Expiring System Keys and new Key format???

FMROB · Post by **FMROB** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 7:30 am

Expiring system keys, Flash Upgrades, etc. etc.

Huh,,,,Moto is really putting the crunch on hacker(s)...And taking the fun out of radio. It is absolutely coming nothing short of very rapidly close to an end for any way for hobbist to be at the same technology level as the public service agencies. Public safety agencies are rapidly adopting the new emerging technology, and it is all coming a mile a minute. So where does it all leave us, spending mega money to even be able to listen?

Just a thought.

But the real reason for the post is has anyone heard about expiring system keys???Or the ability to use a new system key format and not allowing the use of the "standard system key."

ExKa|iBuR · Post by **ExKa|iBuR** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:31 am

Well, if the idea of encrypting the control channel were to happen...that'd spell the end. Period.

Hopefully that doesn't happen :S

-Mike

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 11:38 am

The issue that will stop scanner hobbyists, and the like, is encryption. The first phase in the big metro public safety depts was (and is) converting to digital. The next inevitable step is encryption. In Seattle, for instance, they spent $70 million on a big regional Puget Sound Area 800 ASTRO System about 5 years ago. The radios have recently begun to be uplifted from analog to IMBE, and as they go through the various agencies fleets, they are gradually encrypting these radios (as they are being uplifted to IMBE), with a target date of 4Q2004 to be fully encrypted. Eventually (and I believe much sooner than many expect) this will kill the scanner hobby for folks in the large metro areas (albeit, you could probably still listen to the local wrecker company, etc).

Larry

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:39 pm

ASTROMODAT wrote:The issue that will stop scanner hobbyists, and the like, is encryption. The first phase in the big metro public safety depts was (and is) converting to digital. The next inevitable step is encryption. In Seattle, for instance, they spent $70 million on a big regional Puget Sound Area 800 ASTRO System about 5 years ago. The radios have recently begun to be uplifted from analog to IMBE, and as they go through the various agencies fleets, they are gradually encrypting these radios (as they are being uplifted to IMBE), with a target date of 4Q2004 to be fully encrypted. Eventually (and I believe much sooner than many expect) this will kill the scanner hobby for folks in the large metro areas (albeit, you could probably still listen to the local wrecker company, etc).

Larry

You're quite correct. Nobody likes being monitored. In the past, the cities didn't go 100% crypto because they lost range and voice quality, and the cost was quite high. Now, with P25, you lose nothing by going crypto, and the price is getting cheaper and cheaper per-unit.

Not every agency will do this. Some, like Maricopa Co. (if memory serves), said they wouldn't go digital until a digital-capable scanner was available on the market. Enlightened agencies like these will still have crypto available for SWAT/ERT, etc., but won't use it all the time.

Essentially, some municipalities will go away. Some scannists will find the inside hookup the get the right keys to monitor the system anyway. Some cities will go whiz-bang digital trunking but won't go crypto, at least 100%. A *lot* of them, who are still using 20+ year old radios right now, won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

I know several municipalities that are doing good to afford used HT1000s and Maxtracs to put on their wideband VHF analog repeater. They can buy 20 radios that work just fine for their needs for the cost of one tricked-out XTL5000 or XTS5000...

Things will go away, but there will always be things to listen to...

Post by **batdude** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:43 pm

to my knowledge, orange county communist state of hasta la vista and jacksonville, florida are the only police departments that are 100% secure all the time... even the zone dispatch channels are secure (astro des-ofb)

i agree about the radio and voice quality vs. cost argument.

heck, the price difference "back in the day" between a secure MSF and a plain jane MSF was like $10k... not to mention being forced into (?) the saber line of portables....at about $3k a pop (compared to a $1100 MT1000)

doug

ExKa|iBuR · Post by **ExKa|iBuR** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 1:17 am

Niagara Regional Police, Niagara Parks Police and the London Police Department are fulltime encrypted as well.

-Mike

2wayfreq · Post by **2wayfreq** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 1:17 pm

Thats ok...its a two-way street. They wont hear me either. Its only fair.

Elroy Jetson · Post by **Elroy Jetson** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 6:25 pm

I'm still waiting for the first legal challenge from a scanning enthusiast, aimed at an agency that encrypts all its traffic.

It has always been evident to me that we the people have a right to know what our EMPLOYEES are doing, at least in terms of their routine activities as they enforce OUR laws.

Sooner or later, such a legal challenge will be issued. Should be interesting to watch the proceedings.

Police should accept the fact that they ARE being monitored by some of the public, and it's the ones that really don't like that fact that are, in my opinion, the very reason WHY I choose to monitor them. People who desire secrecy and are on the public payroll are probably up to no good, and bear watching.

Elroy

Post by **xmo** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 8:54 pm

"I'm still waiting for the first legal challenge from a scanning enthusiast, aimed at an agency that encrypts all its traffic...."
_______________________________________________________________

With HIPPA, privacy concerns, and post 9-11 homeland defense on the side of public safety - the scanner dudes don't stand a snowballs chance...

Now the media may be another issue. Most agencies I have talked to about encrypting their primary dispatch traffic are willing to enter into MOU's with the media for just those dispatch talkgroups with no access to tactical comms.

Elroy Jetson · Post by **Elroy Jetson** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:32 am

I say the people should always stand a snowball's chance!

Who's flippin' country is this, anyway? The people's, or the government's?

The answer is obvious.

Elroy

ASTRO_25 · Post by **ASTRO_25** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:55 am

With HIPPA, privacy concerns, and post 9-11 homeland defense on the side of public safety - the scanner dudes don't stand a snowballs chance...

I totally disagree. You'd be surprised what a few citizens with legal know-how and a few $$ can do.

There are so many positive benefits to the media, tow-truck drivers, law-abiding citizens, and surrounding agencies being able to monitor their local agencies that at some point end-to-end encryption just isn't going to fly.

For Tac, Swat, and very sensitive operations, encryption is needed. For day to day communications, there will be so many more people that scream bloody murder that most agencies just won't go that route.

Public Safety communications is ALL about interoperability, and if that just goes by the wayside in the name of unfounded 9-11 fear mongering, then you'll find that quite a few people will step up and fight the process very vigorusly.

Encryption in day-to-day public safety operations is absolutely ludicrous to say the least. It's nothing short of removing marked police cars, taking everyone out of uniform, and turning an agency into a secret police force.

N4DES · Post by **N4DES** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 10:19 am

You guys are getting way off track here. The new key with expiration is nothing more than a new system key (either serial or USB) that can be programmed by the system admin. with an expiration date and is used in conjunction with the typical RSS/CPS key. What this means is:
1. If the hardware key gets lost or stolen it won't be good forever
2. If a contract expires with a contracted vendor the key can be set to expire at the conclusion of the contract
3. The current key generator that is owned by some in time will be useless, except to program their own radios, once the new format is widely used, and
4. Once an agency uses this new key format to program its radios they cannot be fooled with by someone who doesn't have to new key format. The radio/cps will act like their is no system key at all and even more security is possible by putting in a password in the codeplug.

As far as the encryption posts...it has its place in PS. If an agency has the funds available to encrypt everything, so be it, but IMO it should be left for the UC, SWAT, and investigative types. There is nothing typicially said on the normal dispatch channels that require full time encryption.

Expiring System Keys and new Key format???

Expiring System Keys and new Key format???

hmmm