A picture is worth a thousand words

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KG4LHQ
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A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by KG4LHQ »

Another local fire departments vehicle repeater ( which isn't installed correctly ) and the vehicle repeaters antenna was installed today. This is done by the 50 mile away MOTO dealer.

I'll let the picture blow your minds.... This was not authorized by anyone on the fire department and the Chief is very PISSED and is considering his options reference the damage to the body of the truck.

Kudos to them for atleast putting a grommet to protect the coax LOL

What do you think?

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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by jmr3865 »

As the antenna itself is not really functional at the location, The tech probably tried to keep everything within the body of the truck as it is a Brush Truck and didnt want the antenna to break off.
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mikegilbert
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by mikegilbert »

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Bill_G
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by Bill_G »

Yeah - that's a little retarded. Is there room on the roof, or is it an antenna farm already?

I guess you'll have to wait for the shop to respond to why they didn't go over the install with someone first.

(Not so) Funny story - back in the early 80's at my first radio job, this school bus mechanic put an X with a marker on the hood of the supervisor's car. Not on the truck deck - the engine hood - of a new Chevy sedan. I asked him several times if he was sure, and I even got a confirmation from his boss. They wanted a base loaded low band antenna in the middle of the hood. That's where I put it. And then when the district supervisor wanted it moved, my boss had to argue with them about who was going to pay for the hole. The mechanics feigned ignorance. There are some terrible people in this world. It took a while to live that one down.
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by Jim202 »

It is clear that the radio tech that did that installation has never had a a mentor to teach him anything about radio propagation. My guess would also be that he is fairly new to the work.

I would be ashamed to even be associated with an installed antenna in that location. Maybe someone should take the radio tech aside and have a talk about the birds and the electrons about how they behave and propagate through the atmosphere. We all have to learn somehow and it is much easier to have a mentor to lead the way.

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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by KG4LHQ »

Guy has been around for years. Im willing to bet his high ups at the shop does not know of this shady work. I am now in the process of yanking all the mistuned filters and getting them retuned and installing them correctly.
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FireCpt809
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by FireCpt809 »

I see a bill from a body shop in the future for that radio dealer..
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by MSS-Dave »

Jim202 wrote:It is clear that the radio tech that did that installation has never had a a mentor to teach him anything about radio propagation. My guess would also be that he is fairly new to the work.

I would be ashamed to even be associated with an installed antenna in that location. Maybe someone should take the radio tech aside and have a talk about the birds and the electrons about how they behave and propagate through the atmosphere. We all have to learn somehow and it is much easier to have a mentor to lead the way.

Jim
Hey Jim...

I'm sure you meant to use the term "radio tech" loosely right? :lol:
KG4LHQ
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by KG4LHQ »

He is really considering his options and will probably lead to that.
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by com501 »

Install the extended mast exposed dipole fire truck antenna in that location, replace the RG58 with the RG59 it comes with, and call it good!
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HLA
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by HLA »

regardless of how to fix the problem in the future, If that antennae is on a working radio right now i'd put some kind of sleeve over it so it can't ground out on the body of the truck or any of the gear. Plus if anyone touches it while it's transmitting they can get burned from it.
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by Will »

FireCpt809 wrote:I see a bill from a body shop in the future for that radio dealer..
Two Tek screws and the antenna was never cut to the freq used.........

PISS POOR work, they need to be fired permanently.
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by com501 »

HLA wrote:regardless of how to fix the problem in the future, If that antennae is on a working radio right now i'd put some kind of sleeve over it so it can't ground out on the body of the truck or any of the gear. Plus if anyone touches it while it's transmitting they can get burned from it.
Not to mention it doesn't conform to exposure guidelines, unless its a very low power radio.
KG4LHQ
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by KG4LHQ »

It is for the 2 watt vehicle in band repeater which by the way isnt installed correctly.
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by Jim202 »

KG4LHQ wrote:It is for the 2 watt vehicle in band repeater which by the way isnt installed correctly.
Guess you need to train the truck driver that he needs to make sure the drivers side of the truck always points toward the direction you will use the portables on the vehicle repeater.

Bet the SWR stinks with this install.

