Batboard

I am currently putting together a new VHF package for 30 law enforcement units. The old mobile radios are Midland Syntec 1 and XTR units. The agency is going to be starting a UHF digital trunked system in the next few months along with the current VHF system. They are wanting to upgrade the VHF radios. I am looking at the Astro Spectra 110 watt radios for several reasons. I can eliminate the need for the officers to carry two portables radios (UHF, VHF), since the new UHF trunked system will only cover a small portion of the 2100sq miles that includes a mountain range. I am leaning towards using a VRS 750 UHF tied into the VHF Astro Spectra. Plus the siren/PA amp could be installed as well...eliminating clutter. Does anyone have any thoughts on the Astro Spectra radios and/or the VRS 750?

BTW: You think it can be hard just buying a part from M...try getting someone to talk to so you can get an estimate for all of this...

Thanks,
Mark

Motorola has not announced a date for discontinuing their ASTRO Spectra line, but it has already been over-shadowed by their XTL5000 product. The XTL5000 is priced exactly the same as the older ASTRO Spectra radio, and it does a lot more than the ASTRO Spectra. The XTL5000 is their current top-of-the-line radio that will likely live on for 10 years, or perhaps even longer. It is likely their last pre-narrowband high end radio. The ASTRO Spectra might live a little longer, similar to how the Micor took a bit of time to die, as it has been so popular.

I don't understand your comment that there are mountains, etc. and therefore the UHF system will cover but a fraction of the area. You don’t want the officers to have to carry two radios, and you want them to have a VHF radio for use with a UHF vehicular radio. This needs clarification.

In any event, if you are buying a system for 30 LEO users, then I assume this will involve 30 VHF ASTRO portables (one per LEO), plus 10 to 20 ASTRO mobiles (one per car), plus at least one Quantar repeater. That would be 50 X $5,000 (bare minimum, even with a decent discount!), plus perhaps $25,000 for each repeater (not including towers, control point equipment, consoles, etc). You are looking at roughly a $400,000 to $600,000 order with towers and installation. Depending on how many repeaters are involved, you could easily hit a million dollars, or more, if you need several Quantars, and substantial site development is needed.

Although this is small in relation to a very large metro/regional system (e.g., $70 million here in Seattle), it is large enough that your Motorola salesperson will definitely get you a formal quote, and take you very seriously. When you wave $500k to $1M in front of the face of a Motorola salesperson, you will garner their full attention.

Have you formally approached them for a quote?

Larry

Thanks guys, I was not aware M was planning on phasing out the Astro Spectra. This project is going to be messy any way I look at it. The biggest problem is that the federal govt has paid for the UHF digital trunked system that is soon to be on air. But this new system will only cover a small fraction of the county. It is being used between three counties and tons of different public safety agencies that may respond to a government facility in an emergency. Hence the problem being that the remainder of the county is not covered by the new system, and the old VHF system will have to be used when outside the new coverage area. Given the aging Midland radios (which are better paper weights) they want to upgrade their VHF mobile radios. Also since they will be responding for service in two different radio system areas....I can forsee a major problem with trying to pack around two different portable radios! I was thinking of using the VRS (UHF conventional) to tie into the VHF mobile. Thus the UHF portable would be all that they would need to carry.

I have also thought about the Pyramid repeaters as the other possibility. But I'm thinking the vehicular repeater is the way yot go.

We'll see how tomarrow goes for speaking with someone that is willing to sell some equipment.

Mark

It sounds like you have the right idea. Use the UHF radios on trunked when in coverage, then use them conventionally through the VR when out of the coverage area, correct?

If you continue to go this route after your meetings, I highly recommend looking at the Mobex II units made by Futurecom. They are made to directly interface to a W4 Astro Spectra or MCS2000 Model III, inline with a remote head. Here's a blurb from their website:

Provides extended portable radio coverage.
Ready for In-Band or Cross-Band applications.
Operates in VHF/UHF/800 bands (25 or 12.5 kHz channel spacing).
Fully synthesized operation.
Field programmable, up to 64 channels.
Full duplex operation.
Simplex mobile extender version also available.
Supports major Trunking and Conventional Systems.
Field (flash) upgradeable.
Application specific customization available.
Mobile, System, and Local mode of operation.
Seamless interface to a mobile radio through the control head bus.
Local control from a mobile radio control head.
Remotely controlled by a dispatcher.
Remotely controlled by a portable user.
Supports trunking queue tones.
Supports trunking group calls.
Supports trunking individual calls.
Supports emergency calls.
Futurecom’s Mobexcom II radio is designed to be physically linked to a mobile radio, thus providing a vehicular repeater communications interface between potentially far ranging portables and a central dispatch station. The repeater’s mode of operation is selected by:

mobile radio operator from the control head

portable radio operator via DTMF signaling

dispatcher via digital or tone signaling



Three specific modes of operation can be selected:

