Batboard

What is the depot's reponse to flat rate service on untagged Astro portables? I have a radio that I obtained personally that is untagged and is a XTS Model III in a Model II case. The radio has a good flashcode and was not hacked. If I sent it it under my agency account would they flat rate repair/ tune it no questions asked?

I doubt you'll have problems if you're a legit agency and the flashcode/model # and serial # match what was in it when the factory built it.

Typically, if a radio doesn't have a tag they'll just print a depot tag for it if its a real radio.

Its hit or miss with parts built radios.

Just don't feel bad if you don't get it back. If you have the original receipt, no problems. No tags and no receipts, it's a krapshoot.

Larry

how can they just keep anyones radio, regardless of tags?

if i was the guy MAKING them i could understand, but what if someone buys a radio on ebay, not knowing where it came from and sends it to get something fixed.. seems like they wouldnt have much of a case against the new owner.

Ya, I don't think that they could just keep someones property. They would be looking at a lot of lawsuits. I'm thinking that even if its a part built radio it's still a motorola radio build with REAL Motorola parts. It would be like Ford or Chevy saying that they cant work on your car cuz you added a Fram air filter and on top of it they are going to keep yoy car.


Dan...

You typiically run into problems with "invailid" flashcodes. More than likely, it would come back with a basic flashcode unless you can prove that it was done that way. Kinda hard to :o about them taking out something that wasn't suppose to be in there to begin with, espicially if it was developed for one or two agencies and your not one of them.

If its a flashcode that is valid, you shouldn't run into a problem, and it will come back with the correct tags. If it doesn't, and you have a legit gripe (not withstanding complaining about an illegal flashcode no longer in there), they should be able to correct that. I ran into that once, had a copy of the radio's codeplug on disk. Sent both back to them, and problem corrected (and new 1MB vocon )

so what happens if your new fancy tagless ebay radio is dead so you decide the best thing to do is to PAY motorola to fix it?

Or you have Astros from the DMRO that needed recased and now need repaired without the original tags? Just wondering how they would handle that. Thanks!!!!

one other thing i did before i sent a radio (AS3) that i was looking to buy into the depot for service was to call MOTo and ask them to run the serial # in their database to see if it was reported stolen. They emailed me back and stated it was also "ok" I also ran the radio thru NCIC to make sure i was ok there. I bought the radio and they flat rated the unit probably put in a grand (retail) in parts into it and sent it back to me. NOW it came back tuned and working the balls BUT from a loaded H38 it came back H35 WTF!!! now luckily i worked for a moto shop and i spent a day or two complaining and with TREMENDOUS reluctance moto agreed to flash it to what i wanted which was astro smartzone. this was not easy as i said they did it but i must of hit the right people on the right day, if you send a radio in and are not tied to any big shop or agency good luck!!! they will flat rate it but the flash will come back plane jane that i am more than 80% sure.



good luck

So, in other words it's often a flat rate plus whatever another flash costs.

That doesn't sound like much of a deal to me. Maybe they should just make the flat rate $800 or so and call it good?


mancow

Now you can start to see why eBay radios are so apparently "cheap." No tags, sometimes the radio doesn't come back (good luck hiring a lawyer, at YOUR expense). If you get it back, you get a Plain Jane FLASH (no IMBE, no trunking, etc.). Re-FLASH it legitamately---fine. Figure on almost $2,000. Now you are right back to what it's true market value is. A new ASTRO portable is $4k to $5k. An eBay piece of junk with no tags is $1k. As soon as it breaks, be ready for a $2k bill (now you've spent $3k) if you want a perfectly working ASTRO radio.

As my Econ Prof used to say, "There's no such thing as a free lunch." And, there's no such thing as a great eBay IMBE radio for $1k.

Now there is the $1270 XTS 1500 (brand new!), with IMBE. And there will soon be the el-cheapo ASTRO dash mount for a similar price. These may be some good buys...

