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APX in UHF and FPP

This forum is dedicated to discussions pertaining specifically to the Motorola ASTRO line of radios (those that use VSELP/IMBE/AMBE), including using digital modulation, digital programming, FlashPort upgrades, etc. If you have general questions please use the General or Programming forums.

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otter9309
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APX in UHF and FPP

Postby otter9309 » Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:49 pm

Found this today in the APX SW.

THE POSSIBLE SYSTEM OPTIONS INCLUDE:

Portable

H38 SmartZone Systems Operation

H37 SmartNet Systems Operation

Q806 ASTRO Digital Operation

Q173 SmartZone OmniLink Multizone Operation

Q361 ASTRO 25 9600 Baud Trunking Systems Operation

G996 Over the Air Provisioning

Q498 OTAR With Multikey

H869 Encryption Multikey Operation

Q52 Federal Government Front Panel Programming Enhancement

Q53 FCC Conventional Front Panel Programming


QA00569 7 / 800 MHz Primary Band

QA00570 VHF Primary Band

QA00571 UHF Range 1 Primary Band

QA00572 UHF Range 2 Primary Band


QA00573 7 / 800 MHz Secondary Band

QA00574 VHF Secondary Band

QA00575 UHF Range 1 Secondary Band

QA00576 UHF Range 2 Secondary Band


QA00579 Enable Dual Band Operation

QA00580 TDMA Operation

QA00782 GPS Activation

Q387 Conventional Voting Scan

Q947 Packet Data Interface

QA00577 Front Display and Full Keypad

Q445 Fireground Accountability Software

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Pj
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Re: APX in UHF and FPP

Postby Pj » Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:51 pm

FPP is a known option. Someone posted a part number for the dongle for the FCC option. UHF is "in the works". The Moto guy at the last show didn't have a date estimate, other than not too much longer.
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Re: APX in UHF and FPP

Postby Pj » Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:08 pm

Here is some of the info that I have gathered thus far:

[quote]This is a work in progress.

The "codename" for this line appears to be "Mackinaw"

APX7000 accessories/batteries as of 6/1/2009. Although the radio is not released yet, these items may change, but will serve as a basis should "unknown" part numbers show up later or disappear. Prices are based on a contract and do not reflect what your pricing may be.

General Information
Operating Modes

ASTRO Digital APX 7000 Radio Models are capable of operating in four different voice communication modes:

Normal Analog (clear voice)
3.6KB ASTRO Digital (both clear and coded voice)
9.6 KB ASTRO 25 Digital (both Clear and Coded voice)
9.6KB 12.5kHz 2 slot digital TDMA (both clear and coded voice).
Will be capable of APCO25 Phase 2 functionality in future software releases.


MULTI BAND/SINGLE BAND

APX 7000 meets P25 public safety specifications for seamless multi-agency collaboration by offering the option to operate in two separate band configurations. APX 7000 capable of operating in 700MHz, 800MHz & VHF* and can act as 2 XTS radios in one; enabling instant, interoperable communications for improved coordination, response, and first responder safety. Public safety officials can now reduce the amount of equipment responders must carry and maintain.

*additional dual band combinations will be available in the future with the rollout of UHF Range 1 and 2

TDMA

FDMA (Frequency Division Multiple Access) is a proven technology that is widely used today in radio systems and is part of APCO 25 Project 25 Phase 1 standard. FDMA carries one call per channel. TDMA (Time Division Multiple Access) will be part of P25 Phase 2 standard and provides double the voice capacity as 2 calls can share 1 channel. Customers can add more users to their systems without the need of additional frequencies or infrastructure. The APX radios support both P25 Phase 1 and TDMA technologies seamlessly. Using Motorola's unique Dynamic Dual Mode (DDM) capability, the radios dynamically switch between FDMA and TDMA without the user having to change channels. This provides interoperability on demand with existing and future networks.

FLASHport AFTERMARKET UPGRADES

The ASTRO Digital APX 7000 Portable Series Radios are part of the FLASHport Program. This means that ASTRO Digital APX 7000 hardware models can be loaded with different software packages that provide the features and functionalities that our customers require.

