How overbuilt can Nextel get??

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 7:06 pm

I hate to keep dragging on Nextel conversations but I discovered something this evening that makes one wonder how crappy those iDEN receivers are and how overbuilt a company NexHELL is.

Believe it or not, Nextel has not one but 3 licenses for the city of Wyandotte Mi. The city is a mere 5.7 square miles, but for some reason it is a necessity for Nextel to have "set up shop" at not one but 2 locations in my city. Both towers are city-owned and are easy to see for miles around. They are about 1 mile apart and directly in-line. How the hell much coverage overlap is required??

While they've overbuilt here, across the state there is next-to-no service from those bastards.

Like my last post mentioning that Nextel has 'gotten into bed' with law enforcement, I feel that I live in the most corrupted town in the world seeing as how 'beloved' Nextel has gotten into bed with the whole city government by 'offering' their services to every person and even then, with 100% coverage, the audio is still the worst thing I've ever heard even in comparison to a tin can on a stick and people seem to like to 'rub it in' whenever they can with their "direct connecting" everywhere and anywhere they can.

It would seem that Nextel doesn't know when enough is enough nor does Motorola when it came to designing those crappy iDEN toys that people have married. Wayne county (the county I also live in) has 221 Nextel site licenses when the entire state (both upper and lower peninsulas) see 181 towers and 97% coverage from the Astro APCO-25 State of Michigan system.

And even though the state has thrown millions of tax dollars on this system and kept it on the cutting edge of technology through upgrading, all or most of the MSP has Nextel's too, as do State inspectors from the dept. of agriculture. How can anyone be so stupid to even get the notion of distributing more Astro Sabers or XTS radios to these 'office' government employees and get everyone on the system that the state "likes" so much that they have a web page devoted to it http://www.mpscs.com/ ???

What the hell is wrong with this city, county, state, country??

It's like Nextel is the bride or groom of just about everyone except for the radio experts even though some of them have slipped into their clammy grip too.

Pardon my rambling in disgust but geeze, when will these people and agencies wake up??

-Josh

Jonathan KC8RYW · Post by **Jonathan KC8RYW** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 8:52 am

Well, you have to admit that NexTel portable units put out next to no power... 600 mW at the most for the i1000+.

You sometimes will hear folks worried about getting brain tumurs... it's not very likely, especially since most cellphones (or iDen units) are TDMA. In fact, the body has a higher SAR at VHF, then it does at 800 MHz. In other words, a VHF or UHF portable HT is more likely to cause cancer then a cell phone, since it is continously transmitting 100% of the time the PTT is down. TDMA only transmits say 25% of the time or less.

What is more, if Motorola is passing off their iDen units for PTT service, then they should at least provide a speaker/mic connector, and the traditional Motorola Speaker/Mic. I'm sure a lot of people would rather use this, then having to hold the freaking phone using direct-connect.

Anyway, back on topic, the MSP system was designed for mobile coverage. Mobile meaning radios in the squad cars. Mobile radios have much more power then the typical portable HT, since they have a bigger power supply (the car!) I don't know exactly how much power their mobile radios have, though I am guessing somewhere around 30 watts. Therefore, less towers are needed to recieve them, because the signal strength will be strong enough to be usable at the towers they have now.

Now, if the MSP went for a system that gave 97% portable coverage, then the MSP would need MANY more towers. Simply because portables put out less power, and will have a weaker signal strength at the towers.

In the same way, NexTel needs more towers, since they are essentially doing low-power recieving. Now, if the i1000+ put out 3 watts, would we have as many towers? I strongly doubt it.

Do you get what I am saying?

It goes back to the 3watt AMPS bag phones that were popular a number of years ago. They were big, bulky, and heavy, but they helped get the call through with 3 watts of RF power. Now-a-days, a 3W bag phone would be full-quieting with the number of cells most communities have.

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 10:12 am

I think MSP mobiles are 15 watts into a 5db gain antenna.