Larry

Sounds closely related to the EBay/Intellectual Property thread in the General board http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.php?t=37849

From what I can surmise, you might own the radio and unless it was stolen, they'll have to physically return it to you, but they own the IP within it and control what is done with it and how it is transferred (or cloned or parts built...). If they cannot trace the provenance of the radio and verify that everything matches, they can claim their IP rights might have been infringed and give you just enough for a functional basic radio.

Sounds a lot like the closed-source software industry, with an added level of control in that you also build (and fix) the hardware.

Dan
VE4EOD

They can't keep the radio. That's plain and simple theft.

They could send it back to you with a really basic flashcode, but that's about it.

If they have a good and valid reason to believe it is stolen, they sure as heck can (and will) keep your eBay gem! And, remember that under the Law, possession typically accounts for 90% of the argument. Good luck on Attorney fees of $175+/Hr to get your eBay untagged junk back.

Larry

i dont see how legally they can keep your radio on a "we think".

if that ever got before a judge they would have to prove its stolen alot more than "your honor, we think its stolen, so we are keeping it."

if it has no serial numbers and cant be read in RSS, they have no way of knowing WHERE it came from, therefore couldnt prove beyond a reasonable doubt to anyone that is in fact stolen.

huge difference between 'we think' and 'it is'

one other point, even if it WAS and they could prove it, motorola wouldnt be the one that it was stolen from, it would be whatever agency it came from.. so again, if motorola kept it (without returning to the victum agency) then they are merely stealing it from you.

if someone steals my car and takes it to the dealer for service, the dealer cant keep MY car. yes, they could get the police involved and notify the person the car was stolen from, but the dealer couldnt even press charges as they have NOTHING to do with the original crime.

all that even assumes the radio IS stolen, not just parts built.

Depending on the model type, there are internal physical serial tags inside the radio's chassis. Second, the internal serial number can be read by the CPS. Again, possession is 90% of the issue. You better believe the Repair Depot will keep your eBay gem (if it is stolen). Yes, you can hire an Attorney and attempt to eventually get it back. Good luck, and hopefully you won't spend quite all of your Hawaii vacation fund on your Attorney's fees. I'm sure your wife will be pleased about that wise eBay "great deal" purchase...

Larry

grem467 wrote:if it has no serial numbers and cant be read in RSS, they have no way of knowing WHERE it came from, therefore couldnt prove beyond a reasonable doubt to anyone that is in fact stolen.

so in other words, destroy the controller to the point they cant read it, and peel off all internal numbers FIRST.

i agree that IF its stolen they can notify the athorities and turn it over to whomever..

im just saying that they cant do it unless they can PROVE its stolen.. the law doesnt work on the premise of "we think" and "pretty sure", it works on "prove it based upon evidence.." ie running the serial number..

i highly doubt 123ABC1234 is on the "stolen from xx" list

lets put aside the whole "sum of the parts" thing and say i ordered the parts and built my radio... is it stolen? no

would they not like my radio? sure

do they have the right to kill my whored out flash that would be in it? perhaps... they DO retain rights to ANY software after all..

bottom line, if i paid for the individual parts, and assembled a radio, then they have NO legal right to keep a radio on the premise of "we didnt assign it a number because we didnt do the assembly"

First off, no matter how one approaches the issue, the posession of property of another is theft.
Motorola is not an authorized law enforcement agency, nor are they legally able to decide the disposition of property that is not theirs. Regardless if it was manufactured by circle-M, does not invoke property rights upon them by mere posession.
Lawyers notwithstanding, how much TV coverage would it take to bring out the bottom feeders over a property theft suit brought about over "M" taking the rightful property of another without legal purchase?
Since my Systems Saber was "originally" programmed with Con-6, and now prog'd with Con-7, does this mean if I sent the radio in for service, that Circle-M now has some "legal" right to keep my property without my consent, and without compensation?
If they do, the auto companies are behind times, and we all now own nothing, but simply rent.....NO!

