10-95 - Ribless Cable / Any Progress?

RESCUE161 · Post by **RESCUE161** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 9:39 am

A while back 10-95 was going to tear down an OEM cable to find out exactly what made it work. I've searched the archives, but can't find anything. Has anyone found out what the deal is?

I'm thinking, why can't a 'dongle' be made so that a regular Jedi cable can be used on an XTS5000/XTS2500.

I do it on my Astro Saber using a regular Saber cable.

The only difference would be the electronics of the ribless cable would be housed in a connector hood and you wouldn't use a RIB when you use the dongle. The cable I have for Jedi has pins 13, 9, 8, 6, 4 and 2. What are the actual pins on the cable for the XTS5000?

Certainly if the pins are different, a couple of pogo pins can be added and a dongle made that would enable regular Jedi cables to program XTS5000/XTS2500's "ribless" so to speak.

10-95 · Post by **10-95** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:34 am

RESCUE161 wrote:A while back 10-95 was going to tear down an OEM cable to find out exactly what made it work. I've searched the archives, but can't find anything. Has anyone found out what the deal is?

I'm thinking, why can't a 'dongle' be made so that a regular Jedi cable can be used on an XTS5000/XTS2500.

I do it on my Astro Saber using a regular Saber cable.

The only difference would be the electronics of the ribless cable would be housed in a connector hood and you wouldn't use a RIB when you use the dongle. The cable I have for Jedi has pins 13, 9, 8, 6, 4 and 2. What are the actual pins on the cable for the XTS5000?

Certainly if the pins are different, a couple of pogo pins can be added and a dongle made that would enable regular Jedi cables to program XTS5000/XTS2500's "ribless" so to speak.

Hi Scott, no progress, actually the project stalled here. The OEM ribless cables have some kind of smart chip inside of it and that's about all I know. I do know that member Scanshop has figured it out but he has not posted here in a while.

Frank

RESCUE161 · Post by **RESCUE161** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:37 am

So is my theory of using the same cable legit? What pins does the XTS5000 actually use?

mancow · Post by **mancow** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:46 am

Monty had posted something about this chip in the past. It was determined to be a memory chip if I recall that had an electronic serial number permanently embedded.

I still don't understand what the purpose of it is.

mancow

Post by **wavetar** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:45 am

RESCUE161 wrote:So is my theory of using the same cable legit? What pins does the XTS5000 actually use?

I had thought this at first as well. I figured the XTS5000 just had a different pin-out from the Jedi series. However, this is not the case. The Jedi's use the Ground, Busy & Bus lines on pins 8, 9 & 13 for programming. The XTS2500/5000 use RS232 + and - lines on different pins (don't recall which at the moment). There isn't even a spot to feed these lines into the standard RIB, so a special interface is needed. That's as far as I looked into it.

Todd

CTAMontrose · Post by **CTAMontrose** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:50 am

yeah im sure that the guy on ebay who has figured it out, obvisouly isnt gonna tell any time soon....

i would expect motorola to continue this trend of "ribless, non make-able" cables.. why wouldnt they?

m

RESCUE161 · Post by **RESCUE161** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:37 pm

No, I'm not saying to use a Jedi cable with a dongle on a RIB, just using the dongle and plug it directly into the computer. The dongle would have all of the things that the ribless cable has.

What are the pins for programming on the XTS5000?

chiefhal3 · Post by **chiefhal3** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:30 am

Well, I understand that there is a ribless cable that is used for the XTS5000, however, can you use the same cable for the jedi series if you run it through a rib like you do for the xts3000?

CTAMontrose · Post by **CTAMontrose** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:32 am

no, a jedi cable wont work on a 5k or 2500

you have to use either the ribless serial, or USB cable.

Victor Xray · Post by **Victor Xray** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:47 am

This is a great project for someone to get credit for. I'm surprised the schematic and component details of the XTS5000 cable have not yet been posted.

RESCUE161 · Post by **RESCUE161** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:48 am

Why not? Are the pins on the ribless cable in physically different locations that the pins on a Jedi cable?

