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We have a Police/Fire Dispatch center currently using a 4 position Centracom II console. It has been band-aided together for some time with spare parts, and the city council is finally considering spending some money on a new console. They have an MTR2000 and several XPR4550 radios for transmitters. They been looking at the MIP 5000 as a cost-effective solution. They would like to find a public safety dispatch that is currently using an MIP5000. Does anyone have any experience with or know of any MIP 5000s in a public safety setting?

Thanks,

Brian

I have put together some MIP5000 consoles at sites that only needed one or two positions. It is an okay console but is lacking in some areas like audio quality on the PC. You would probably be better off with a MCC5500 or maybe even something like the Avtec Scout.

+ 1 for the Avtec Scout. One of the best on the market.

Rob

You could use a Telex CSoft console coupled with an IP224. Each IP224 supports to radios. Get the MotoTrbo interface for the IP224 if you want the advanced features of a Trbo.

OP said he was looking for a cost effective solution..

MIP5000 is not exactly free.

And the OP was looking for a known PS MIP5000 installation presumably in his area, and presumably to ask questions. None of us hit the mark.

Are you suggesting the MIP is not cost effective positioned against the Avtec or the Bosch? Throw out some numbers to support your assertion, if so. I don't recall mentioning the MIP was free, simply that it was more cost effective.

Low 5 figures for the MIP for a single position to mid 5 figures into 6 figures for the Avtec or Telex. Like with anything else, it'll depend on the number of positions and resources. All things that make initial deployment and ongoing maintenance multiply rather quickly. How much would a 3 position 8 resource Avtec run?

As for experience with a MIP, I have a customer that has been running one for 4+ years now. Single position, 10 resources, though the eventual expansion to 12 resources seems to have been forgotten... that's OK though, it's all paid for, they just need to figure out what other channels they want to incorporate and we'll plug the radios into the gateways and reconfigure the screen. Easy peasy

Other than the original gateway power supplies being garbage and their touch screen monitor losing touch on the screen, it's been running like a champ 24/7. We did decide to clone the HDD last October just in case something goes wrong with the PC, and I have an identical PC with the exact same hardware configuration sitting here "just in case", so as far as reliability goes I'd say it's a fine solution, especially since these solutions all need a server to run on and "reliability" of the server is not a function of the console software running thereon.

As for public safety... it's like helicopter radios, right? The more it costs the better it must be?

There are plenty of PS applications using a MIP for their console. Just because you and Rob work for shops that push more expensive product doesn't mean they don't exist. I'm sure once this thread ages past it's current 24 hours we'll have some more input... give it some time. Like with any kind of solution for any application in the radio world, there are benefits, there are drawbacks, and there are checks that need to be written. Ostensibly if a city council is looking at a specific solution, one would need some factual data to support them looking at another solution... especially one that costs exponentially more than the one already being looked at!

Jumping the gun and suggesting an alternate solution "just because" when OP is asking for info on a specific solution isn't very productive. Interesting that you read into the OP's mind and know what he was looking for, while completely ignoring his question and throwing out an alternate product... presumably "just because"

I am shocked, just shocked that an MR tech doesn't have experience with a MIP in a PS application!!

Don't be too shocked. I can't think of a single MIP5k in my area. There might be one. We may have even sold it, but I'm not aware of it. Every 911 dispatch within a hour's drive has a Centracom of some vintage. As for pricing, since we rep a number of different product lines - Motorola, Zetron, Avtec, Telex, and Penta - I get to go through the exercise of apples to oranges to pomegranate comparisons at least twice a year. We're selling a four position Telex with sip phone and a dozen radio resources for a hair under $300k to a transportation company. And that's after months of them kicking the tires on everything we offered, plus outside reps coming in to show what they had. On the other hand, a large manufacturing company well known in the area prefers Zetron. Our local mass transit service went with Avtec. A wind farm consortium went with TurboVui. It's competitive out there, and PS agencies are recognizing that. Maybe someday I'll get to see a MIP5000. Might be nice.

More info on MIP5000

-My thoughts were if you are staffed at 4 positions then your size should support a larger budget that would hopefully allow you to look at alternate solutions that may provide a better solution. I still think the Avtec Scout is an affordable option especially compared to something like an MCC7500 or 7100, certainly worth a closer look.

MIP5000 PROS: Affordable, extremely easy and intuitive to configure and maintain, easy to operate, quite reliable. Recent releases supporting MOTOTRBO radios and virtual control heads is nice.