IP rights cover "software", which in my understanding, is a format that is a usable program that is loaded into a computer to perform a specific task or tasks, controlled by the user. A radio's CORE/COPE is not software, but the end result of the action/s performed by the software.

What court in the nation would allow a company to steal and not get punished for the act?
Money is not the issue, but the finer point of "legality", which is a federal right retained by the people, and I doubt could be wiped away for the sake of corporate interests alone, to that, there is no precedent, and therefroe, no case...Return the friggin' radio Circle-M....Court adjourned!
Oh...and pay the defendant $7.5 million and damages...

Thank you for the rant space.....</flame off>

AEC,

Well said, I applaud you!

Whether or not they have the legal right means jack.

It's a question of who's got the most money and who's attorneys have the largest power. Does the average hobbiest really have thousands of dollars to spend to hire his own lawyers just to get back a radio that maybe cost $500-900? If so, then they should have just buy a legit radio in the first place. And I doubt any TV station would take up a story about Motorola withholding someone's radio that was not legitimate radio in the first place.

im sure you wouldnt have a hard time finding a lawyer that would do it pro-bono.

think of the free advertising and promotion that atty would get for taking on big M and standing up for the little guy

I have sent in a parts built XTS3000. It had the full fashcode when it left. It came back with tags, a depot S/N (326DPTxxxx), and a BASIC flash, with analog only DSP. That was in November of 2003.

Now I just heard in the last few days that someone who had a Nick radio got a letter from Motorola's legal team. They WANT the radio sent to them! Now I'm not going to name any names, but that can't be the first, or last letter like that.

Jim.

n7maq wrote:w I just heard in the last few days that someone who had a Nick radio got a letter from Motorola's legal team. They WANT the radio sent to them! Now I'm not going to name any names, but that can't be the first, or last letter like that.

I heard the same thing. I'd be quite interested in seeing this letter..Anyone?

Are they expecting people to start to mail radios in?

I guess i am lucky that that SKUMBAG never sent me a radio and just my 925.00$ I would hate to have gotten a nasty-gram and been forced to send in my radio.

I know this may be a little off topic, but I must say that I am warming up to Kenwood and their customer service. I hag a kenwod radio that I wanted to hook up a tone remote adaptor to, well I called kenwood expecting to get the "moto" brush off, well not only was the tech nice, he sent me the service/repair manual on PDF and saved me the money of buying the kit to bring out the wires they needed. the tech said that if i did not fear a soldering iron and could read a schematic I could do the job and save $40.00 thinkkat when kenwood developes good P-25 radio for the public saftey market "M" is in deep poop.

you mean like these??



http://www.kenwood.iwce-mrt.com/

grem467 wrote: I highly doubt 123ABC1234 is on the "stolen from xx" list

OK, since I am tired of seeing and hearing about these radio's, here's the deal on them.......

M had a fire last year at it's Schaumburg facility, the one that warehouses and does R&D on the XTS5000's, as well as a couple of other models.

The sprinkler system put out the fire, the sprinkler system made M claim damage to all the radio's in the facility. Insurance paid off, and all the radio's 3-5K of them, were sold for scrap, some had water damage, some did not.

All the radio's stored at the warehouse that are for future sale are pre-built and all have the 123ABC1234 serial # and a basic IMBE flash. Some of the unit that were in evaluation had been given serial #'s and flash codes. Almost all of these radio's were 800 and VHF.

Ever notice on a new Motorola product, that the box has 2 labels, one with the basic radio imformation, the other with the flash and options, think about why there are 2 labels, the 2nd one goes on after the flashcode the customer ordered is put in it, it is at that time the serial # is generated and a serial # tag is made as well.

And by some of the members here paying 500 and up for a radio that was bought for $2 a pound, you are just creating a problem by feeding the goof that bought this equipment for scrap. Pretty soon, when you send your radio in with it's goofy serial #, you won't get it back.

