Startup cost for your own trunking system?

chipjumper · Post by **chipjumper** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:58 am

How much do you guys think it would cost to start your own trunking system using used equipment bought from discount sources like eBay?

What components are need? Is there an old topic on something like this (i couldn't find one)?

Post by **Wowbagger** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 12:03 pm

Define what you mean by "Trunking system" - a single Ham repeater is a "trunking system" as much as a single channel LTR system.

How many voice channels? How many sites? How many mobiles?

What trunking protocol? Do you want to do your own maintainance, or farm it out?

If you have more than one site, do you want to link the sites? If so, by landline or RF?

chipjumper · Post by **chipjumper** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 12:10 pm

Ok, preferbly a Motorola Type II system (or Type I), 1 site, 5 voice channels (if thats sufficient for a start of 100 subscribers). No links yet.

Is there a web page with info regarding all of this?

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 12:55 pm

One site, 5 channels, using Quantars and a SmartNet controller, should cost on the order of $100,000 - $125,000 exclusive of:

Site rental and any costs of site connection equipment (combiners, etc.).

Engineering.

Licensing.

Remote control infrastructure and leased line costs.

Mobile and portable equipment.

Contingency.

Note that one of your five channels will be dedicated as a control channel, so that you will have only 4 voice channels. Depending upon how many talkgroups your 100 users are divided into, this may or may not be enough voice channels.

Single siting an 800 system can mean a limited service territory, depending on the site characteristics. 800 does not propagate like VHF and is twice as susceptible to foliation attenuation as UHF.

Post by **batdude** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 3:12 pm

there are several "turn key" systems out there to be had.

the last 900 system that was an open bid with no reserve went for around $13,000. on ebay

that was a 10 channel type II privacy plus system

and BTW, unless you are already licensed, 900 is the only place you are going to get any channels for trunking.....

doug

chipjumper · Post by **chipjumper** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:41 pm

I was aiming for 900Mhz...Wow, $13,000 for a turn key isn't bad! There is a Zetron LTR controller on eBay for like $450...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... tegory=296

I guess I'm out of the trunking business now. I don't think I have $100,000 yet to shell out. I wonder how much it would cost to "throw" one together using old maxtrac/gtx's, amps, and other eBay bought items

Regardless, I want to put up a 900 amatuer repeater by the end of the year.

KG6EAQ · Post by **KG6EAQ** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:58 pm

You could probably get everything but the controller pretty cheap. I don't see many cheap LTR radios, but tons of cheap I/II's. Then I see almost no I/II controllers

Post by **wavetar** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 5:31 pm

chipjumper wrote: I wonder how much it would cost to "throw" one together using old maxtrac/gtx's, amps, and other eBay bought items

You won't be "throwing" any type of Motorola trunked system together with items such as you mentioned above. Only Micor, MSF5000, MTR2000 or Quantar repeaters can be used in the various flavours of Motorola trunked systems.
Your best bet for a controller would likely be a "Startsite" unit. Small, 'Desktrac' sized controller. 5-channel maximum capacity, can be firmware programmed for Type I/II/IIi operation. No SmartNet features. I have looked into acquiring a few in the past, and they seem to be around $5000 U.S. or less. Can only interface to MTR2000 or MSF5000 repeaters though, as far as I know. Then there's the issue of getting a 'codeplug' blown for the unit. Approx $750 U.S. from Motorola.
The easiest repeater to use would be the MTR2000, since they can be programmed to whatever frequency you desire in the band. No crystals or retuning like the other repeaters (Well, the Quantar would be the same, but much more expensive). Not sure what kind of price you'd be looking at for those used...bank on around $3000 or so. The MSF5000 ('digital' version) would be my next choice. Still RSS programmable, but tuning is required.
Then there's the RF combining & multicoupling equipment. Assuming you could find the right stuff in the correct frequency ranges....still pricey even used. Bet on a couple thousand, maybe less.
Not to mention everything RKG said as well...

Todd

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:29 pm

A "Startsite" system is, in my judgment, poor economics, since unless you really know that your system won't grow, the 5-channel limitation is something you will quickly outgrow. At that point you have to orphan the controller and start spending afresh for something with more capability. Experience says that there are few systems that are simultaneously: (a) large enough to warrant the capital costs of trunking in the first place, but (b) small enough that they won't quickly outgrow the 5-channel limitation.

In any trunked system, it is imperative that all of the repeaters be of the same type, same firmware, and (in my opinion, though others disagree) of approximately the same date of manufacture. Don't forget that at least one machine, and potentially any of the machines, must be capable of 24/7 key down "continuous duty." The only station I've ever seen that could really do that is the Quantar, though I've been told by folks I consider reliable that the MTR can as well provided only one MTR is mounted in a cabinet.