MIP5000 CONS: RX audio on PC speakers is lacking, TX audio on trunked channels is troublesome-delayed talk permit tones from a trunked channel is transmitted over the air and heard by mobiles and portables. No dedicated record out audio from each gateway. Recorders could be connected to audio pairs of a tone gateway but then you have to deal with HLGT and LLGT and 4 wire systems present more recording challenges.

I have 5 systems installed that I service with one and two positions.

Thanks for all of the replies so far. Here is a little more information. The agency currently has TWO separate Centracom II consoles. Two positions in the 911 dispatch center and three positions in the Emergency Operations center on a separate CEB. The consoles are connected to the same bank of local transmitters (one MTR2000 and 7 Mototrbo XPR4500). During peak hours they have 2 dispatches working in the 911 center and during slow times they only have 1. The Emergency Operations Center very rarely is operational, but when it is, it is staffed with 2-3 people. The thought was that it would be best to replace both consoles with one solution. They would like an IP based solution, but money is a HUGE factor. They have looked at the MCC5500, the MCC7100 and the MCC7500 in addition to the MIP5000. They have also considered installing some used Zetron 4000 series equipment.

I am not shocked at all. The MIP is a play toy that really has no place in a "real" public safety dispatch solution. I have seen one mip installed in our local area here. It was installed as a back up to the main orbacom unit, and we just removed it to the dumpster, computers and all along with the orbacom. The OP would be better served using a few MCC2500 units, it would be more reliable and better serve them over a MIP, if they are so worried about "6 figure" consoles for public safety.

Fact is that we sell a few console solutions, Avtec, Zetron, Telex, and Motorola. Me, personally I have taken a fond liking of the Avtec. It is reliable, well desigend, has good audio, and is competetive in the pricing. The one thing that really stands out is the fact the is releiable, and that is most important to me in a public safety setting.

Just my 2 cents, Rob

Rob - I'm interested in what made the MIP5K a "play toy" compared to other products you worked with. The concept of it seems to be like the Telex - no centralized equipment; PC based operator positions connected by ethernet to remote gateway devices attached to the radio equipment.

Ok, so escomms post got me all hot and bothered, but I am well over it, lol. In my opinion the MIP is a high tier commercial grade solution. Processing is done in the actual dispatch computer gui, which does the audio processing as well. Single network from computer to endpoints (radio interface boxes). Just doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling.

I will speak for the avtec, which uses a cpu for the gui and console control. We include a back up VP gate on this cpu, a seprate VP gate server, media workstation and outposts (radio interface boxes). This is all tied togeteher with redundant networks. We typically do a two position with no aux i/o's for about 125k which will cover 4 radios. Each additional two radios adds about 3k.

Now, we could debate the merits of audio processing and IP level radio interfaces, but the avtec interfaces on an IP level with almost all major vendors and protocols, which is a really nice feature.

There are a few other techinical reasons , but the audio processing, intergration features, network and server redundancy, and media work stations do make the difference.

Rob

Okay. Thanks. Yeah - the Avtec does use a VPgate server in the back room someplace to tie all the work stations together. They all work off the same database. So, one configuration can apply to all positions. You can have redundant networks if you want if the NIC cards are present and the routers have the capability. The Avtec can send multicast packets directly to some models of base stations (like the Tait TB9100 series) without needing another device which can cut costs when you scale up systems.

On the other hand, the customer, or their IT guy, or the radio maintainer, now needs to be quite familiar with servers, networks, et al.

Bill_G wrote:On the other hand, the customer, or their IT guy, or the radio maintainer, now needs to be quite familiar with servers, networks, et al.

Not to be "that guy".... but.... this should be already happening. Especially in the Public Safety arena.

tpg

The Pager Geek wrote:

Bill_G wrote:On the other hand, the customer, or their IT guy, or the radio maintainer, now needs to be quite familiar with servers, networks, et al.

Not to be "that guy".... but.... this should be already happening. Especially in the Public Safety arena.

tpg

Agreed. It's an area of specialization that radio shops have to acquire (to some degree), or be left behind. But, for a small dispatch center in a small agency, having that kind of knowledge on staff isn't always in the budget. And the city radio guy might not up to the task either. So, a server based system becomes something that might not be a good idea unless remote access is granted so the support team can look at it off premise.