Can someone tell me where the pins for programming are located on the XTS5000 programming cable?

If they are the same, then a dongle can be made to fit between the Jedi cable and the computer that will mimic a ribless cable. It can't be that hard, I just don't have a pin-out for the XTS5000 to start with. Even if they aren't in the same location, extra pins can be placed where they are needed.

I am with 10-95 though and am going to figure it out.

chiefhal3 · Post by **chiefhal3** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:49 am

And I take it that the $100 cables currently on EBay probably should be avoided. I guess I am off to my Moto dealer to give him another $85.00 for programming. That just bugs me that he gets that for what is going to be about 10 minutes work. Especially since I will give him all the info to use to program from. But, I guess if the plumber spends 10 minutes fixing a pipe he is going to get that much to. I wonder if he has the cable yet?

CTAMontrose · Post by **CTAMontrose** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:52 am

from what i understand, the protocols are different, no bus- and all that any more..

do a search on the cable, there is a ton of info about this.

RESCUE161 · Post by **RESCUE161** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:00 am

What I'm getting at is that the Jedi cable is a straight through cable, no protocol at all, it uses that rib for it's comm between the computer and the radio. I realize that the Jedi cable /RIB combo is a no-go, but that is not what I'm trying to do.

Why can't that straight through Jedi cable be used in conjunction with a home made dongle that includes all of the parts that the Motorola ribless cable has?

CTAMontrose · Post by **CTAMontrose** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:06 am

that i dont know, so far the hardest part has been figuring out what makes the moto one work...

monty used to have a pic of the inside of this cable, but the pic is gone i guess..

http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.p ... 5000+cable

Post by **wavetar** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:56 am

RESCUE161 wrote:What I'm getting at is that the Jedi cable is a straight through cable, no protocol at all, it uses that rib for it's comm between the computer and the radio. I realize that the Jedi cable /RIB combo is a no-go, but that is not what I'm trying to do.

Why can't that straight through Jedi cable be used in conjunction with a home made dongle that includes all of the parts that the Motorola ribless cable has?

There's absolutely NO reason you can't use the cable. You could use a cut-off piece from a Jedi Speaker/Mic if you wanted to. The trick is going to be figuring out how to make the 'ribless' part. It's NOT the same as the other mini-rib configurations you might see on Batlabs or Ebay that'll program other radio models. As I said above, the programming protocol is different from the standard RIB design. How different, I don't know as I haven't looked deeper into it. I once posted the programming pins for the XTS5000, I will add it to this post if I find it.

Todd

Tango · Post by **Tango** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:24 pm

There's absolutely NO reason you can use the jedi cable

n9upc · Post by **n9upc** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:49 pm

Now here is a wild ideal that I thought of while reading this thread which I am going to try:

EF Johnson makes a digital portable (5100 series) that takes the /\/\ jedi spkr/mic and xts batteries. IN addition the techs I have talked to at EFJ (Waconia MN facility before it closed) that have worked on the portable have come right out and said the portable uses an XTS board.

Now the programming cable for the EFJ is a ribless comm port to side of radio cable. So I thought while reading this that tomorrow I am going to try and read a xts5000 portable with an EFJ cable.

If it works I seem to recall that the EFJ cable is a hell of a lot cheaper then the /\/\ cable. IN addition if it does work then I think we have a different plateform to work off based on the fact that the EFJ cable has no other externally visable components from the outside. (There could be a hell of a lot of small resistors, caps, etc.. in the cable but it does not feel that ridged to contan these parts.

I will post my findings and the cable part number tomorrow when I get a chance.

515 · Post by **515** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:45 am

I just tried reading an XTS5000 with an EFJ 5100 cable, and it didn't work. I then tried reading it with the Motorola RKN4106A, and it worked fine.

The DB-9 end of the EFJ 5100 cable doesn't have any components in it. The radio end of the EFJ 5100 cable didn't have any components that were connected to anything either. So it's just a straight-thru cable.

If anyone's interested, I can map out the 5100 programming cable when I get a chance.