Jim
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train_radio_guy
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by train_radio_guy »

Back in the day, one of the local radio shops had the contract for State Police. When mounting a racking system in the trunk, to accommodate several 100 watt radio decks, the radio tech managed to drill right into the gas tank, of a brand new Ford Crown Vic. Luckily, there was very little gas in the tank, and there was no fire.

The radio shop paid the bill, for the local Ford Dealer, to repair the damage, & replace the gas tank. The radio tech was removed from the service side of the business, and put in sales. :o

The following year they lost the contract. Can't imagine why? :lol:
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Bill_G
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by Bill_G »

train_radio_guy wrote:Back in the day, one of the local radio shops had the contract for State Police. When mounting a racking system in the trunk, to accommodate several 100 watt radio decks, the radio tech managed to drill right into the gas tank, of a brand new Ford Crown Vic. Luckily, there was very little gas in the tank, and there was no fire.

The radio shop paid the bill, for the local Ford Dealer, to repair the damage, & replace the gas tank. The radio tech was removed from the service side of the business, and put in sales. :o

The following year they lost the contract. Can't imagine why? :lol:
That was really easy to do with the tank mounted so close to the floor of the trunk in the raised area above the rear axle. We learned the hard way too on the first one we did. We also learned how to fab a frame system that attached to the seat back mounts. They really left you no place to put any screws in the Crown Vics. For taxis with remote mount radios and AVL systems, we built an aluminum panel that enclosed the driver side trunk fender cavity. That left the rest of the trunk space available for passenger belongings including folding wheelchairs while protecting the comm equipment in a tamper resistant box (emphasis on resistant, not tamper-proof).
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by KitN1MCC »

what an idiot. why not put a right angle up near the light bar and use a heavy duty 1/4 wave
motorola_otaku
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by motorola_otaku »

Bill_G wrote:
train_radio_guy wrote:Back in the day, one of the local radio shops had the contract for State Police. When mounting a racking system in the trunk, to accommodate several 100 watt radio decks, the radio tech managed to drill right into the gas tank, of a brand new Ford Crown Vic. Luckily, there was very little gas in the tank, and there was no fire.

The radio shop paid the bill, for the local Ford Dealer, to repair the damage, & replace the gas tank. The radio tech was removed from the service side of the business, and put in sales. :o

The following year they lost the contract. Can't imagine why? :lol:
That was really easy to do with the tank mounted so close to the floor of the trunk in the raised area above the rear axle. We learned the hard way too on the first one we did. We also learned how to fab a frame system that attached to the seat back mounts. They really left you no place to put any screws in the Crown Vics.
Don't forget the old B-body Caprices. I learned the old adage "measure twice, drill once" the hard way on my old '96, then a few years later learned the fine art of custom radio shelf fabrication.

Back on topic, a lot of school districts in my area do their school bus VHF antennas like that, albeit not quite so low on the side of the cab.
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train_radio_guy
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by train_radio_guy »

train_radio_guy wrote:Back in the day, one of the local radio shops had the contract for State Police. When mounting a racking system in the trunk, to accommodate several 100 watt radio decks, the radio tech managed to drill right into the gas tank, of a brand new Ford Crown Vic. Luckily, there was very little gas in the tank, and there was no fire.

The radio shop paid the bill, for the local Ford Dealer, to repair the damage, & replace the gas tank. The radio tech was removed from the service side of the business, and put in sales. :o

The following year they lost the contract. Can't imagine why? :lol:
The same radio shop had their trunking system, on the center (energized) tower of three; primarily used by a Commercial AM Radio Station. One of the iso-couplers was failing, and desperately needed to be replaced. In order to safely remove an iso-couple, from the feed line of a live tower, the broadcast transmitter is typically turned down to a minimum power, or shut off completely. The local radio station wanted $1,000 an hour, in compensation for lost revenue, during the 'down-time' of the transmitter.