While the MIP is a bit of a pain to configure from the IP side, I know the Telex is a hell of a lot worse. I can only imagine what the Avtec is like. But then I see bids from Avtec where they want 15 grand for the installation & configuration for a 4 seat position and can infer it's probably worse than the Telex

I thank Rob for putting some numbers out there. $125k for two dispatchers to control 4 radios is absurd IMHO. Then again, 5 grand for a hand held radio is absurd IMHO as well, so there's that...

I'd have to play with a MIP before I say a Telex is harder. I think the Telex is straight forward, though like any piece of equipment, getting to know all the nuances and nomenclature takes some time. Ala VOX in Telex world is LAM - line actuated monitor. ? ! (Spock eyebrow) On my first exposure at a local community college, I had the night before to read the manual, and then come in the next day to work the problem. No big deal. If a MIP is that simple, it makes me wonder why more of them aren't out here.

I know that when I sit down with an IT manager who has been thrust in the position of supporting the radio system, when they get to configure a Telex, and have it running some of their radio channels in a couple hours during a demo, they want it. It sinks in fast. They totally grasp it, and want to know how long it will take to get all the bits and pieces in. Then they want training for their personnel. I've had dispatchers take over designing the desktop so it evolves over time to match their needs. It doesn't take long for some people to make the pony jump through the flaming hoop.

Speaking of pricing, I checked our bid, and the number I quoted above also includes a Stancil ip based logging recorder ($32K). No more punching down voice channels on a cross connect block. It grabs the hot and cold running packets right off ethernets. Kind of nice.

bsmanwaring wrote:Thanks for all of the replies so far. Here is a little more information. The agency currently has TWO separate Centracom II consoles. Two positions in the 911 dispatch center and three positions in the Emergency Operations center on a separate CEB. The consoles are connected to the same bank of local transmitters (one MTR2000 and 7 Mototrbo XPR4500). During peak hours they have 2 dispatches working in the 911 center and during slow times they only have 1. The Emergency Operations Center very rarely is operational, but when it is, it is staffed with 2-3 people. The thought was that it would be best to replace both consoles with one solution. They would like an IP based solution, but money is a HUGE factor. They have looked at the MCC5500, the MCC7100 and the MCC7500 in addition to the MIP5000. They have also considered installing some used Zetron 4000 series equipment.

Tooting the Telex horn again, but I've replaced CCII consoles with Telex CSoft PC based consoles in dispatch, and multiple "roaming" consoles on laptops that connect through the internet. During drills they show up using their phones as the ip connection back to dispatch. They also take them home to monitor activity during a crisis. It's totally possible. It's not super cheap, but it's reasonable enough. So, an EOC location can be fluid. It can be at a local hospital, or at city hall, or in an RV.

I don't know what your budget it, but Zetron's MaxDispatch system is pretty good looking. IP based, laptop versions available, interfaces with DIUs, highly configurable, but a bit cumbersome adding in IDs, signalling, etc. Everything is licensed based as well letting you buy only what you need and upgrades in the future. System is sold with two of everything with something always on a hot standby. Beat Moto's MCC7500 bid by a landslide......but still in the six figure range installed for a six position/two laptops/14 resource system as well as a SIP phone system.

escomm wrote:While the MIP is a bit of a pain to configure from the IP side, I know the Telex is a hell of a lot worse. I can only imagine what the Avtec is like. But then I see bids from Avtec where they want 15 grand for the installation & configuration for a 4 seat position and can infer it's probably worse than the Telex

I thank Rob for putting some numbers out there. $125k for two dispatchers to control 4 radios is absurd IMHO. Then again, 5 grand for a hand held radio is absurd IMHO as well, so there's that...

So, I wonder how much a two position, 4 radio MCC5500, or even a 7500? Can anyone opine on a roundabout figure.
That 125k represents state contract pricing, which is way higher than if you bought and installed it privately (go figure).

I have never had an issue with paying top price for a good product. I do have an issue paying top price for less than good products. When you buy an Avtec or Zetron you are paying for the R&D and all the features they have engineered into the product, like the ability to send and control other IP radios vie the wire, like the TB9100.

Bill, agreed. Radio work is giving way to the need for full out IT techs when installing dispatch consoles, so at least the trend seems to be going. It seems to be going further into the radio side of the business as well.