If I remember right, the EFJ 5100 maybe used the XTS RF power amp, but I'm pretty sure the logic board is all EFJ...

willbartlett · Post by **willbartlett** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 7:50 pm

OK, Interesting on the picture of the rkn4105. Here's a description of the part in the picture from Maxim-ic.com

The DS2433 is a 4kb 1-Wire® EEPROM. Like all 1-Wire devices the DS2433 consists of a factory-lasered 64-bit ROM registration number that includes a unique 48-bit serial number, an 8-bit CRC, and an 8-bit family code (23h). The power to read and write the DS2433 is derived entirely from the 1-Wire communication line. The memory is organized as 16 pages of 256 bits each. Data is transferred serially through the 1-Wire protocol which requires only a single data lead and a ground return.

So there is some block of code (4kb) stored in the ribless cable as well as it's unique ESN ( who thought we'd reach the day when cables had an ESN, scary thought for the privacy minded out there) My guess is some block of code the CPS or RSS needs to see before allowing a write to the radio. Looks like that chip is writable in the default condition, so you'd need to read it after successive r/w sessions to discern if there was any activity or not. I didn't see any reference to a security bit or command that would prevent future wrie sessions, but I just skimmed the datasheet

If I read the datasheet correctly, one could extract the data resident in that device if one had the appropriate interface, which is probably a chip available off the shelf. Maxim seems to be real proud of this 1-wire interface, and the whole spec is on their website. I don't think that that is all there is to the hkn4105, there must be a usb-1 wire interface chip on the reverse side.

Without seeing what's on the other side of that board, it's kind of a guess, but all I see other than that chip look like zeners or diodes based on the pin attachments.

Will

willbartlett · Post by **willbartlett** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 7:50 pm

OK, Interesting on the picture of the rkn4105. Here's a description of the part in the picture from Maxim-ic.com

The DS2433 is a 4kb 1-Wire® EEPROM. Like all 1-Wire devices the DS2433 consists of a factory-lasered 64-bit ROM registration number that includes a unique 48-bit serial number, an 8-bit CRC, and an 8-bit family code (23h). The power to read and write the DS2433 is derived entirely from the 1-Wire communication line. The memory is organized as 16 pages of 256 bits each. Data is transferred serially through the 1-Wire protocol which requires only a single data lead and a ground return.

So there is some block of code (4kb) stored in the ribless cable as well as it's unique ESN ( who thought we'd reach the day when cables had an ESN, scary thought for the privacy minded out there) My guess is some block of code the CPS or RSS needs to see before allowing a write to the radio. Looks like that chip is writable in the default condition, so you'd need to read it after successive r/w sessions to discern if there was any activity or not. I didn't see any reference to a security bit or command that would prevent future write sessions, but I just skimmed the datasheet

If I read the datasheet correctly, one could extract the data resident in that device if one had the appropriate interface, which is probably a chip available off the shelf. Maxim seems to be real proud of this 1-wire interface, and the whole spec is on their website. I don't think that that is all there is to the hkn4105, there must be a usb-1 wire interface chip on the reverse side.

Without seeing what's on the other side of that board, it's kind of a guess, but all I see other than that chip look like zeners or diodes based on the pin attachments.

Will

Tango · Post by **Tango** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:37 pm

Don't know if there's some components inside the USB plug?

scanman · Post by **scanman** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:56 pm

The serial number is only needed for the one wire serial comm chip in the USB cable, NOT the ribless "normal" cable. there is no difficulty making it if you have surface mount technology, microscopes, and professionaly made boards. Nothing proprietary either. Hi Frank !!!!

willbartlett · Post by **willbartlett** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:01 pm

OK, This is freakin Killing me!. I've been here all night trying to reverse engineer this cable, to no avail. I'm using a max233cpp on a bread board. I shouldn't say that I'mnot having any luck, The radio beeps when I try to read it, but that's all. I've been poking at the rs-232-ttl chip, and I think I have the paths laid out properly. I get "radio failed to acknowledge".

To be clear, this is one of the HK radios, Host Version R02.20.02, DSP Version R02.02.00. Cps 2.01 The serial # is not 123abc1234, but It doesent look like any serial # i've seen to date, so who knows..