The portables are 3 watts into that dipole antenna thing of unknown gain (but it works a lot better than the half-wave also available)

The 'Downriver Mutual Aid' system consists of 4 towers and covers 16 cities with an unknown percentage of portable coverage (probably near 97% or better). The towers are located in Ecorse, Riverview/Trenton, Flat Rock and Taylor. Mobile coverage is 100% definitly. It works great just about everywhere. I've only had minute reception problems in an elevator shaft at U of M Dearborn (which is outside the coverage area) and also in Southland Mall at Radio Shack.

That's it. Nextel has at least 25 towers in this same area heck, they have 4 towers within a 2 mile radius of my home.

-Josh

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 1:24 pm

One of my buddies was talking about how our Dept was going to be getting NexHells for the line officers and how cool it was. He couldn't understand what was wrong when I started laughing hysterically and cursing my stupid stupid stupid town. I then explained the whole NexTel vs Public Safety interference thing to him and his attitude changed pretty quick.

Then I made this point, which if you think about it is pretty funny.

Everyone buys those stupid things because of the Direct Connect crap. Well, lets think about this for a minute.

iDen:

1. Pickup phone from waist.
2. Find the direct connect name in the speed dial list.
[cut off Fire Dept requesting a second alarm]
3. Press the button and wait for an answer
4. Other person must pick up phone, press button, and answer
5. One-at-a-time conversation. You speak, then I speak, then you speak, then I speak.
[That ambulance calling a code wasn't important anyway]
6. When done, replace phone on waist.
7. Pay rediculously high bill for rediculously poor service.

Normal Cell phone

1. Pickup phone from waist.
2. Find the phone # name in the speed dial list.
3. Press the button and wait for an answer
4. Other person must pick up phone, press button, and answer
5. Two-Way normal conversation
6. When done, replace phone on waist.
7. Pay your normal phone bill.

Hmmm. The direct connect really isn't any different than using the normal cell phone that you traded in that sounded better and worked in more places anyway. After I made that above little breakdown, his response was "uh, hmm. Gee, your right."

x1sspic · Post by **x1sspic** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 1:30 pm

Exactly. A cell phone is a cell phone. If I want 2-way, then I'll use a REAL 2-way radio!

VHFRADIO · Post by **VHFRADIO** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 3:05 pm

i think that it should be a law for saftey that every public saftey agency should use the traditional 2 way radio...how safe will it be to have to waut for a replie and only hear one side of the conversation/...what if there is an officer down or there is a code that has to be called to anthor ambulance for assistance?....you know what would be nice???.....i am not a big fan of nextel service but i think they should build a radio with the same "100 mile" service...and there should just be a PTT button and Duplex the radio so everone can hear the conversations.....

mike38015 · Post by **mike38015** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 10:49 pm

Jonathan KC8RYW wrote:What is more, if Motorola is passing off their iDen units for PTT service, then they should at least provide a speaker/mic connector, and the traditional Motorola Speaker/Mic. I'm sure a lot of people would rather use this, then having to hold the freaking phone using direct-connect..

There is an aftermarket speaker mic for nextels and it works great, they also sell headsets now that has the direct connect button on the cord.

http://www.headsetusa.com/Merchant2/mer ... y_Code=RSM

I have been using nextels for the past five years and I have a fraction of the problems that I had with AT&T & Sprint.

My FD uses them because they allow private conversations without the expense and trouble of coverting our 800 system to digital.

I know nextel is not perfect but what telephone company wireless or hard wire is.

Just my 2 cents.

metro121 · Post by **metro121** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:44 am

I cannot help myself to addining my thoughts on any NEXTSMELL discussion.

