital. That's what I'm getting at.


Elroy

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motorola_otaku
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Re: XTS 5K ADP and DES-XL ???

Postby motorola_otaku » Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:36 am

Elroy Jetson wrote:Though ADP is digital based, the point is that you can use it on a channel that is not exclusively digital. That's what I'm getting at.

Heck, I've been doing that with DES-XL and IMBE-flashed Astro Sabers for years now. Set a channel to mixed-mode receive and analog TX, and with crypto installed and enabled it forces you to "ASTRO" for the secure type, meaning DES-encrypted P25. It's by no means exclusive to ADP or the Astro25 line.
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