Furthermore, each radio has a unique ESN #, and regardless if you have 3-5K radio's with the same serial #, it can be traced back to the scrap bin via the ESN.

As I said in a previous post, these are good working radio's, but are good for parts only. You get what you pay for.... PERIOD.

So no, those radio's are not stolen, they are registered as scrap, send it in, I will bet M says it has water damage and will quote you what it will cost to fix, bet on a 2K bill for that operation.

Buy a scanner, it's cheaper, legal and no one will question you about it.

Schools out, hope everyone learned something.

SG

thank you SG for putting that to rest, i have heard several versions of what those radios were (including what you just typed).

As i have typed elsewhere about these radios, they "are what they are" so buy them with that concept in mind. i wouldnt ever dream of putting one of those radios on a trunking system (not that you could, being a conventional only flash)


buyer beware

I have a bunch of pictures, and some screen shots from the new Kenwood unit. We have one out on demo at this time. I can post them if some wants.

Jim

how much is the CPS/RSS and the programming cable for them?

Prices?

I have not heard any prices yet for the Kenwoods. The unit that we have still has beta firmware, as well as the software (FPU in Kenwood terms). It does use the same programming cable as the TK280/290. The software looks/works a lot like CPS.

I'm home sick, I'll try to get the pictures up. I took some side by side with a XTS3000.

Jim.

Grem


thanks for the info INTERESTING!! Although I did not see any mension of UHF radios I am sure if they are not out yet they will be released soon enough. I am also wondering what "flavor" of trunking they will do, probably LTR. Give Kenwood some time and i am sure they will come up with a competetive product, and I bet their firmware upgrades and "flash uplifts" wont cost more than the radio itself.

jnglmassiv wrote:

n7maq wrote:w I just heard in the last few days that someone who had a Nick radio got a letter from Motorola's legal team. They WANT the radio sent to them! Now I'm not going to name any names, but that can't be the first, or last letter like that.

I heard the same thing. I'd be quite interested in seeing this letter..Anyone?

Are they expecting people to start to mail radios in?

Want to see one? I just got one in the mail.....CERT and REG. Send me a fax number and I'll send it to you. This really sucks! I'll be seeing my Attorney Monday for an opinion.

Mike

with all the people that Deluca screwed, seems like "the radio was never shipped to me" or "was broken when i got it, so i dumped it" would suffice

i personally know of a guy who sent Deluca about 1900.00 for multiple radios and never got crap in return..

Motorola seems to be doing the same crap DirecTV did for awhile, mass mailing threatning letters hoping to find someone who freaked out enough to actually comply.

Times like this make me glad i never did business with that scumbag.

Its amazing to me that he screwed all these people and now motorola wants to screw the rest.

grem467 wrote:with all the people that Deluca screwed, seems like "the radio was never shipped to me" or "was broken when i got it, so i dumped it" would suffice

i personally know of a guy who sent Deluca about 1900.00 for multiple radios and never got crap in return..

Motorola seems to be doing the same crap DirecTV did for awhile, mass mailing threatning letters hoping to find someone who freaked out enough to actually comply.

Times like this make me glad i never did business with that scumbag.

Its amazing to me that he screwed all these people and now motorola wants to screw the rest.

I may have misspoke myself. It was not working when I got it so I sent it back never to see it again!

Mike Watters wrote:
I may have misspoke myself. It was not working when I got it so I sent it back never to see it again!

You laugh but that is exactly what happened to me... I have the 100's of emails to Nick over 8 months asking what happened to my radio to prove it...

I know of at least two other people who recieved similar letters via certified mail. I havent called back home to see if I got one.

Did anyone get a letter who did not buy from Nick via ebay?