In the right circumstances, trunked radio can really work miracles in terms of spectrum efficiency. I have in mind one system that, with only 28 channel pairs, covers an entire state, with over 275 talkgroups, over 5,000 user IDs, some fascinating capabilities for dynamic patching and unpatching for special events, and for at least the public safety tier of users, not a single "busy signal" (channel request denied; no channels available) in more than 5 years. But the mistake I see (or hear about) most people making is investing the high cost of trunking for smaller applications that could be serviced with equal effectiveness and far greater fiscal economy using a well-designed conventional system.

motisking · Post by **motisking** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:39 pm

LTR is a good option for an expensive solution when one site will give enough coverage. With the money saved, when compared to a Motorola format you can get the great little portables like EX600XLS or even the HT1250 LS and use MDC1200 signaling for advanced calling and alerting.

Motorola does offer "staged" systems which come from Motorola configured, programmed and tuned to your specs. We have done 4 of these systems in the last year with great results.

motor59 · Post by **motor59** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:10 pm

Here's something else to consider-

Channel loading.

Seems to me that in order to get the FCC to grant you the 5 channels you're going to need to get started, you are going to need 500 subscriber units in the first two years (100/channel).

Or am I wrong about that?

OX · Post by OX » Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:14 pm

Don't forget, should you actually become able to purchase 800 frequencies from the FCC, you could always plan on Nextel's future expansion in your area and sell the equipment and frequencies to Nextel for more than they would pay the FCC for them. Just a thought....

There must be some major profit to be made by selling your customer base and your licenses to Nextel, or else the SMR's wouldn't have done that.

If you plan your system well and obtain a good tower site, your coverage will be very good. A local SMR before selling out and shutting down ran a single site from downtown and I could use my portable from about 35-40 miles from the tower.

Jonathan KC8RYW · Post by **Jonathan KC8RYW** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:47 pm

If, for shits and giggles, you were wanting to make a 33cm ham trunked system, you would have to use LTR.

LTR is frequency independant, whereas Motorola trunking has the frequencies "hard wired" in.

Neat thing about LTR is this: you can run both conventional AND LTR on the same repeater. I wouldn't recommend this on the "home" repeater though.

MO_TRASHER · Post by **MO_TRASHER** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:54 am

bubbasnest wrote:Don't forget, should you actually become able to purchase 800 frequencies from the FCC, you could always plan on Nextel's future expansion in your area and sell the equipment and frequencies to Nextel for more than they would pay the FCC for them. Just a thought....

There must be some major profit to be made by selling your customer base and your licenses to Nextel, or else the SMR's wouldn't have done that.

Must be.....I've worked for two SMR operators that sold their "souls" to the "Evil Empire". ........Ya know...money talks...BS walks.

Glad someone else thinks LTR is a good format. LTR is the least expensive system protocol to build.
Controllers are available from many sources, Zetron and IDA just to name a couple.
Radio equipment is also available from a larger pool of vendors, keeping prices down.

Post by **wavetar** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:17 am

RKG wrote:A "Startsite" system is, in my judgment, poor economics, since unless you really know that your system won't grow, the 5-channel limitation is something you will quickly outgrow. At that point you have to orphan the controller and start spending afresh for something with more capability. Experience says that there are few systems that are simultaneously: (a) large enough to warrant the capital costs of trunking in the first place, but (b) small enough that they won't quickly outgrow the 5-channel limitation.
.

You are thinking in terms of public use. There are thousands of Startsite (or it's 7-channel SmartNet equivalent, SmartWorks) systems in use today world-wide. When you have a plant or other facility with a relatively static number of users, it makes perfect economic sense to only order what you need...be it 2 channels (a local casino and several hotels around here) or the maximum 5 (3 tire plants in the province). Motorola wouldn't make the product unless the demand was there.

Todd

chipjumper · Post by **chipjumper** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:26 am

Can HAM's actually have a trunked system (multichannel)? There is a Zetron controller on there for $450...i should pick it up...

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:54 am

I agree that StartSite might make sense for a factory, large retail store, or high rise building, where the physical structure if nothing else ensures that one can accurate determine the potential for future growth of the system. And, yes, my focus is municipal use since that is what I see most often.

Jonathan: Motorola systems do not hard code any frequencies in the field units (mobiles and portables) other than the control channel(s). The field units get their info on the voice channel frequency from the OSW on each channel grant. This is one of the neat features of the system: voice channels can be added or deleted from a zone on the fly, without the need to reach out and program field units.

