Batboard

well, let's see here.

NO serial tag.

NO factory support at all (corrupt flash w/ incompatible features)

NO idea where / who worked on them...other than himself...


hmmm.

is it really a bargain?

just a matter of time before these are gone, but they'll be gone because he's in jail or buried under a lawsuit.

Hello All!

I figure I should jump in and set the record straight ! I have broken no laws I purchase parts and build radios I also buy auction lots and resale radios I do this for a hobby and to help out alot of friends you can not afford to buy a $3900.00 radio I see that this has caused some great discomfort to some of you. I had planed to stop selling the Astro's by the end of this month However Since this is a sore subject for such a great board I therefore am stopping all selling of Astro's and Motorola products on E-bay and/or other auction sites immeditely, and I further appoligize to "batdude" for any hard feelings he may have toward me since this is the first time I ever heard of him I wish him the best!..

In regards to lawsuits and going to jail I really doubt they want to litigate with a customer who spends $$$ and I mean Alot !. Their was and/or is no monkey business here just trying to be friendly Hope all is well I will always stand behind items I have sold so rest assure.

Thank You
Watchbuddy *08/05/2002*

Batdude it's time you woke up. Building and reconditioning of radios is not a crime. I know several people who work in M's legal department in Schaumburg who state quite clearly that this is not an issue but that those who sell proprietary software is. Furthermore selling software blatantly on ebay is a "no-no", yet many do it and you notice m does not stop it!! M is hurting and whenever I have visited them (I am only 40 minutes away) they tell me w/ the cutbacks they simply cant do copyright and patent infringement enforcement anymore. So what corrupt or bad flashcodes are you referring to? No tags? I've got news for you, M themselves tagged my radios!!!!!!!!! Now what???????????

Nick it's time we moved on. I'm just going to phase out my cables and sell more matchbox cars, (more money in them anyway). You should go w/ that genesis stuff we discussed. No money in the astros anyway!!! Not to mention to many headaches, whiners and Idiots to put up with. (No I dont mean here on batlabs, but you guys should see some of the emails we get).

Hello Shaun:

It's Done with Astros On E-Bay! I am always available for question if I can help Anybody out! I think we should let this go away I however am not happy about the "Nick Has Gone Nutty" but I had my shop clear out the last units and now here we are ? I guess someone is upset about my selling on e-bay all they had to do is say stop and not do this but now I am doing this.

Shaun: Your right in the middle of this bag of Popcorn And I understasnd that you meant nothing wrong about it but these people some are upset like life I am happy with the friends I made and I am going to keep them I hope all stay in touch cause I am a good person and if I can help them I will but no more E-Bay Thats For Sure.

Hay Shaun:

I understand dont worry about it no need to be sorry ! Buddy if you need anything just let me know !.

Yeh, same here shaun just let me know if I can be of further assistance. If I can I'll even send whatever you need to the "Blue oyster" and have them hold it for you until the next time you make it in.

AH HUH.

New to this board (only on a week or so) and I work in both law enforcement, fire service, ems, and also run a "buff" radio group in the NJ/NYC area, the largest mind you, in the north east.

So far, I have enjoyed this site tremendously. I have purchased "some items" from Watchbuddy and so far the customer service aspect has been great, I'm sure a prenote to good things to expect when I get my "items"....

Just my 2 cents, if you feel you are truely legit and doing nothing wrong, then screw the people talking. Your reputation and quality alone will be your defense.....

Mike

In defense of Nick, I've had afew people look at an Astro unit I picked up from him a few months back, and they would swear it was a factory issue unit. There is no way to tell that it is "built up", and I for one would be far more confident in using it than the handheld that I would be issued when the "poop hits the fam".

Further, I can't imagine customer service getting any better than what Nick provides; it truly is exemplary.

Regards,
Mark Valera

- Remember The Twin Toweres 09-11-2001

Nick,

I think you should sell whatever you want on ebay and not let ONE crybaby (who probably can't AFFORD a radio like one of the ones you're selling) prevent you from doing what you want.

I bought an XTS3500 from you recently and I couldn't be happier. As I posted in your ebay feedback, no problems whatsoever, exactly as advertised.

As far as serial tags are concerned, I've found that a radio WITHOUT serial tags has the SAME performance specs and works JUST AS WELL as one WITH serial tags!! Uncanny!!

As far as "support from the big M", that's something I don't need, and maybe if the complaining party was a little more receptive he would meet people or be able to find the "support" information he would need (that's IF he could afford an XTS).

Good luck, Nick and thanks again for a NICE radio at a GREAT price.

let me explain this in simple terms.