Mike

My letter arrived today, VERY Scarey.
I will send the radio back , under protest.
I sure as hell don't want to screw with Mother.
What's even scarier is that they say that I have three
radios and I only have one. How the hell am I going to prove that
I DON"T have something. Oh well, the best that I can do is
cooperate to the best of my abilities and hope for the best.
P.S. my radio is not set to transmit on any freqs. that I am not
licensed to be on. It is set for a fancy scanner on P25.
J.B. AD6WX

Does anyone want to post a copy of these letters? id be interested to see /\/\'s scare tactic first hand.

jbxx wrote:I will send the radio back , under protest.

Whoa, whoa..let's not do anything crazy. And sending the radio to Motorola would be crazy. I've seen the letter and its clearly aimed at public safety users. The radios, being unauthorized, are not type accepted by the FCC. Hams or anyone using the radio in a scanning capacity are at no risk of violating the type acceptance requirement. The way I see it, Motorola has no legal basis to compel anyone to send anything to them.

The letter looks scary and that is the intent. I don't have a nick radio but until Motorola came to my door with a court order and the Sheriff's Police, I'd keep my radio.

I have two friends that also got a letter. I never got my radio (out 1025) for a so called astro spectra 800 mhz that he had two of and he would send me one out asap!!!!

Not for nothing I love Motorola However I would not send them something I paid for on an auction or whatever!!!! it is NOT theirs to have!!

Also I have switched to Kenwood.
For now I got the 3180/2180 and 7180/8180
going for the p25 models soon...

S

I saw a few of these letters today at the Miami hamfest. What a coincidence I just happened to sell mine at the hamfest to a French Canadian. He's going back to Canada Sunday pm. I have yet to get this letter, but since the state system will be MaCom real soon I decided to get a good price while I still could. I didn't get his name. All I saw was 9 Benjies. Since I'm at work all day if a letter does come no one will be at home to sign for it. What a shame. These radios were all bought in good faith. No one said "Want a good deal on a hot radio?". Motorola was paid for these parts somewhere down the line. Besides UHF ham radios don"t have to be approved for anything. We can build our own radios. Just my 2 cents worth. 73's to all. Looking forward to Orlando next week. GARY N4KVE

If these letters make no claim of recovery of 'stolen' parts that Nick never paid for and only reference the type acceptance issue - that's one thing. It seems to me that you would have every right to the parts to do with as you wish [assuming the SOB actually sent them to you] You could use them to repair other radios or whatever. If all you bought was hardware [i.e the IP / firmware / flashcode was not Nick's to sell you] - well, it still ought to be YOUR hardware.

On the other hand, if the claim is made that the parts were not paid for - can they prove that did Nick not pay for every part he ever bought from them? Could Motorola POSITIVELY identify the specific parts that you received as ones that were not paid for??? That could be a challenge in a court of law.

I'm thinking they are going strictly on an intimidation basis - shake people up - get their objectives accomplished by getting enough visibility to discourage anybody from selling or buying 'parts-built' radios in the future.

Motorola says it is illegal to own a radio they didn't build - BUT that may not be substantiated by case law - only a lawyer's opinion [THEIR lawyer's opinion]

If you put a car together out of parts you can go to the DMV and get a 'serial' [VIN] number can't you? Car engines run by computer these days - that's an IP issue.

I think reality is that if you built a car out of GM parts, GM would be justified in not being responsible for it in any way - warranty, safety lawsuit, etc.

Likewise, a parts built radio would not hold Motorola to any responsibility - but as far as violation of type acceptance - UNDER LAW - wouldn't that be between the user and the FCC?

Motorola might be obligated to notify the end user if they became aware of such an issue - warn them the radio is not accepted for use on public safety systems under FCC rules. In fact, that may be the only real validity these letters have. Motorola certainly isn't the authorized FCC enforcement arm - that falls to DOJ.

I have a feeling many of these radios are going to turn up "Sold for cash at a hamfest" without details of the buyer.

interesting, I had an experience like one other member here, not sure if his was a watchbuddy radio or not though, I sent into the depot a model 3, a month after I got it due to a codeplug corruption.