MOBILE MODE

The MOBILE mode of operation is selected when repeater functions are not desired. The vehicular repeater is completely disabled and the mobile radio system operates as if the repeater was not present. All normal mobile radio operational features remain.


LOCAL REPEAT MODE

The LOCAL mode of operation allows for full communications among nearby portable users and the mobile radio operator. The mobile radio does not retransmit the repeater signals, thus not disturbing any communications that may be on the mobile channel. Signals passing through the vehicular repeater receiver are heard in the mobile speaker and will also be retransmitted by the vehicular repeater transmitter. Incoming signals to the mobile receiver are also heard in the mobile speaker and may be retransmitted by the vehicular repeater, if such an option is selected.

When the mobile user keys the microphone Push-to-Talk, only the vehicular repeater transmitter is enabled. The mobile radio operator has full priority over the vehicular repeater transmitter. The operator has to enter either the MOBILE or SYSTEM mode in order to respond to a mobile signal and transmit over the mobile radio.

SYSTEM REPEAT MODE

The SYSTEM repeat mode is selected when full communications exchange among all radio parties is desired. In this mode both the mobile radio and the vehicular repeater are enabled, permitting communications between portable radio users, the mobile operator and the dispatcher, as well as any other users on the mobile radio channel. The mobile user simultaneously keys both the mobile radio and vehicular repeater transmitters when using the microphone Push-to-Talk.

MOBILE USER REPEATER CONTROLS

The mode of operation for the vehicular repeater is selectable from the mobile control head by the mobile radio operator. From here, the operator can select the desired talk group, the repeater mode and, if required, a new non-default repeater channel. The central dispatcher can optionally be alerted to all setup changes initiated by the mobile radio operator through the use of standard status messages relayed to the central console.

PORTABLE USER CONTROLS

The portable user will be able to turn the vehicular repeater on, in the SYSTEM mode, by pressing a button on the portable radio which automatically sends a preprogrammed DTMF two-digit signal to the repeater. The portable may also have an Emergency Alarm button which will have the capability of sending an Emergency (message) to the repeater. The emergency message may be encoded in several popular formats such as DTMF, MDC1200 or GE Star. From here the signal will travel to the mobile which will automatically generate a trunked or conventional emergency alarm to the network with a mobile ID being displayed at the dispatcher’s console. This entire process will be identical to pressing the emergency button on the mobile radio. In addition, the vehicular repeater will automatically default to SYSTEM mode of operation in the event that it was previously set to LOCAL or MOBILE repeat mode should the Emergency Alarm Button on the portable radio be depressed.

In standard operation, the portable operator gains access to selected talkgroups by pressing the PTT button and then monitoring for the usual trunking acknowledgment tones. Confirmation "trailing tones" are also generated when the PTT button is released to indicate whether or not the transmission was successful. These "trailing tones" may be suppressed if so desired.

DISPATCHER CONTROL AND MONITORING (OPTIONAL)

As mentioned, all repeater modes of operation can be indicated on the dispatcher’s console using standard status messages. This will assist the dispatcher in continuously monitoring the various repeater setup modes.

The dispatcher can override the vehicular repeater mode of operation to a specific mobile by sending a "Call Alert" which, in turn, allows the dispatcher to either change the repeater mode of operation, or disable the repeater entirely. Repetitive sending of the "Call Alert" will allow the dispatcher to toggle through the three repeater states (local, system and repeater off). A status message of acknowledgment, indicating the new mode of operation, will be sent to the dispatcher’s console each time the "Call Alert" is activated.

ADDITIONAL VEHICULAR REPEATER FEATURES

Repeater Enable Notification:

Each time the vehicular repeater is activated, it will transmit three successive single tone (750 Hz) bursts on the portable Rx frequency.