System Enhancement Options can be loaded at the time of radio purchase or at a later date through the use of software field upgrades (a USB cable is required for all software upgrades.) The ASTRO Digital APX 7000 portable can be upgraded electronically in the field with new features in the current system or to new systems operation (contingent upon remaining within the same RF sub-band) by ordering upgrade kits.

APX7000 Top Display: 8 Character display top, 96 modes
APX7000 Dual Display: 14 Character front, 8 top, 1250 modes

CHANNEL SPACING

There are no maximum frequency separation conditions that must be adhered to on the APX 7000 portable series. Separation of frequencies can be as wide as the allowable band per radio model with no degradation of any performance specifications. If an incorrect antenna is used, degraded performance may be experienced.

ZONED OPERATION

This option converts MODE-ONLY ASTRO Digital APX 7000 portables to Zone Operation radios.

For Top Display radios, a maximum of 16 channels (conventional RX and TX pairs or trunking talkgroups) can be placed into a zone. There is a maximum of six zones (96 modes) when zone selection operation is programmed on the 3 position toggle switch and the Zone Bank feature is programmed on a button. The Zone Bank feature allows the 3 position toggle switch to access zones 1-3 or 4-6.

For the Dual Display radios there is a maximum of 50 zones, 625 channels per zone with the overall maximum of 1250 modes. The zones and channels can be accessed with the same method as the Top Display radio. In addition, the Dual Display radio provides "ZONE" and "CHAN" menus that allows access to zones and channels not accessible via the switches.

PROJECT 25 ENCRYPTION

The mode of operation is programmed on a channel-by-channel basis. With the coded/clear switch set to the clear mode, the ASTRO Digital APX7000 radio is capable of transmitting clear analog voice or clear (unencrypted) ASTRO Digital voice, depending on the channel programming. With the coded/clear switch set to the coded mode, the ASTRO Digital APX 7000 radio will transmit ASTRO Digital encryption depending on the channel programming. ASTRO Digital encryption provides secure communications. ASTRO Digital Encryption (operation in encrypted mode while also operation in 3.6KB or 9.6KB and TDMA ASTRO mode) is capable of XL type encryptions; ASTRO Digital Encryptions does not operate with non-XL encryptions.

An encryption option is not required for either clear analog operation or clear ASTRO Digital operation. Encryption can be ordered with the ASTRO Digital APX 7000 radio either as a factory installed option or separate from the radio for later field installation. ASTRO Digital APX 7000 radio functions include selected ASTRO digital signaling and digital speech coding.

When ordering any of the Encryption Algorithms:

The DES-OFB and AES encryption algorithms offered are compliant with digital Project 25 standards and does not support analog encryption operation.
Requires the ASTRO Digital CAI (Q806) to operate the DES-OFB and AES encryption.
If ordering a Dual Encryption:

The non-OFB encryption (XL versions) can be operated in either analog , or CAI digital mode, but will not be Project 25 compliant.
Requires the Multikey (H869).
When used in CAI mode, the non-OFB Encryption will not be Project 25 compliant.

Encryption Algorithms can be ordered later via Flash Port.

FM INFORMATION

Only the APX 7000 Top Display when properly equipped with options Q393BW OR QA00581AA are Factory Mutual (FM/CSA) Approved as intrinsically safe for use in Div 1, Class I , Groups C,D, Class II groups E, F, G, Class III Div 2, Class I A, B,C,D.


ASTRO Text Messaging Service

ASTRO Text Messaging Service will be available on APX 7000 Dual Display Portable radios. Text Messaging Service (TMS) allows subscriber users to send and receive text messages to other subscribers or dispatch operators. Users can select messages and addresses from a predefined list or enter freeform text messages and addresses via the keypad. Text Messaging Service is available on ASTRO P25 Conventional and Trunked IV&D Systems and Subscribers.

Text Message is NOT supported on APX 7000 Top Display Portable radios.





Ordering ASTRO Text Messaging for APX 7000 Portable Requires:

APX 7000 Dual Display

ASTRO Digital CAI Operation (Q806)

SmartZone Operation (H38)

ASTRO Project 25 Trunking Software (Q361)

Packet Data Interface (Q947)

P25 Conventional

NOTE: There is no specific option to order for the Text Messaging Service on the subscribers as the functionality is included in the Packet Data option.