I would like to start off by saying, an you can quote me on this,

$%*&^%V*&(#NF)_#&RBBD_#&^_#__$B_GY%&^ &)F_B#YF_#YF#^FFYB_F&BB&#Y#*&BG*(&^Y&@^C$@*$@CB^$@C$$Y)@$^C@$Y&$Y@^$Y)@^$C@$CBEYALEG&*^XT:AHLI^ELXH$W*&$U$H&$^^&YR#&$*&$*(&^&^$$&&$TR(&(JNAO&(X$^(B$(^$NS*EXH*##R*&#*BRY&(&^*&$Y(&C$O@#&$(@$*EHD&#(%U)#*U%BRY(%OW%YHR#&#%(R&#YRH(#&RC)*RIRJ)#(*$I#%UR)U(#&$%C*IWR&W)*EDW&$R(#*UH&UT%)T#*W(URH@)($UH)#%#)%R#)%#*%U#(%#%(#*U$#&(O*#*OQ$*@U$)%&)##)%U)#*%)#%#)%*#YTBGUCG)#&%U#)V&%U)#%)*)V%#*%#)*%V)_*%I_V%UH(WDUH*(O$(TVB(%%)ODUW(K%#U)$)*#_(#^_@#%L#"&%
{_
#%{(#+^%(#_^+{#%^#_(IJ#)B{
$#"%_
#N#)%(
#%(B)%#OV}M_)(#(%TK_(%ONV_(I)#V_#(*I%)(*%#().

And I mean it!

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:54 am

mike38015 wrote: My FD uses them because they allow private conversations without the expense and trouble of coverting our 800 system to digital.

I know nextel is not perfect but what telephone company wireless or hard wire is.

Just my 2 cents.

NexTel is not a telephone company. And on top of that, I have yet to see a Sprint, AT&T, SBC, Verizon, or whatever system that renders Public Safety communications useless because of interference and then pays off the FCC to not do anything about it. That is a little be more than "not perfect" if you ask me.

Jonathan KC8RYW · Post by **Jonathan KC8RYW** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 10:35 am

mike38015 wrote:
Jonathan KC8RYW wrote:What is more, if Motorola is passing off their iDen units for PTT service, then they should at least provide a speaker/mic connector, and the traditional Motorola Speaker/Mic. I'm sure a lot of people would rather use this, then having to hold the freaking phone using direct-connect..

There is an aftermarket speaker mic for nextels and it works great, they also sell headsets now that has the direct connect button on the cord.

http://www.headsetusa.com/Merchant2/mer ... y_Code=RSM

Wow, somebody DOES make i1000 speaker mics.

Still, it goes into the connector on the bottom. The same connector that the charger adapter connects into. So, it's not really a 100% true speaker/mic connector... but I guess it is as good as you are going to get, until Motorola does some redesigning of their iDen "2-way handsets."

LOL, take a look at the graphic of the unit on that website:
'PTT Button "Patent Pending"'

Darn! Why hadn't I though of putting in a patent on the PTT button first!

Radio_Cowboy · Post by **Radio_Cowboy** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:00 pm

I guess you aren't a rocket scientist.......like the web page says....It takes ROCKET SCIENCE to build a speaker mic!

Oh isn't that lovely? When you click on "Products and Ordering, Dealer Inquiries, contact information or Dealer Promotions," you get the nifty Nexthell connect sound.....Like we don't get to hear that enough......

-RC-

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:23 pm

Radio_Cowboy wrote:I guess you aren't a rocket scientist.......like the web page says....It takes ROCKET SCIENCE to build a speaker mic!

Oh isn't that lovely? When you click on "Products and Ordering, Dealer Inquiries, contact information or Dealer Promotions," you get the nifty Nexthell connect sound.....Like we don't get to hear that enough......

-RC-

Where is that at and what's the URL??

It's not just a "Nextel" thing, it's the noise standard to all Motorola trunked radios when acquiring access. It just gets really annoying (more annoying than when it is just confined to a public safety system) when there are billions of Next-to-hell phones out there causing ruckus.