Rob

The great thing about Zetron is their support. If their dispatch group follows the same pattern as their signaling group, they will be making and supporting their products for a long time. They have a challenge. Because PC based systems have to keep up with changes in Windows and PC in general, we can expect the Zetron product to evolve. They can't build it once and never change it like they've done with most of their other products. We can probably expect a shorter pipeline than 20 years on their dispatch products, but we can also expect they will support it. That has been the determining factor for a number of customers.

FMROB wrote:Bill, agreed. Radio work is giving way to the need for full out IT techs when installing dispatch consoles, so at least the trend seems to be going. It seems to be going further into the radio side of the business as well.

Rob

Yep. Hence the reason we set up a Trbo group since much of magic comes from tying it all together. However, just like radio guys are not necessarily IT guys, we are finding IT guys are generally not radio guys. Or wiring guys. Or mounting things in a cabinet guys. They are demons from hell configuring and troubleshooting something that can be fixed with a keyboard. You get outside that zone, and you're gonna need another skill set. We've been able to "mold" some into complying with building codes, grounding standards, physics, gravity, etc, but we usually have to bridge the expertise gap with teams rather than individuals. The right individuals have turned out to be invaluable additions to our teams.

I've priced up MIP5000, Telex, MAX-IP & Avtec a few times in the last year or so. In order of price, least to most, I've found it goes:

MIP5000
.
.
.
Telex
.
.
MAX-IP
.
Avtec

The Telex system *used* to be price competitive with the MIP...or even less. Their hardware & software/licensing costs have gone through the roof as compared to 5 years ago. Needing a separate box per base station to take advantage of the MotoTRBO features over & above the IP223/224 just adds to the cost.

That said, the system we installed nearly 5 years ago for a regional 911 center has worked like a champ. The networking side, as Bill mentions, is quite straight forward.

The AVTEC pricing gets REALLY ridiculous if you can't deal with them directly, and are forced to go through the Motorola ATS (Assembled Trunked/TRBO Systems) group, as is required for any 'direct connect' MotoTRBO system...you might be able to avoid that if using Outposts only, I don't know. The networking side is harder to handle, as there are multiple multi-cast addresses to deal with. Once you wrap your head around that, it's not so bad.

I actually quite like the MIP architecture and price point, as far as a control station based console goes. I personally wouldn't have an issue with implementing it within a public safety environment, although do agree if budget isn't an issue a higher tiered console would be 'better'.

I can't get past the abortion that is the MAX-IP connection to NexEdge systems. If a third party company like Phaeton (NexeTalk) can direct IP interface into a NexEdge system, why can't Zetron, who are owned by Kenwood? Requiring IP gateways at the repeaters just makes for a lot of work, and a lot of configuration limitations. I haven't looked at the MAX-IP for non-NexEdge systems.

wavetar wrote:The AVTEC pricing gets REALLY ridiculous if you can't deal with them directly, and are forced to go through the Motorola ATS (Assembled Trunked/TRBO Systems) group, as is required for any 'direct connect' MotoTRBO system...you might be able to avoid that if using Outposts only, I don't know.

The only system type that forces you to go through Motorola ATS is a direct IP link to a Connect Plus system. All others can go direct to Avtec.

Good stuff too..

tpg

5 positions with 2 in dispatch and 3 in Eoc. I would say skip the MIP, I am pretty sure there are no granular options for cross muting its either on or off. So if you have the eoc activated they dont know what the dispatch center is saying and vice versa and will lead to lots of confusion.

The Pager Geek wrote:

wavetar wrote:The AVTEC pricing gets REALLY ridiculous if you can't deal with them directly, and are forced to go through the Motorola ATS (Assembled Trunked/TRBO Systems) group, as is required for any 'direct connect' MotoTRBO system...you might be able to avoid that if using Outposts only, I don't know.

The only system type that forces you to go through Motorola ATS is a direct IP link to a Connect Plus system. All others can go direct to Avtec.

Good stuff too..

tpg

Maybe in the States. Here in Canada at least, we have to go through ATS for Linked Capacity Plus, and by extension, Capacity Plus since it needs to be configured as a single site LCP in order to interface through VP Gate. I can't say if IPSC needs to go through ATS, as I haven't dealt with that yet.

wavetar wrote:
Maybe in the States. Here in Canada at least, we have to go through ATS for Linked Capacity Plus, and by extension, Capacity Plus since it needs to be configured as a single site LCP in order to interface through VP Gate. I can't say if IPSC needs to go through ATS, as I haven't dealt with that yet.