Outdoor Personnel Location Global Positioning Satellite (GPS) Feature

The personnel outdoor location tracking GPS feature enables a dispatcher the ability to locate on-foot patrols and out of the vehicle officers who are involved in life threatening situations. The radio user’s GPS position information is sent over the ASTRO 25 Integrated Voice & Data (IV&D) network and is delivered to the dispatch operator using a third party mapping display application at the dispatch center (Mapping Application is not yet available through Motorola at this time, however an Application Developers Tool Kit is available for 3rd party vendors to use to modify existing applications. See link below for more details.) On the Dual Display model only it is possible to the user to determine their own location (latitude/longitude) through the use of the location menu.

During normal operation the radio battery capacity will be reduced by 10% to 16%.

Ordering GPS for APX 7000 Portable Requires:

Enable Internal GPS Operation (QA00782)
Packet Data Interface (Q947)
Antenna (Standard or Stubby GPS Antenna

VHF SELF-QUIETING SPURS

Frequencies (MHz) Source
138.6625MHz multiple of LCD color display clock
149.325MHz multiple of LCD color display clock
150.725MHz multiple of LCD color display clock
159.9875MHz multiple of LCD color display clock
165.325MHz multiple of LCD color display clock
168.000MHz multiple of LCD color display clock
170.6624MHz multiple of LCD color display clock
167.4750 MHz multiple of 16.8MHz reference oscillator
150.0125 MHz multiple of LCD color display clock

Note: There are no self-quieting spurs for 700/800 MHz.

Models
APX7000 DIGITAL PORTABLE RADIO H97TGD9PW1_N $2,632.00

Frequency Band
ADD: 7/800MHZ PRIMARY BAND QA00569 $0.00
Required to Choose One Primary Band.
ADD: VHF PRIMARY BAND QA00570 $0.00
Required to Choose One Primary Band.
ADD: 7/800MHZ SECONDARY BAND QA00573 $0.00
Required to Choose One Secondary Band.
ADD: VHF SECONDARY BAND QA00574 $0.00

Operating
ADD: LARGE COLOR DISPLAY AND FULL KEYPAD QA00577 $500.00
This option upgrades the radio to the Dual Display version. Provides: large, color display and full alpha-numeric, navigation, and programmable keypad.
ADD: ENABLE DUAL BAND OPERATION QA00579 $1,000.00
Required to Enable Dual Band Operation.

Operation Mode
ADD: ANALOG OPERATION Q241 $0.00
ADD: ASTRO DIGITAL CAI OPERATION Q806 $515.00

System Enhancement Software
ADD: CONVENTIONAL OPERATION H35 $800.00
ADD: SMARTNET OPERATION H37 $1,200.00
ADD: SMARTZONE OPERATION H38 $1,500.00
ADD: SMARTZONE OMNILINK (NON-P25) Q173 $200.00
ONLY compatible with H38 SmartZone and Q806 Digital Operation (required for 3600 baud only trunked systems.) Auto roaming across zones, zone registration, trespass protection, over the air site alias, 32 preferred sites, FastStart and AllStart Call Set-up.
ADD: P25 9600 BAUD TRUNKING Q361 $300.00
MUST also order H38 & Q806. INCLUDED at "NO Charge" Q173-OminLink.
ADD: TDMA OPERATION QA00580 $400.00

Systems Enhancement Options
ADD: PROGRAMMING OVER P25 (OTAP) G996 $100.00
POP25 requires AES encryption for ASTRO Conventional operation. Must have IV&D (Q947) enabled. To do in field POP25 programming must use Advanced System Key (DVN4046A)
ADD: MULTICAST VOTING SCAN Q387 $200.00
ADD: RADIO PACKET DATA Q947 $200.00
This option is only capable of being used on P25 Digital Conventional and 9600 Trunking Systems. This option is required for IV & D operation.
ADD: ENABLE INTERNAL GPS OPERATION QA00782 $100.00