The owners of the radio shop were not willing to pay the money, so they had one of the radio techs stand on a plastic pickle bucket, in order to be insulated from ground. :o Suffice to say this is not the OSHA approved method of removing iso-couplers, from a live tower. The tech completed the job, while exposing himself to 50,000 watts of RF, which resulted in swelling of his arm, and 1-2 days of lost work. Stupid doesn't begin describe this type of work, but unfortunately very typical for this particular radio shop. :x

It's truly amazing they're still in business!
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com501
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by com501 »

I never asked permission. We showed up at the site, since the site belonged to us, at 2am. When we were ready, we just downed their transmitters and disabled their STL so they couldn't turn it back on remotely. When we were done, we turned it back on.

Calls poured in the next day. Huh? Maybe it was a power glitch or something, we weren't up there.....
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by Bill_G »

com501 wrote:I never asked permission. We showed up at the site, since the site belonged to us, at 2am. When we were ready, we just downed their transmitters and disabled their STL so they couldn't turn it back on remotely. When we were done, we turned it back on.

Calls poured in the next day. Huh? Maybe it was a power glitch or something, we weren't up there.....
Same.
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by com501 »

Somebody once said: 'It's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission'.
jhooten
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by jhooten »

KitN1MCC wrote: use a heavy duty 1/4 wave

Because they bend or break the mount. The cheapie whips are soft enough they bend first and are easily straightened out several times before the work harden and snap. I got tired of replacing the 5/8th, even with a spring the drivers would find a low enough branch to rip them off, and Larsen NMOQs on our brush trucks after every fire and went back to the silver nut SS wire quarterwaves like the one in the pic and only had to replace them every year or so.
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by motorola_otaku »

jhooten wrote:
KitN1MCC wrote: use a heavy duty 1/4 wave

Because they bend or break the mount. The cheapie whips are soft enough they bend first and are easily straightened out several times before the work harden and snap. I got tired of replacing the 5/8th, even with a spring the drivers would find a low enough branch to rip them off, and Larsen NMOQs on our brush trucks after every fire and went back to the silver nut SS wire quarterwaves like the one in the pic and only had to replace them every year or so.
Take a heavy-duty mirror mount, remove the backing bracket, and use it as a L-bracket. You'll tear the rack off the roof of the truck before you break the mount (caution: this might actually occur if the obstruction is low enough and/or stout enough.)
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by jhooten »

One of the trucks had a 3/4" hole drilled in the SS trim in the middle of the light bar. They managed to rip the mount out of the panel a few times. The inmate in the sheet metal shop got bored between jobs an fabricated a few extras so I could swap them and bring him the damaged one for repair between jobs. That's how many times they managed to do it. That finally stopped when they ripped that light bar off the truck and it was replaced with a lo-pro LED.
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by train_radio_guy »

com501 wrote:I never asked permission. We showed up at the site, since the site belonged to us, at 2am. When we were ready, we just downed their transmitters and disabled their STL so they couldn't turn it back on remotely. When we were done, we turned it back on.

Calls poured in the next day. Huh? Maybe it was a power glitch or something, we weren't up there.....
I agree, but the owner of the radio shop was cheap, the radio tech was unfortunately, not terribly safety conscious, and the current chief engineer for the radio station didn't much care for either of them. This particular radio station's studios & broadcast transmitter(s) were at the same location, so it would have been hard to 'hide' our presence. They had door alarms on the radio huts, at the base of the tower, and there were only 2-3 individuals, that had access to the tower.

They had three loaded/energized towers running east to west, with the center tower - 200 feet taller, than the two adjacent to it. The top 200 feet of the center tower was electrically isolated from the bottom, and had a multitude of transmitters on it, including a FM Broadcast Dipole Array, Several 800 MHz Trunking Systems (G.E. & LTR), Several UHF Community Repeaters, & a VHF-Hi Amateur Repeater, just to name a few. The radio shop even leased one of the Subcarriers on the FM Broadcast Transmitter, for voice paging. Ironically, it was probably one of the more ‘secure’ paging systems in the area; at least to those unfamiliar with the subcarriers of FM Broadcast Transmitters.

While much of that has changed over the years, it still amazes me how safety for one's life, could be so blatantly disregarded.

