Pros of Duplex
Moderator: Queue Moderator
Pros of Duplex
I need some ammo to sell a repeater project....Give me some reasons duplex is advantageous for fire dept communications.
Perhaps I should clarify:
I have a group of depts (FIRE/EMS) that are split on going VHF repeater. The people that are not sure, say the portable radios don't need to be repeated, and that they will tie up the system. I don't believe it is an issue. Look at many depts that use repeaters successfully. It appears to be a tremendous advantage to hear all traffic on the frequency. Of course, radio traffic needs to be kept to the minimum on the repeater, and use of fireground is a must! One of the main gripes I have heard is can we educate our personnel to use the system correctly. These are radios, not spaceships.
Discuss...
Thanks.
I have a group of depts (FIRE/EMS) that are split on going VHF repeater. The people that are not sure, say the portable radios don't need to be repeated, and that they will tie up the system. I don't believe it is an issue. Look at many depts that use repeaters successfully. It appears to be a tremendous advantage to hear all traffic on the frequency. Of course, radio traffic needs to be kept to the minimum on the repeater, and use of fireground is a must! One of the main gripes I have heard is can we educate our personnel to use the system correctly. These are radios, not spaceships.
Discuss...
Thanks.
"Duplex" itself really offers very little, in terms of being 'advantageous' for a fire dept. First of all, the field radios in use won't be 'full duplex', meaning they won't have the ability to transmit & receive at the same time...as a Cell phone would. I think your real question is how to sell a 'repeater', as opposed to 'simplex' communications.
The main advantage of a repeater over simplex systems is extended range. If you already have a working base station system (commonly referred to as 'half duplex'), then you already have the biggest advantage a repeater would give you...assuming the transmit power & antenna location are equal.
If you are speaking of a system that is truly simplex (radio-to-radio communications), then the clearly extended range a properly installed & located repeater would be more than enough to make your sale.
Todd
The main advantage of a repeater over simplex systems is extended range. If you already have a working base station system (commonly referred to as 'half duplex'), then you already have the biggest advantage a repeater would give you...assuming the transmit power & antenna location are equal.
If you are speaking of a system that is truly simplex (radio-to-radio communications), then the clearly extended range a properly installed & located repeater would be more than enough to make your sale.
Todd
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Welcome to the /\/\achine.
Welcome to the /\/\achine.
As long as you have a proper repeater and antenna location, it should work well.
The issue comes down to training. I have seen many a dept going deep into a building on a repeater channel and can't make it out.
Training and tactical radio setup must be done prior to putting the system online.
For instance, a recommended setup for portables would be 1-Repeater 2 - talkaround 3- fireground
A good offshoot of that is also 1-talkaround 2-repeater 3-fireground
A reason being, your appratus and dispatcher can coorinate activites prior to or at arrival with all to hear. When your people get off the rig, they will not have to fumble with radios to go to a channel for fireground ops. If you leave the radios on talkaround, you can still hear any arriving units, and they can hear you if your in a builing that can't make a reapeater etc.
Many things to consider, but a repeater can be a very valuable asset.
Sounds like you are from a dept "deep" in the woods...in many respects
The issue comes down to training. I have seen many a dept going deep into a building on a repeater channel and can't make it out.
Training and tactical radio setup must be done prior to putting the system online.
For instance, a recommended setup for portables would be 1-Repeater 2 - talkaround 3- fireground
A good offshoot of that is also 1-talkaround 2-repeater 3-fireground
A reason being, your appratus and dispatcher can coorinate activites prior to or at arrival with all to hear. When your people get off the rig, they will not have to fumble with radios to go to a channel for fireground ops. If you leave the radios on talkaround, you can still hear any arriving units, and they can hear you if your in a builing that can't make a reapeater etc.
Many things to consider, but a repeater can be a very valuable asset.
Sounds like you are from a dept "deep" in the woods...in many respects
Lowband radio. The original and non-complicated wide area interoperable communications system
This may strike some as heresy, but I do not believe the Fire should be repeated.