Algorithm Options
ADD: TACTICAL REKEY WITH MULTIKEY H04 $500.00
Must order IV&D (Q947)
ENH: DVP-XL ENCRYPTION H797 $487.00
ENH: MULTIKEY H869 $330.00
ENH: AES/DES,DES-XL,DES-OFB Q15 $799.00
NOT compatible with Q629 or Q625. Must order multikey if you want to use both algorithms.
ENH: ASTRO P25 OTAR W/ MULTIKEY Q498 $740.00
ENH: DES,DES-XL,DES-OFB ENCRYPTION Q625 $599.00
ENH: AES ENCRYPTION Q629 $475.00

Antenna
DEL: DELETE ANTENNA H112JT ($10.00)
Deletes Standard Antenna
ALT: GPS STUBBY ANTENNA (NAG4000A) QA00785 $18.00
Deletes Standard Antenna and ADDS GPS ONLY antenna.
ALT: DUAL BAND 7/800 VHF (136-174MHZ) GPS ANTENNA (NAR6591A) QA00787 $65.00

Battery
DEL: DELETE BATTERY (NNTN7038) H207 ($47.00)
The option will delete the LiIon 2900mAh standard battery
ALT: NIMH IMPRES 2100MAH FM (NNTN7037) H335 $78.00
ALT: NIMH IMPRES 2000 MAH FM (NNTN7036) Q393 $95.00
Only the APX 7000 Top Display when properly equipped with this option are Factory Mutual
ALT: NIMH IMPRES 2000 MAH FM DELTA T (NNTN7035) QA00581 $100.00
Only the APX 7000 Top Display when properly equipped with this option are Factory Mutual

Belt Clip(s)
DEL: DELETE BELT CLIP/BASIC CARRY HOLDER H301 ($10.00)
This option deletes the standard belt clip that ships with the Top Display model -or- deletes the standard univeral carry holder that ships with the Dual Display model.
ALT: BASIC CARRY HOLDER (PMLN5331) QA00779 $29.00
This carry holder ships standard with the Dual Display model. It is an alternative to the 2.5" Belt Clip (NTN8266)that ships standard with the Top Display model.
ADD: BELT CLIP 3.0" (HLN6875) QA01222 $12.00

Ruggedized Housing
ENH: SUBMERSIBLE (DELTA T) H499 $250.00
Delta T (2M/2Hrs) Radio comes standard with IP67(1m/30 min). Radio Ships Standard with NIMH IMPRES 2000 mAh FM Delta T battery (NNTN7035)

Service Options
ENH: 3 YEARS SVC WARRANTY GA00232 $150.00
ENH: 1 YEAR SVC WARRANTY Q57 $56.00
ENH: 2 YEARS SVC WARRANTY Q58 $102.00

Manual(s)
DEL: USER GUIDE CD QA01274 $0.00
This deletes the user guide CD that ships standard with the radio.

Packaging
ADD: SINGLE UNIT PACKAGING H842 $0.00
Orders ship in Sngle Unit Boxes.

Test Results
ADD: TEST RESULTS/RATED AUDIO PRINTOUT H799 $10.00

Software
ASTRO DIGITAL APX PORTABLE CPS RVN5224A $265.00

-------------------------------------------------------

FPP
NNTN7526 APX7000 FPP HW KEY (DONGLE)

Antenna's
NAF5085A 700/800 GPS $33.75
NAG4000A Mackinaw GPS Antenna $13.50
NAR6591A VHF (150-174/700/800) GPS $56.25
PMAF4002A APX7000 700/800 PSM Antenna $9.00

Batteries
NNTN7035A BATT IMP FM R NIMH 2000M 2200T $110.25
NNTN7036A BATT IMP FM IP67 NIMH 2000M 2200T $106.50
NNTN7037A BATT IMP STD IP67 NIMH 2100M 2300T $93.75
NNTN7038A BATT IMP STD IP67 LIION 2900M 3100T $105.00
NNTN7573A BATT IMP STD R NIMH 2100M 2300T $97.50

Belt Clips
HLN6875A BELT CLIP 3 INCH $9.00
NTN8266B BELT CLIP KIT/Carry Case Accessory 2.25" Standard Removable Belt Clip $9.00

Belt Loops
PMLN5407A 2.5" REPLACEMENT SWIVEL BELT LOOP $9.00
PMLN5408A 2.75" REPLACEMENT SWIVEL BELT LOOP $9.00
PMLN5409A 3" REPLACEMENT SWIVEL BELT LOOP $9.00