- trg, 8)
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by tsunami_australia »

OK that is just bodgy. Even my wife who is not into radio laughed and said "WTF? why not use the really good real estate space up top for it" lol.
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by HLA »

just curious, nobody has mentioned what radio is being used with this that will go down to 2 watt?
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KG4LHQ
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by KG4LHQ »

That antenna is for the vehicle repeater SVR-200N tuned for 2 watts power output. The radio is a XPR4550
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by KE7JFF »

I have a friend who is a part time school bus driver. I once met up with him while he was on the job and noticed something. The bus he had was a International Bus from 1985 that had a Maxtrac installed where the AM/FM/Cassette deck was normally. However, I noticed there was no UHF antenna on the roof or anywhere. Turns out, the Maxtrac was using the old AM/FM antenna which is on the drivers side next to the window and was CUT to 1/4 wave for UHF and rewired with RG-58! And you know what, it actually WORKED...
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Bill_G
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by Bill_G »

You never know what you'll find in a school bus. They tend to have a whole lot of no money, and do some strange things to get radios crammed in.
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by AEC »

Busses are a PITA to mount antennas, due to the usually thick roof structure.
Radios are a hassle, bur never a real concern. Kids need to be kept away from the control head, and at times, I have had to mount a sheet of aluminum behind the driver to keep the kiddie's hands away from the radio.

The better area to mount anten as appears to be the front section on the bus, the skin is normally one sheet and not two with insulation barriers. You just get stcuk drilling a few more holes to route around the roofline, and into the driver's compartment. Of course, who builds the bus makes a difference as well.
I am speaking of Blue Bird here, with an International drivetrain/chassis.

Look out for those hidden cameras that are popping up in the overhead comparments!
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by train_radio_guy »

One of the more challenging antenna installations was on a railroad crane. The operator's cab seemed to built to WWII submarine standards! It took two carbide drill bits, and a lot of elbow grease, just to pop a hole through the cab. On top of that, it was 24 volt system! Rather than attempting to tap the battery string at the 'right' spot & risk the radio becoming an expensive fuse, we used an Astron 24-12 volt converter.

Never had to go back on the install, since we did it right the first time. The antenna had one heck of a ground plane too, since there was continuity right down to the tracks!
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by radioeng462 »

Looks good to me!!
KE7JFF
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by KE7JFF »

AEC wrote:Busses are a PITA to mount antennas, due to the usually thick roof structure.
Radios are a hassle, bur never a real concern. Kids need to be kept away from the control head, and at times, I have had to mount a sheet of aluminum behind the driver to keep the kiddie's hands away from the radio.

The better area to mount anten as appears to be the front section on the bus, the skin is normally one sheet and not two with insulation barriers. You just get stcuk drilling a few more holes to route around the roofline, and into the driver's compartment. Of course, who builds the bus makes a difference as well.
I am speaking of Blue Bird here, with an International drivetrain/chassis.

Look out for those hidden cameras that are popping up in the overhead comparments!
My friend says now International on the buses offers a pre-installed NMO mount at the factory which makes things easier. Though he says of he has his way, he would put a locomotive type antenna on the roof!
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by Jim202 »

KE7JFF wrote:
My friend says now International on the buses offers a pre-installed NMO mount at the factory which makes things easier. Though he says of he has his way, he would put a locomotive type antenna on the roof!


Depending on where the buses are used, it may be a better idea to go as suggested with the rail type antenna. If they are using the buses out in the rural area where you have low tree branches, normal antennas won't last long. I had one customer that would get the antenna ripped of all the time. Went to the transit or rail type antennas and that was the end to antenna replacements.

Jim
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by resqguy911 »

I installed about 250 of these suckers in VHF back in the 90's on a new fleet of school buses http://www.antenna.com/cgi-bin/commerce ... =ASPSERIES . The biggest problem was drilling a hole for the SO239 connector on the bottom thru the 3 layers of aluminum. We ate up 10 or so blades.
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by Bill_G »

Jim202 wrote:
KE7JFF wrote:
My friend says now International on the buses offers a pre-installed NMO mount at the factory which makes things easier. Though he says of he has his way, he would put a locomotive type antenna on the roof!


Depending on where the buses are used, it may be a better idea to go as suggested with the rail type antenna. If they are using the buses out in the rural area where you have low tree branches, normal antennas won't last long. I had one customer that would get the antenna ripped of all the time. Went to the transit or rail type antennas and that was the end to antenna replacements.