I stand corrected for the folks up North

tpg

escomm wrote:I am shocked, just shocked that an MR tech doesn't have experience with a MIP in a PS application!!

He's not the only one...

Shall I throw my $0.02 in for MCC 7500? While we're at it, lets sell them an ASTRO25 system.

Bill_G wrote:You could use a Telex CSoft console coupled with an IP224. Each IP224 supports to radios. Get the MotoTrbo interface for the IP224 if you want the advanced features of a Trbo.

What has your experience with the C-Soft/IP223 setup been like. We had one in a mobile command vehicle and for some f'ed-up reason the IP223s would not recognize COR logic. Using VOX RX qualification resulted in unacceptable RX delays and a ~3 second keying time when patching resources.

Oh, and it's getting replaced with... a 2 OP MCC 7100 setup.

motorola_otaku wrote:

Bill_G wrote:You could use a Telex CSoft console coupled with an IP224. Each IP224 supports to radios. Get the MotoTrbo interface for the IP224 if you want the advanced features of a Trbo.

What has your experience with the C-Soft/IP223 setup been like. We had one in a mobile command vehicle and for some f'ed-up reason the IP223s would not recognize COR logic. Using VOX RX qualification resulted in unacceptable RX delays and a ~3 second keying time when patching resources.

Oh, and it's getting replaced with... a 2 OP MCC 7100 setup.

IP223 COR works perfect ... IF someone set up the internal jumpers correctly. The IP223 came from the school of "take the lid off and set the berg jumpers" for basic things line line impedance, single ended or balanced, etc. and COR is affected by the jumper settings. Telex has a ton of application notes on how to interface to numerous makes and models of radios on their web site, and every new product comes with a CD with the complete selection of product manuals and app notes. Once the jumpers are correct, you set the COR polarity and delays in the IP223 configuration with a web browser. Obviously, the radio programming has to agree with the IP223, but even that is outlined in their app notes.

The IP224 does everything through the web interface. You don't have to move any jumpers to preset the unit.

CSoft isn't interested in COR. It just wants to know the ip addy of the IP223/224 so it can talk to it. CSoft is all about the gui. IP223/224 is all about the hardware.

Their VOX works pretty good too if you set the threasholds correctly. They call it LAM (line activated monitor). It does a good job on radios that don't provide a carrier det or PL det line of any kind. You can set the attack and decay delays to prevent falsing which throws people off. They confuse it with the RX and TX delays you apply for network latency. On PL protected radios, you can get the LAM to act pretty snappy. CSQ is a different matter. Then you want to have the radio squelch, and the LAM threashold set to open the console audio when voice is present without spitting on silence or random noise bursts. But, that's a universal problem with VOX.

I was reminded of a radio that requires IP223 LAM to function correctly. The XPR4350 mobile in digital mode does not provide carrier det. You have to use LAM in the IP223, and set the threashold at -30db. Works fine especially since digital has no background noise or artifact at low signal levels. It's "fully quieted" all the way to the rx sense limit.

Bill_G wrote:I was reminded of a radio that requires IP223 LAM to function correctly. The XPR4350 mobile in digital mode does not provide carrier det. You have to use LAM in the IP223, and set the threashold at -30db. Works fine especially since digital has no background noise or artifact at low signal levels. It's "fully quieted" all the way to the rx sense limit.

P sure it does have the equivalent of COR

At least the repeaters do... in digital... even though no audio or PTT works... "working as intended" says the "engineers"... quite lame if you want a mixed mode repeater on 440 sending analog over 420 links and digital sending over IPSC

Can anyone give me ballpark figures for a K1/K2 core (8 tone remote transmitters) and 4 MCC7100 positions? It has been suggested to me that the price for this could be very comparable to an MCC 5500.

those xpr mobiles with recent firmware should all provide a COR type signal in digital mode. The earlier versions of firmware this function didnt work properly, but that was fixed along the way.

bsmanwaring wrote:Can anyone give me ballpark figures for a K1/K2 core (8 tone remote transmitters) and 4 MCC7100 positions? It has been suggested to me that the price for this could be very comparable to an MCC 5500.

$100-150k for 2 OPs, a conventional site controller, two CCGWs, and a handful of APX consolettes. HGAC contract pricing.