Cables
WPLN6904A KEYLOAD CABLE FOR APX7000 $82.50
WPLN6905A APX7000 KEYLOAD RS-232 CABLE $116.25

Carrying Cases
4200865599 1.75" Wide Black Belt $15.00
NTN5243A Shoulder Carry Strap $17.25
PMLN5322A NYLON CASE 3 FIX BL 2500MAH $35.25
PMLN5323A LEATHER CASE 3" FIX BL 2500MAH ? $50.25
PMLN5324A LEATHER CASE 2.75" SWL BL 2500MAH ? $48.75
PMLN5328A NYLON CASE 3" FIX BL 2100MAH ? $36.75
PMLN5329A LEATHER CASE 3" FIX BL 2100MAH ? $51.75
PMLN5330A LEATHER CASE 2.75" SWL BL 2100MAH ? $50.25
PMLN5331A MACKINAW BASIC CARRY HOLDER $21.75

Chargers
NNTN7065A IMPRES CHG MU MACKINAW US/NA/CA/LA $591.00
NNTN7073A IMPRES CG MUD MACKINAW US/NA/CA/LA $1012.50
NNTN7586A CHR IMP DUC EXT US/NA/CA/LA $262.50
WPLN7080A IMPRES CG SU APX7000 US/NA/CA/LA $93.75

Earpieces
AARLN4885B RECEIVE ONLY EARBUD FOR REM SPK MIC $18.75
PMLN4620A D-Shell Receive Only Earpiece $14.25
These receive only earpieces plug into the PMMN4024 and PMMN4025 Remote Speaker Microphones and allow the user to receive communications discretely. D-SHELL RX-ONLY EARPIECE(3.5MM)
RLN4760A RT CSTM EARPC SZ:SM USED W/NTN8371A $15.38
Small Custom Earpiece, right ear
The clear comfortable earpiece forms to the inside of your ear and is perfect for low noise environments. Compatible with the NTN8371A, clear acoustic tube assembly, and most surveillance kits (1, 2 and 3 wire). This earpiece is made of easy-to-clean chemically inert, hypo-allergenic material. The 3 required items for this product are:
• Clear Comfortable Earpiece
• Clear Acoustic Tube Assembly (NTN8371A)
• Surveillance Kit

RLN4761A Medium Custom Earpiece, right ear $15.38
RLN4762A Large Custom Earpiece, right ear $15.38
RLN4763A Small Custom Earpiece, left ear $15.38
RLN4764A Medium Custom Earpiece, left ear $15.38
RLN4765A Large Custom Earpiece, left ear $15.38
RLN4941A REC ONLY EARPIECE W/TRANSLUCET TUBE $43.50
WADN4190B EAR RCVR W/COIL CBL&3.5MM PLUG $32.25

Headsets
PMLN5275A HEAVY DUTY HEADSET PMLN5275A $363.75
RMN5058A Lightweight Headset CORE L/W HEADSET $74.25

Microphone Speaker
PMMN4059A PSM IP54 WITH 3.5MM JACK RX 18" $123.00
PMMN4060A PSM IP54 WITH 3.5MM JACK RX 24" $123.00
PMMN4061A PSM IP54 WITH 3.5MM JACK RX 30" $123.00
PMMN4062A PLUS RSM NC IP54 3.5MM JACK RX $80.25

User Guides
PMLN5335 APX7000 cdrom portable UG's $15.00
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VE9MP
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Re: APX in UHF and FPP

Postby VE9MP » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:39 am

Does anyone have any codeplugs, the software doesnt seem to come with any sample codeplugs?
ve9mp@yahoo.ca
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"I can trip some repeaters in Maine, but I'm not getting any audio into it, is there some type of tone frequency I use? If so do you know what one is for Maine?" - The SMT Machine

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Re: APX in UHF and FPP

Postby Jason » Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:25 pm

FWIW, The APX accy connector is the same as the TRBO line. Programming cable/mics/etc are interchangeable.

Jason
Posts: 800
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Re: APX in UHF and FPP

Postby Jason » Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:25 pm

VE9MP wrote:Does anyone have any codeplugs, the software doesnt seem to come with any sample codeplugs?
ve9mp@yahoo.ca


of course not. /\/\ hasnt done that in YEARS.