It could very likely be an alpha radio that can only be read with CPS ver 4 as discussed elsewhere on the board, but I'd like to rule out the cable first. I pormise I'll post the cable schematic for all to see when I'm done. anyone had any luck with this yet?

Will

scanman · Post by **scanman** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:16 pm

The error you are receiving is because the radio does not like the cable. The cable has to allow the pooter to see the radio and vice versa.

willbartlett · Post by **willbartlett** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:23 pm

OK, I think I was already getting that. Do you have a schematic you can share of the rs-232 cable?

Will

scanman · Post by **scanman** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:15 pm

I dont have a schematic per say. We have never went very far documenting it once we got it to work. I would however reccomend trying a legit radio and not a Hacked and no doubt stolen "Panter" radio. I have it on the best possible info from the best source that his radios have all come from either the Hong Kong State Police (Same as our FBI) and / or the Australian MIN. of DEF. No wonder the SN is weird. Make sure you have a good Guinea pig radio.

willbartlett · Post by **willbartlett** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 5:26 pm

Please forgive my poor scanning skills. I couldn't figure out a way to export the schematic from Multisim in a viewable format. If anyone knows how to get an image out of a .DXF file, I'll gladly send the dxf file to them. I'm forwarding this to Bat as well. I hope this is the end of the $150 cables on ebay, pure

ing highway robbery.

You can get +5v from the radio using pin 4, opt + and sending it through a 7805 regulator, that's what Mot does in their ribless cable.

I breadboarded mine, I'm not posting a picture of it as I still have SOME pride.

Enjoy, Will

Post by **wavetar** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:33 am

Thanks Will, great job. If we're not careful, people might begin to think useful information gets posted on the Batboard!

Todd

gcowan99 · Post by **gcowan99** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:17 pm

Any one make any progress on this subject yet! did you guys get the cable built and operational?

Grant

willbartlett · Post by **willbartlett** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:34 pm

Yep, That's' what the schematic is. I built it using a solderless protoboard and a leftover accessory connector. It does work, but you'll need to find an accessory connector with every pin position available, or modify one with a small drill. I'm trying to source a fully populated connector to work with, and will post a part # if I can find one.

Will

oh2lak · Post by **oh2lak** » Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:08 am

So will this work for a mini-rib to use with a Astro Spectra and vRCH?

..
Erik

nickjc · Post by **nickjc** » Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:44 am

willbartlett wrote: If anyone knows how to get an image out of a .DXF file, I'll gladly send the dxf file to them.

Will

Send me the DXF...I can manipulate it anyway you need...

Nick

willbartlett · Post by **willbartlett** » Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:36 am

Sorry, I meant to do it, I'll get it to you in the next day or so.

Thanks, Will

Hightower · Post by **Hightower** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:16 am

I can confirm that the above schematic does work just fine on the XTS 2500/5000 AND the newer PR1500 radios. Many radios have been read and written to with this design with absolutly no problems.

Instead of using the MAX233, I used the MAX232 and just had to add 4 capacitors. Works like a champ.

I took a HT1000 speaker mic, and removed the pins. Drilled out the necessary new holes for the new pin layout.

Also I am grabbing 8V from the Opt_V pin, and feed it to a 5V regulator.

Many thanks to all who contributed to this project

Experimental · Post by **Experimental** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:26 pm

I finished building the previous serial cable as shown in the previous thread.

After checking everything as correct, I still get a strange problem.

When I connect the XTS5K to the computer running the CPS, the radio displays KEYLOADING and will not read or write.

Anybody else experience this?

Oh, yeah, the radio is known good and works with the USB cable just fine.

Thanks!

Hightower · Post by **Hightower** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 11:14 pm

Experimental wrote:I finished building the previous serial cable as shown in the previous thread.

After checking everything as correct, I still get a strange problem.

When I connect the XTS5K to the computer running the CPS, the radio displays KEYLOADING and will not read or write.

Anybody else experience this?