Trunking Tones:

The portable operator accesses the trunking network by pressing the PTT button. Trunking access or deny tones (same frequencies) emanate from the vehicular repeater, providing signal connection acknowledgment to the portable operator. When the PTT button is released "trailing tones" come from the vehicular repeater in the form of "good" or "bad" (system busy) tones to indicate whether or not the transmission was complete. Should the signal be incomplete (perhaps the TOT was exceeded), then a low pitched "bad" tone (304 Hz) will be sent from the vehicular repeater to the portables. If there is no tone at the portable after completing a transmission, this is an indication that the portable is out of range of the active repeater. "Trailing tones" may be disabled, as a programming option, if so desired.

Simulcast Prevention Algorithm:

A proprietary simulcast prevention algorithm is implemented to assure that only one MOBEXCOM in the area is activated by a portable radio transmission.

Mobile Radio Integrity:

The physical removal of a vehicular repeater from a mobile radio system will not have any effect upon the mobile radio’s continued operation.

I think I may finally have gotten somewhere. I spoke with a M salesperson and a tech about our current system and the new digital system. The salesperson had no clue about what they offered, but the tech was very helpful! Now I'm just waiting on the prices....hopefully everything goes well. I chose to stay with the Astro Spectra since it interfaces with the VRS and the siren/PA unit and M can install it all at once and be done with it. The XTL5000 looks nice....but almost too new...and it doesn't interface with the VRS.

Thanks,
Mark

The Futurecom VRS is the best you can put in a vehicle. We use them up here in Ontario for the OPP (Provincial Police), Ministry of Transportation Enforcement, Mininstry of Health (ambulances) and MInistry of Environment on a Province-wide VHF astro smartzone system - they work EXTREMLY well.

-Mike

You might want to double-check with Mother Moto on the VRS. Look at this from Mike's site:

http://www.open.org/%7Eblenderm/spectra/modelssp.html

Looks like the standard Spectra VRS won't work with Astro Spectras.


YMMV



Jack[/url]

If you are going for the Astro line of radio's, make sure you are talking to a Motorola paid sales guy, and not the local two-way guy. The Motorola guy is basically the only you have to deal with, and should be able to get you any answers, even if he doesn't know on the spot. Local tech guys can be helpful depending on their skill, but make syre you are also dealing with a MSS, and not a local radio company that just deals with the low tier stuff. If they don't know how to service a saber or spectra, then look else where...

With that aside, here are some base prices to deal with from my recent quote. Obviously trunking options and higher prices will increase the price. Depening on their trunking, I have heard that basic trunking is like $400, then add about $100 - $200 for each step above that...ie Smartzone $800. I have some older numbers on the trunking cost somewhere.

I would order the XTL5000's as they will have a longer shelf life. XTL's came in $30 more than the Astro Spectra. That's what we did.

Astro Spectra:
50 Watt W5 Remote with DVP-XL, IMBE, Display ID, install and programming: 4070 ea

XTL5000:
Same as above, 4100 ea

UPDATE:
I pulled out the 1996 CSP contract and here are the prices of their equipment...

Astro Spectra:

130W 35W 800 806-870 W4 494 $ 156.00
G51 ENH: ENHANCED SMARTZONE OPERATION 494 $ 720.00
G806 ENH: ASTRO DIGITAL CAI 494 $ 400.00
T99DX ASTRO DIG SPECTRA MOBILE SERIES 494 $ 1,520.00
W484 ALT: 3DB GAIN ANTENNA 494 $ 10.00
UNIT PRICE $ 2,806.00

XTS3000 Mod 2

H09UCF9PW7N
ASTRO DIG XTS 3000 MODEL II 620 $ 1,596.00
H38 SMARTZONE SYSTEM PACKAGE 620 $ 1,200.00
Q806 APCO 25 COMMON AIR INTERFACE 620 $ 400.00
UNIT PRICE $ 3,196.00

Add chargers, batteries etc etc...

In terms of 2004 pricing, I would use $4,000 to $5,000 per IMBE radio for broad budgetary planning purposes. There is a very wide range in pricing, especially if you get into some of the more exotic stuff, such as OTAR, Multi Key, IVSD options, etc. If you need a single figure, I would not use anything below $4,500 per radio, or you will inevitably get caught short.

Remember, in the end, it ALWAYS costs more than you think, a lesson I have been taught for the past many years in running my own business! How many friends do you have that have built a custom home, and NOT wildly overrun their budget?! (unless they were lying!) Same thing here---don't get caught up in using lowball figures!