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Pj
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What radios do you own?: X9000 thru APX

Re: APX in UHF and FPP

Postby Pj » Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:36 pm

Updated the info above. Enjoy!
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Re: APX in UHF and FPP

Postby MT2000 man » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:28 pm

Wow, if I'm reading that correctly, for a "fully loaded" APX, your talking some MAJOR $$$$$$ !!! (Although, most of us already knew that anyway :lol: )

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Elroy Jetson
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Re: APX in UHF and FPP

Postby Elroy Jetson » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:15 pm

Holy crap, you can top ten grand per radio!

Motorola, YOU ARE INSANE.

Not only that, but for all that you can't match Harris, Thales, and Racal and put VHF, UHF, and 700/800 in the SAME radio?

Consider my mind offically BOGGLED.


All of Motorola's competitors will have a major league field day with this!


The APX could be an incredible radio but not having all bands in a single radio, and with the cost being far over the borderline of rampaging
stupidity, this is likely not to end well for Motorola.

Contract discounts better be incredible, and I mean, half off or more!

Elroy

MattSR
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Re: APX in UHF and FPP

Postby MattSR » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:54 pm

When will see Whoreflashed ones for sale?

:lol:

akardam
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Re: APX in UHF and FPP

Postby akardam » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:16 pm

Elroy Jetson wrote:Holy crap, you can top ten grand per radio!

Or you could spend $12-13,000 on two XTS 5000's. Either way you're laying down some cash. And either way it's a free country, and you can spend your money where you wish.

However, if you're comparing apples to apples, a fully loaded 5k M3 7/800 with P25 trunking, OTAP, packet, and fireground will run you about $300 less than a comparably equipped single-band APX7000. Closer to $40 less if you add a GPS mic to the 5k and the GPS option to the APX. The same APX configured with dual band VHF and 7/800 (the only currently supported bands) will run you a tad under 7500. Not too shabby compared to the aforementioned two 5k's.

Consider also that Motorola and EFJ are currently your only choices for legacy SmartNet/SmartZone subscribers, and since EFJ doesn't yet have a multi-band offering, the APX may look pretty attractive to current Motorola customers.

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Pj
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Re: APX in UHF and FPP

Postby Pj » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:50 am

Aside from Moto specific features, a Liberty or Unity will feature V-8 with 9600 trunking, GPS etc for less. In addiotion the door is open to those vendors for other trunking formats (non-Moto) that Moto will most likely not ever to offer.

From my discussions with the APX guy at the last show, the radio is aimed at the TDMA and statewide 9600 markets more than anything (states/systems that use VHF and 800 mixed in, like AK and WY).

Either way most department budgets will limit radio purchases of the above products to a handful of them and will sit on a shelf and not be used day to day. 2-3k for a XTS (times) x personell or 4k+ (times) each person. Until pricing comes down...
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Re: APX in UHF and FPP

Postby rc50won » Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:47 am

It will be interesting to see what the "real" contract prices will be. I suspect that real prices will be similar or a tad above current contract XTS pricing. Only time will tell. Marshall

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Pj
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Re: APX in UHF and FPP

Postby Pj » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:01 am

I little birdie a few weeks ago told me max discount is 10% off the prices above. Of course if m wants a nice sweet contract pricing like that is out the window
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techtonics
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Re: APX in UHF and FPP

Postby techtonics » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:08 am

Update for you all, yesterday i held a beta radio, VHF/UHF with integrated GPS nice unit!

CTAMontrose
was grem467
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Re: APX in UHF and FPP

Postby CTAMontrose » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:12 am

Jason wrote:of course not. /\/\ hasnt done that in YEARS.



not true, the mototrbo CPS comes with sample codeplugs for mobiles, portables and the repeaters.

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N4DES
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Re: APX in UHF and FPP

Postby N4DES » Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:33 pm

As does quantar CPS.

ads47
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Re: APX in UHF and FPP

Postby ads47 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:22 pm

Well the radios are on the street in significant numbers now. The multiband GPS antenna looks almost cartoonish on the radio. Take that with the long battery and put in a turn-out coat or wear it on your hip and its very bothersome and TOO big. The antenna alone would be a deal breaker for alot of users since its huge and not very flexible at all...



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