-Josh

Radio_Cowboy · Post by **Radio_Cowboy** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:34 pm

http://www.headsetusa.com/Merchant2/mer ... y_Code=RSM

-RC-

mts2000des2 · Post by **mts2000des2** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:41 pm

Nextel is not designed for public safety. Using it for a replacment or any critical comms is flirting with disaster. Aside from their interference to 800MHz PS systems, their network doesn't provide basic APCO 16 features like failsoft, emergency call, ruthless preemption, etc. What are you gonna do when they do switch maintenance in the middle of the night when you are trying to respond to a call?

One metro Atlanta ambulance company (who is no longer here), AMR, left a municipalities' SmartNET system for Nextel. They learned quickly that it didn't cut the mustard. There would be several times when they would get a NETWORK TROUBLE message when trying to dispatch. I am sure someone waiting for an ambulance would love to know that.

And the main reason Nextel causes so much QRM are their "picocells" which run way too much ERP, with low beam tilt, because any TDMA based system is difficult to get continuous coverage as overlay is a problem. And TDMA is modulated using QUAM, so sideband noise is what causes so much interference to co-channel users, combined with that high ERP and low angle of radiation, you end up creating areas of desense to co-channel users who are in the vicinity of a Craptel site.

Had they stuck to being an SMR and using a high site infrastructure they would not be the enemy they have become to public safety radio. They are trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole. iDEN was not meant to compete with cellular/PCS systems.

Oh, BTW, one of Nextel's biggest scams to get contiguous spectrum is so they can build out a CDMA based network and add more customers. That is the real reason they want to re-align the 800 band. They could care less about jamming public safety or anyone else.

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:44 pm

Radio_Cowboy wrote:http://www.headsetusa.com/Merchant2/mer ... y_Code=RSM

-RC-

Wow, you're right that is annoying. Thank goodness I don't have to deal with that darn noise too much.

I sort of wonder this. With every idiot in the world having a Nazi-tel these days and having their advertisement all over the stupid things, why nobody seems to gather the conclusion that Nextel is getting over capacity.

Laughingly, I read that iDEN is supposed to be more 'spectrum efficient' than regular SMRs. How can this be possible???

Every tower that Nextel has near here is licensed for 140+ frequencies per site and there are more sites for their lousy service than any SMR ever was before. Sure you can get '6 to 1' compression out of it, however, when you hoard every frequency from 851-865.9975, then there's a sever spectrum efficiency problem there.

-Josh

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:54 pm

mts2000des wrote:Oh, BTW, one of Nextel's biggest scams to get contiguous spectrum is so they can build out a CDMA based network and add more customers. That is the real reason they want to re-align the 800 band. They could care less about jamming public safety or anyone else.

\\

I am pretty sure of that!

They're so "involved" in the wrong way with the government that the tables will slide into their favor. Screw everyone else.

I don't think that iCRAP can do CDMA without a major overhaul. I don't understand at all how CDMA works other than it requires a whole 1000Khz of spectrum and isn't monitorable.

I know that TDMA (sucks) and is just like any other trunked radio system except for the digital vocoder, control channel protocol, and TDMA timing. It Nextel was VSELP FDMA operated, then everyone would be monitoring it with their early model Astro Sabers by now.

I'm not really into wanting to monitor their crap because there's too much. Unlike a regular Smartzone system, there's just too many towers to select just one to monitor conventionally.

I'd like to show some of those Nextel loving bastards up some day however by proving that their precious POS system isn't as secure as they think and that unlike cellular phone conversations anytihng that pours through on the SMR (Nextel) frequencies are fair game. After all, it's just a walkie talkie thing right? (??? marks around Nextel's "telephone interconnect" function and the legality of monitoring that).

Also what they don't know (or perhaps care to know) is that my analog 800Mhz scanner can receive their signals and there's no chance that the FCC will rule it to be blocked out as well as the 870-895 MHz cellular band.

-Josh