Oh, yeah, the radio is known good and works with the USB cable just fine.

Thanks!

Tripple check the pinout on the cable that interfaces to the radio's side. I'm willing to bet something is wrong with the pinout there.

I'm running that schematic shown above and it's worked just fine. I built it with the intentions on using it on future radios. I can change the cable that goes to the radio. So when motorola introduces the XTS7000, all that has to be done is build a simple 4-6 wire interface to the radio's interface.

Just a guess on motorolas next high end Astro radio, but why not XTS7000.

Experimental · Post by **Experimental** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:56 pm

Ok, after rechecking everything I found the problem!

The problem is the diagram/schematic.

I found the error by cross checking with the Data Sheet for the MAX233 and its clone the Sipex SP233ACP.

T1in is incorrectly shown as coming from the RS-232, when in fact it should be TTL coming from the radio.

T1out is incorrectly shown as going to TTL, when in fact it should be going to RS-232.

R1out is incorrectly shown as going to RS-232, when in fact it should be TTL going to the radio.

R2in and R2out are correct.

Conversion through the chip is as follows (Per Data Sheet)

TTL input T1in [Pin 02] ---- RS-232 output T1out [Pin 05]
TTL input T2in [Pin 01] ---- RS-232 output T2out [Pin 18]
TTL output R1out [Pin 03] ---- RS-232 input R1in [Pin 04]
TTL output R2out [Pin 20] ---- RS-232 input R2in [Pin 19]

Once I made these corrections the radio will read and write perfectly!

In any case, thanks for the initial diagram as it was helpful even with the errors!

Beats the crap out of $80+ on eBay!

Regards,
Experimental

compuman81 · Post by **compuman81** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:30 pm

Ok , after much experimentation between myself and my fellow batlabbers on this board, I have some important information.

The schematic above does work for the new Astro25 Portables. We have tried the circuit with several different portables including a PR1500, an XTS5000 and 2500. The programmer almost always has no problems reading and writing to the radio....

However. Once in a while, it WILL fail. Could be during a read...could be during a write. We had it fail once during a write. This was on the PR1500. The radio turned into a brick until we could dig up and old copy of a codeplug and shove it back in. The radio cabe back to life..thank god.

After discovering that the cable initially tried to read our 5000, but got kind of "iffy" so to speak, I said this isn't going to work. We got out our probes and started looking at the logic levels during reads.

The chip is powered through backfeeding juice from the radio's accessory connector. Normally this amount is around 7.5 Volts. It has been on every other radio. But for some reason our radios weren't putting nearly this amount of voltage out.

Basically what we decided to do was to add a 9 volt battery connector to the box in the middle of the cable, and a switch to switch between power sources. Later we discovered using the radio as a power source was almost unreliable because of the voltage drops while reading / writing and it almost seemed like there was some kind of power buffer from the 5000 or dropping resistors...not too sure, but I do suggest you do the same if your going to be building this cable, add an external power source to power the regulator, it'll save you A LOT of frustration and grief in the long run, TRUST ME.

cab · Post by **cab** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:47 am

I'm looking for the schematic of xts2500 xts5000 cable. the link is already not working.

Post by **Grog** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:24 pm

cab wrote:the link is already not working.

Really? What are the odds, I mean the last post was only two years ago

redbeard · Post by **redbeard** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:54 am

Yes, it has been 2 years. Can the OP fix the link regardless?

Tom in D.C. · Post by **Tom in D.C.** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:38 am

Please check your PMs.

10-95 - Ribless Cable / Any Progress?

10-95 - Ribless Cable / Any Progress?

Re: 10-95 - Ribless Cable / Any Progress?

xts-5000 serial cable

OK, Got it!

Re: OK, Got it!

Odd Response with MAX233 circuit

Re: Odd Response with MAX233 circuit

Diagram problem found and corrected - Ribless cable works!

Re: 10-95 - Ribless Cable / Any Progress?

Re: 10-95 - Ribless Cable / Any Progress?

Re: 10-95 - Ribless Cable / Any Progress?

Re: 10-95 - Ribless Cable / Any Progress?