The function of a repeater is to permit two field units to communicate with one another DIRECTLY over a distance that exceeds their inter-unit simplex capability. This makes sense for the Police, where there are sound operational reasons for distant units to be able to talk to one another. However, on the Fire communications consist of (a) dispatch, between Fire Alarm and the responding companies, or between the OIC and Fire Alarm, and (b) between units over the short-range on the fireground. A repeater does nothing for the operable distance at which (a) type comms are possible and it is completely unnecessary for (b) time comms. Worse, a repeater often gives LESS comm power at the fireground, and this introduces the need to train guys to be able to shift to "direct" (talkaround), while under stress and possible when in distress. A jake in trouble is going to get the help he needs from the guys out on the sidewalk, not from Fire Alarm.
Repeaterizing the Fire is great for fire buffs, since it permits them to monitor fireground transmission without going out in the rain. I guess it also permits the Chief to monitor how the guys are doing after hours from at home. To be sure, it is now all the rage, but I question whether the cost, equipment complexity, and training issues produce anything of value.
The function of a repeater is to permit two field units to communicate with one another DIRECTLY over a distance that exceeds their inter-unit simplex capability. This makes sense for the Police, where there are sound operational reasons for distant units to be able to talk to one another. However, on the Fire communications consist of (a) dispatch, between Fire Alarm and the responding companies, or between the OIC and Fire Alarm, and (b) between units over the short-range on the fireground. A repeater does nothing for the operable distance at which (a) type comms are possible and it is completely unnecessary for (b) time comms. Worse, a repeater often gives LESS comm power at the fireground, and this introduces the need to train guys to be able to shift to "direct" (talkaround), while under stress and possible when in distress. A jake in trouble is going to get the help he needs from the guys out on the sidewalk, not from Fire Alarm.
Repeaterizing the Fire is great for fire buffs, since it permits them to monitor fireground transmission without going out in the rain. I guess it also permits the Chief to monitor how the guys are doing after hours from at home. To be sure, it is now all the rage, but I question whether the cost, equipment complexity, and training issues produce anything of value.
Repeated or not, they may still want to go full duplex. I know of one agency that does just that for both police and fire. their line of thinking is that if the user in the field needs to "interrupt" the dispatcher for any reason (i.e. "HE HAS A GUN" or "THE BUILDING IS GOING TO FALL") they can still get that critical information back even if dispatch is on the air. If a repeater is involved, then the message would not get repeated (depending on your priority list). I assume it would take some getting used to. I hope this helps
All of the above comments should be understood clearly. The main advantage of a repeater system is to extend the coverage area of a portable. The mobiles by themselfs generally don't need it. However, in the fire service, getting the correct information is of a timely matter.
Another issue that no one on here has mentioned is the requirement of NFPA. I can't quote it off the top of my head, but all communications of the fire and EMS service are required to be recorded.
Now before everone jumps all over me, I will make one clarifying statement. If your community has adopted the NFPA guide lines, then all the communications are mandated by the NFPA guidelines to be recorded.
All the departments around here have a repeater for their normal communications. All of this is recorded at the dispatch point. If you don't have a repeater, then it becomes a problem trying to record the portables.
We get a request more often than you think to have a copy made of all the communications from a call. Normally it is over an EMS call. There are more and more requests being made by insurance companies investigating structure fires. They are looking at just how the fire department funtioned in fighting the fire. The fire department is not immune to law suits for doing a poor job putting out a fire.
Jim
Another issue that no one on here has mentioned is the requirement of NFPA. I can't quote it off the top of my head, but all communications of the fire and EMS service are required to be recorded.
Now before everone jumps all over me, I will make one clarifying statement. If your community has adopted the NFPA guide lines, then all the communications are mandated by the NFPA guidelines to be recorded.
All the departments around here have a repeater for their normal communications. All of this is recorded at the dispatch point. If you don't have a repeater, then it becomes a problem trying to record the portables.
We get a request more often than you think to have a copy made of all the communications from a call. Normally it is over an EMS call. There are more and more requests being made by insurance companies investigating structure fires. They are looking at just how the fire department funtioned in fighting the fire. The fire department is not immune to law suits for doing a poor job putting out a fire.
Jim