Larry

Are there photos of the XTL-5000 mobiles in the Bat Lab Gallery ? I didn't find any, but that might be my carelessness.

If not, will anyone suggest a site where I can get a good look at those units which I believe come in both W-5 and W-7 configurations.

Thanks,
Geo

The Spectra, Astro Spectra and XTL heads all look the same. The radio drawer has a logo design, but is basically setup the same. There are preview pictures of the preproduction XTL future heads somewhere here in the Astro forum.

XTL radios and heads are black, whereas the X9000, Spectra, Astro Spectra is in traditional brown. The new plastic seems to fit the older heads (at least I haven't had a problem).

Thanks again for the information.

I had tried to order the W7-XTL faceplate ( Part #1580020S22 ), but the Motorola dealer says it's no longer available, however, the W5 version still seems to be available.

Any leads for obtaining the W7-XTL faceplate either new or in very good used condition?

Thanks,
Geo.

Looks like the new part number is 0180049S12. By the look at the replacement parts, it comes as a whole assembly kind of thing with buttons, etc. MSRP is like $31.

* ASSEMBLY, W7 Front Cover (Mobile), Item 16 includes items 1, 2, 3, 4 or 8, 5, 6, 9, and 10
The item 0180049S08 was replaced by 0180049S12.

ASSEM HSNG CTRL HD
Unit of Measure: 1 EA
Lead time Available Your price Quantity Add to Cart
3 Y 31.00


1. 3880227M04

BUTTON PWR
Unit of Measure: 1 EA
Lead time Available Your price Quantity Add to Cart
3 Y 1.01



2. 3805668X02 * The item 3880009P01 was replaced by 3805668X02.

BUTTON PUSH ROCKER
Unit of Measure: 1 EA
Lead time Available Your price Quantity Add to Cart
3 Y 2.33



3. 3805668X03 * The item 3880009P02 was replaced by 3805668X03.

BUTTON PUSH ROCKER
Unit of Measure: 1 EA
Lead time Available Your price Quantity Add to Cart
3 Y 2.33





4. 0180049S09 * HOUSING, W5 Front Cover (Mobile)
The item 1580020S17 was replaced by 0180049S09.

HSNG CNTRL HD FNT W5 MOB
Unit of Measure: 1 EA
Lead time Available Your price Quantity Add to Cart
3 Y 28.62


5. 3880092J05

KEY BLANK
Unit of Measure: 1 EA
Lead time Available Your price Quantity Add to Cart
3 Y 5.30



6. 3880092J05

KEY BLANK
Unit of Measure: 1 EA
Lead time Available Your price Quantity Add to Cart
3 Y 5.30



7. 0380077M07

SCREW CONTROL HEAD M3X35
Unit of Measure: 1 EA
Lead time Available Your price Quantity Add to Cart
3 Y 5.00





8. 0180049S08 * HOUSING, W7 Front Cover (Mobile)
The item 1580020S16 was replaced by 0180049S08.
0180049S08: Item has been cancelled

HSNG CNTRL HD FNT W7 MOB
Unit of Measure: 1 EA


0180049S10 * HOUSING, W7 Front Cover (Motorcycle)
The item 1580020S18 was replaced by 0180049S10.

HSNG CNTRL HD FNT W7 MOT
Unit of Measure: 1 EA
Lead time Available Your price Quantity Add to Cart
3 Y 28.36



* HOUSING, W7 Front Cover (Motorcycle)
This item is not in your catalog. Please contact us for more information.


* HOUSING, W7 Front Cover (Motorcycle)
This item is not in your catalog. Please contact us for more information.


* HOUSING, W7 Front Cover (Rear)
This item is not in your catalog. Please contact us for more information.




9. 6180017S01

LIGHTPIPE
Unit of Measure: 1 EA
Lead time Available Your price Quantity Add to Cart
3 Y 5.88



10. 7580012S03

KEYPAD
Unit of Measure: 1 EA
Lead time Available Your price Quantity Add to Cart
3 Y 4.61

Thanks, PJ

That's a lot of very good information.

There's something mystic about Motorola numbering, but then, that's not exactly news.

Geo.

I vote for pj to be the new Manager of Parts ID! Give up your daytime job, pj, you're needed in Batlabs Parts ID!

Larry