When I received it back home, it was same radio, same codeplug, newest host & dsp, and new serial #, with white tag with black writing on it, like a large ptouch label.

I sent it in under my name with no assistance from a shop or anyone affiliated with one. I did however pay a flat rate fee, which I think was $385 or something like that.

My address is the same still from when I got the radio, and I never got a letter but if I did, I would wipe my xxx with it. If they think they have a right to that radio, they can stop over any time and ask for it. As long as they have a "type accepted" replacement of identical make, model, and features, they can take it, otherwise the only thing they're getting is one of the following
An earful
A beating
A polite request to sodomize themselves

I think it's obsurd, Say I purchase a 1978 buick regal, built entirely from parts, and say, I've never used it on a public roadway since it's got no legal vin to register it with dmv. Do you think anyone in their right mind, be it, buick, or the pope, is going to ask me to give the car back to the maker since it's not able to be "vin'd" or used on the road with warrantee?

Heck NO, Only difference here is that motorola's already serviced these radios in their own shops.

I thought when they priced RSS they were sniffing too much pcb chemicals, now this, I think they've begun to drink it........

Cowthief, since you are an Attorney, perhaps you can shed some light?

Let's try to return this thread to the original discussion of sending untagged radios to the depot, and continue the discussion of the letters from Motorola regarding "Nick" radios here:

http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.php?t=42828

Hello.

So far, Motorola has not kept ANY radios.
What they will do is change the flashcode to the most basic.
So, I am not sure what the legal standing is at this point.
You do get the radio, the same radio you sent to them.
You do, however, lose some features.
If the radio is stolen the radio will be retained for the legal owner.
There was a bit of an issue with some of the radios used at some major events.
The radios in this case were returned to Motorola, the legal owner.
This was done by the police, before the auction was to end.

spectragod wrote:

grem467 wrote: I highly doubt 123ABC1234 is on the "stolen from xx" list

OK, since I am tired of seeing and hearing about these radio's, here's the deal on them.......

M had a fire last year at it's Schaumburg facility, the one that warehouses and does R&D on the XTS5000's, as well as a couple of other models.

The sprinkler system put out the fire, the sprinkler system made M claim damage to all the radio's in the facility. Insurance paid off, and all the radio's 3-5K of them, were sold for scrap, some had water damage, some did not.

All the radio's stored at the warehouse that are for future sale are pre-built and all have the 123ABC1234 serial # and a basic IMBE flash. Some of the unit that were in evaluation had been given serial #'s and flash codes. Almost all of these radio's were 800 and VHF.

Ever notice on a new Motorola product, that the box has 2 labels, one with the basic radio imformation, the other with the flash and options, think about why there are 2 labels, the 2nd one goes on after the flashcode the customer ordered is put in it, it is at that time the serial # is generated and a serial # tag is made as well.

And by some of the members here paying 500 and up for a radio that was bought for $2 a pound, you are just creating a problem by feeding the goof that bought this equipment for scrap. Pretty soon, when you send your radio in with it's goofy serial #, you won't get it back.

Furthermore, each radio has a unique ESN #, and regardless if you have 3-5K radio's with the same serial #, it can be traced back to the scrap bin via the ESN.

As I said in a previous post, these are good working radio's, but are good for parts only. You get what you pay for.... PERIOD.

So no, those radio's are not stolen, they are registered as scrap, send it in, I will bet M says it has water damage and will quote you what it will cost to fix, bet on a 2K bill for that operation.

Buy a scanner, it's cheaper, legal and no one will question you about it.

Schools out, hope everyone learned something.

SG[/quote

Um,I know of someone who had a "ABC" radio,sent it to depot paid the upgrade fees & got the radio firmware & flashcodes he wanted,no problem. So is this your opinion or facts? Because the facts from my end is Motorola will upgrade it with no problem. But maybe this was just luck? WHo knows

ASTROMODAT wrote:Prices?

I deal in new Kenwood radio sales. PM me for wholesale prices