FMROB wrote:those xpr mobiles with recent firmware should all provide a COR type signal in digital mode. The earlier versions of firmware this function didnt work properly, but that was fixed along the way.

Maybe I'm taking it off the wrong pin. I'll check my work. thx

Bill_G wrote:

FMROB wrote:those xpr mobiles with recent firmware should all provide a COR type signal in digital mode. The earlier versions of firmware this function didnt work properly, but that was fixed along the way.

Maybe I'm taking it off the wrong pin. I'll check my work. thx

PL/TG Detect

They don't call it COR anymore

lol, that is it. Bill, just make certain the firmware isn't ancient.

I almost had a chance to look at a codeplug (holding fingers together with a teensy air gap between them) .... and then got on a service call. But, I'll be checking it, and checking fw level.

I'll echo Bill's comments for the IP223 and COR. You need the app notes for the particular radio, for sure, as there are 10-12 standard 2-pin jumpers, and potentially even some solder pad jumpers, that need to be confirmed/changed for proper operation.

I like the IP223 as it has a handy hangtime timer, during which it ignores the COR signals, so you can eliminate the 'ping pong' effect when bridging two repeaters or even two trunking systems. We have several bridging talkgroups between a NexEdge and SmartZone system, works great.

motorola_otaku wrote:

bsmanwaring wrote:Can anyone give me ballpark figures for a K1/K2 core (8 tone remote transmitters) and 4 MCC7100 positions? It has been suggested to me that the price for this could be very comparable to an MCC 5500.

$100-150k for 2 OPs, a conventional site controller, two CCGWs, and a handful of APX consolettes. HGAC contract pricing.

WRONG. You STILL need a full on Astro25 master site, even if it's a "miniaturized" version, otherwise you have no means to program the OP's, no place to store the CDM, no place to store the alias database, etc.

It's an EXPENSIVE and LARGE investment to go MCC7500, even if it's just for a couple of OP's.

Remember, a $500 PC from Motorola costs $5000. I'd say minimum cost for a two op MCC7500 is ~$400k+, and I'm probably still ridiculously low.

And it has it's share of failures/issues.

d119 wrote:
WRONG. You STILL need a full on Astro25 master site, even if it's a "miniaturized" version, otherwise you have no means to program the OP's, no place to store the CDM, no place to store the alias database, etc.

It's an EXPENSIVE and LARGE investment to go MCC7500, even if it's just for a couple of OP's.

Remember, a $500 PC from Motorola costs $5000. I'd say minimum cost for a two op MCC7500 is ~$400k+, and I'm probably still ridiculously low.

And it has it's share of failures/issues.

That used to be the case circa 2009. Recently they have scaled down to simplify the consoles and conventional aspects to compete with others.

Redundant K core starts at $45k-ish (List), then add options.

Figure adding $25k per position for consoles for hardware.

Add Motorola Engineering, ST, PM, installation, add-on #1, add-on #2 and I bet it's closer to the $150k mark. After government discounts, Motorola Gold Elite Trade-in option... seems about right.

The MINUTE you add the word "trunking" THEN you will look at a minimum of $300k for a basic L core, but expect higher.

If you're not "married" to Motorola, Avtec is where I would head...

tpg

The Pager Geek wrote:

d119 wrote:
WRONG. You STILL need a full on Astro25 master site, even if it's a "miniaturized" version, otherwise you have no means to program the OP's, no place to store the CDM, no place to store the alias database, etc.

It's an EXPENSIVE and LARGE investment to go MCC7500, even if it's just for a couple of OP's.

Remember, a $500 PC from Motorola costs $5000. I'd say minimum cost for a two op MCC7500 is ~$400k+, and I'm probably still ridiculously low.

And it has it's share of failures/issues.

That used to be the case circa 2009. Recently they have scaled down to simplify the consoles and conventional aspects to compete with others.

Redundant K core starts at $45k-ish (List), then add options.

Figure adding $25k per position for consoles for hardware.

Add Motorola Engineering, ST, PM, installation, add-on #1, add-on #2 and I bet it's closer to the $150k mark. After government discounts, Motorola Gold Elite Trade-in option... seems about right.

The MINUTE you add the word "trunking" THEN you will look at a minimum of $300k for a basic L core, but expect higher.

If you're not "married" to Motorola, Avtec is where I would head...

tpg

I guess I'm behind the times pretty significantly then. What's the new "condensed" version consist of? How does it work, and how is the database programmed? What's the "core" called?