W4WTF · Post by **W4WTF** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 8:06 am

With 100 users, is trunking even worth it over conventional?

Sometimes teh simplest solutions are the best.

Post by **wavetar** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 8:12 am

KF4PEP wrote:With 100 users, is trunking even worth it over conventional?

Sometimes teh simplest solutions are the best.

It really depends on the customer. You can have 1000 radios, all on the same channel. In this case, you certainly don't need trunking. Another client may only have 60 radios, but demand 10 unique user groups. In this case, trunking makes sense, as the alternative is 10 seperate repeaters (assuming they turn down a 'community repeater' type set-up).

Todd

Jonathan KC8RYW · Post by **Jonathan KC8RYW** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 8:44 am

chipjumper wrote:Can HAM's actually have a trunked system (multichannel)? There is a Zetron controller on there for $450...i should pick it up...

Personally, I wouldn't waste your money.

CTAMontrose · Post by **CTAMontrose** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 9:01 am

A buddy of mine and i discussed the posibility of a Ham Trunked system.. i believe it can be MADE to be legal, but would require some workarounds. For example, on a Type II system, not all the repeaters ID with the station callsign, and would the control channel's continuous transmitting of data be considered "broadcasting".

I think an LTR could be made to be legal, as long as all repeaters were equipped with CWID.

KA0SQO · Post by **KA0SQO** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:00 pm

grem467 wrote:A buddy of mine and i discussed the posibility of a Ham Trunked system.. i believe it can be MADE to be legal, but would require some workarounds. For example, on a Type II system, not all the repeaters ID with the station callsign, and would the control channel's continuous transmitting of data be considered "broadcasting".

I think an LTR could be made to be legal, as long as all repeaters were equipped with CWID.

Im already working on an LTR based ham 5-channel narrow band system to work in 70CM with the capability to use conventional inputs as well and basing it around TNT and IDA LTR controllers. With LTR there is no real "control" channel that is dedicated to control data so this eliminates the "broadcast" issues. Control data is sent out via the "home channel" and throughout the channel lineup so its not frequency dependant. The only issue so far for me will be combining narrowband channels to single sticks for Tx and Rx, the idea of multiple sticks is a recepe for intermod and receive issues.
All TNT and IDA panels will do CW-ID but they also send out "idle" messages, a short kerchunk to let the mobiles know the system is still alive. Its more like a systemwide heartbeat.

Motorola CDM-1250LS, 1550LS and 1250LS portables will do LTR trunking both wide and narrowband along with Kenwood TK-880's and a few off-brands. No you cant do LTR with your yaesu memorizer or Mocom-70... What other Motos to do LTR in the UHF band I dont know of, the only exception was the bastardized Maxtracs that used an aftermarket PROM but they were 800 and not very reliable or friendly.

KAØSQO

chipjumper · Post by **chipjumper** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:40 pm

I think I'll save up and launch a commercial DSTAR system...

thehead7 · Post by **thehead7** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 10:39 pm

A trunking control channel would be as much of a broadcast as the ARRLs CW practice transmissions. A control channel is meant to send information to specific stations. It is therefore not broadcast.

That's just my take on the rules.

-Head

PETNRDX · Post by **PETNRDX** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 11:02 pm

I think many people get hung up on the term "broadcasting". If you use the term too strictly, it would preclude things like the ARRL bulletins, ALL beacons, REVERSE Autopatch (I personally think THOSE are against the rules), or any transmission not meant for a specific person(licensed station). You are broadcasting if you send even a short transmission INTENDED for reception by NON-licensed stations. If you are sending transmissions meant only for reception, or control, or linking of HAM sytems, it should not be a problem. I belive that any of the trunking formats would be legal, as long as the pre-mentioned ID issues were solved, and I think that would be easy. If one were concerned about a control channel transmiting all the time, its just like a beacon, or a dedicated control link transmitting voted receiver info.(voting tones) and there are several systems doing that. And as I and many others have done in the past, if you need an opinion on it (permission) inquire of the FCC and they will certainly tell us one way or the other. I would like to see some trunking systems, especially on 900.

k3td · Post by **k3td** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:10 pm

When I worked for E. F. Johnson in Eden Prairie, Minnesota in the early 1990s, we had several 440 MHz ham repeaters in Southeastern MN that were linked together and interfaced with MultiNet controllers. It was a neat network for experimenting, but would not have been practical if we had been required to pay for it with our own $$$.

Startup cost for your own trunking system?

Startup cost for your own trunking system?

Specifiy some parameters

hmmm

LTR