Jim
Tree limbs are definitely one of the problems with buses around here with all our oaks, maples, ash, and alders. The low cost plastic radome transit antennas (formerly by ASP), besides having squirrley patterns, rarely survive the first limb strike. But, few agencies / companies want to spend the money for the cast aluminum Excaliber series. They'll go for it if they can get the cost built into the initial purchase of a new coach. Buying them after market for a used / transferred vehicle ain't gonna happen. Keep it cheap cheap cheap, and off the tippy top of the roof in the haircut zone. Standard NMO mount VHF and UHF quarter waves usually end up over the driver in the down slope of the roof curve. They don't look too horrible. Then we just have to figure out how to get the line out of the captive space in the overhead down to the radio someplace.

That's usually the second headache with buses - finding a place to mount the radio so it's within reach of the driver, but not in the way of other controls, not blocking visual sight, not catching water, not falling down, and not in the mechanics way. Finding that sweet spot can be a challenge. And even if you did, every yard has eleventy twelve different models of coach, and no two installs will be the same anyways.

The final headache of course is finding decent power. Lord have mercy, some of the wiring behind the panels is a nightmare. You're lucky the vehicle starts after you're done putting in a radio a lot of times. They don't want to spend more than $75 , $60, $45 per install, but you're inviting $100, $200 worth of repair just taking a panel down to run a wire. The four ways don't work. The rear heater died. Something always falls off, falls down, falls apart. Then, you have to really be on your game to find a ground that is actually a good ground, a battery point that is actually a good battery point, and an switched ignition point that is actually a good switched point. It is amazing how many buses have brown power. And again, at $45 an install, you don't have a lot of wiggle room to be choosey about where the power goes.

Yeah, buses, especially school buses, are a challenge.
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train_radio_guy
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by train_radio_guy »

Back in the mid-1990's I was working at a 2-way shop, that sold G.E., /\/\ Radius, & E.F. Johnson products. As luck would have it, we had the radio contract for servicing the buses of two different cities. Whether it was Flxible, GMC, or Neoplan buses, they all had a radio box, below the driver, in a compartment accessible, from the outside of the bus. The radio 'box' was large enough to accommodate a /\/\ Micor, and had a slide-out tray. Power was provided via an attached seal-tight conduit, and there was a built-in chase, right up the pillar, adjacent to the driver.

Initial installs were a real challenge, but maintenance was manageable. That was until the bus companies hired a contractor to clean the buses, including the inside of the buses, with a pressure washer! The radio 'box' was water proof from the outside of the bus, but not from the inside. Who figured there would be a water source, let alone one with pressure, coming from the inside of the bus! It trashed half of the Micor radio decks.

Timing was on our side. Due to age, and a recent grant from the state, one of the towns was replacing most of their buses with new Neoplans. The new buses had a bezel in the console just above the driver's head, which would accommodate a /\/\ GM300 perfectly. We ran power from a local switched source, and installed handsets on the pillar adjacent to the driver. Neoplan had already installed the antennas at the factor, and left us slack in the console above the driver. When it was all down, it was a clean install, and no more water problems.

In short, buses can be a pain.
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Re: A picture is worth a thousand words

Post by topramen »

train_radio_guy wrote: The same radio shop had their trunking system, on the center (energized) tower of three; primarily used by a Commercial AM Radio Station. One of the iso-couplers was failing, and desperately needed to be replaced. In order to safely remove an iso-couple, from the feed line of a live tower, the broadcast transmitter is typically turned down to a minimum power, or shut off completely. The local radio station wanted $1,000 an hour, in compensation for lost revenue, during the 'down-time' of the transmitter.
Speaking as someone who's day job is in Broadcast radio... unless that AM station was located in a top 10 market (New York, LA, SF, etc) the station owner was trying to fleece the shop. In a top 30 market, the rates for spots in the middle of the night are so low, that if the station goes off the air at midnight and comes back at 5am, it loses 30 bucks. Tops... usually less. On average, it COSTS the owner money to run an AM station (especially if it's running that IBOC crap) at night.
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