NO ONE has an "AGREEMENT" to assemble a Motorola radio and sell it as a Motorola radio EXCEPT motorola!

to think anything else is ABSURD.

Based on same premise that I can't build a "CHEVY" or "FORD" outta parts I buy from the factory, make up a VIN and sell it as a "CHEVY" or "FORD"... think about it.

cop buys one of Nick's radios, gets killed 'cause the emergency button is sticky (whatever reason) and wifey sues WHO???

Nick??

I doubt it!

This is an ILLEGAL misrepresentation of product, plain and simple - doesn't matter if the radios are working or not. If they are made by anyone else (other than M) and sold as "M" products, you have committed a crime.

The flashcode is flakey, has incompatible options (that M will not sell in one radio), and the RADIOS HAVE NO LEGITIMATE SERIAL NUMBERS.

This means

NO SERVICE from DEPOT

and probably a HUGE headache (ask Elroy!) on getting your radio back should you be stupid enuf to think that a radio with an invalid s/n will actually come back from the depot FIXED.

this is purely an economic question for some - his prices CAN'T BE BEAT.

However, one should know EXACTLY what you are getting before you buy one.

if you want one, go ahead - but be warned, 'cause when he gets popped, you can bet that anyone he sold a radio to (and he kept records of) is gonna get a bite of the same sandwich!



doug

Not for anything but, if an XTS series radio breaks, it's going to cost you more than you bought it for anyway!

So heres my philosophy: Buy one for like $1000... break it... By another one for $1000... total: $2000

STILL Less than half of a brand new one from Motorola.

So basically, what the hell would you ever send a radio like that to them!

GEEZE!!!!!

Mike

I don't know much about all the legal daggers being thrown around, but one I thing I do know is Nick is a TRUE stand up guy. I couldn't be happier with the radio I got from him. This is the last time I'm going to say this but, I bought my radio from Nick because of his great reputation on Ebay and here at Batlabs, and that great reputation is how I'll remember him. Thanks for all your help and Understanding
Sorry to see you leave Ebay this way.

Truly,
T.J.

Nick -

Will you still be selling the radios outside of ebay through referals and such? or just getting out completly. I'd still be interested in buying an XTS or tow, but budget or need doesn't dictate the need yet

-Alex

Yeah, I'm w/ Alex...I may be wanting to get a nice XTS to use on the ham bands if I ever find I have a surplus of money!

Good luck!

Great Radios I Bought two of them and no problems at all they do everything I want them to do no complaints here, by the way hows it going nick hope your doing well out there and I might be in the market for on of those Astro Saber III's UHF maybe in september ocotber area if you can let me know if you will have any available around then or now let me know bud!

Brian Kieduk

again, think about it.

did your friend try to manufacture "FORD" trailers for economic gain?

NO.

what one does for his own personal use is one thing, just as the old "HYPERCHIP" EEPROM upgrade to your OWN, PERSONAL vehicle...

HOWEVER,

generating product for a profit, and clearly attempting to represent it as being "GENUINE" is another, completely separate topic, and is covered by separate laws.

i could care less if you believe what i say! if you'd like a good attorney's phone number on trademark/copyright infringement, PM me!

you guys are taking my arguments the wrong way - if you bought a product from Nick, and you're happy with it - MORE POWER TO YA. Very very few people in our hobby/passion can actually afford to purchase a full blown XTS-3000 or Astro Saber from M - not to mention the fact that actually purchasing one can be next to impossible (therefore, a large GREY/BLACK (like charcoal) market!!!)

All i am trying to get across is the fact that ---> #1: Invalid serial number #2: Invalid FLASH and #3: the radios are built from parts, and therefore are not GENUINE, and getting service from M on those radios just ain't gonna happen at the Depot. If you can afford to buy a new Vocon at around $1k, *and* be able to provide a good serial number and valid flash to have them prep the board for ya, then ROCK ON!

if it were me, and i was in the same position, i'd sell em as "PARTS KITS", lots lots less legal crap to wrangle thru when u do that!!!!

LOL

kinda like buying that "80% complete" machinegun kit!



doug

Yeah who is gonna get you the motorola Police "Now I heard It all"

Batdude!

Hello, time for me to reply to you!

I appreciate your statements however I am not going to step on your 1st Amenment rights here. I am proud that you stand behind your reply you are a good man I wish you the best!.

Further just to let you know, I will always stand behind all the radios I sold! Obviously you are bidder about something but I have'nt a clue Please accept my appoligy if I ever stated anything to you and/or about you. I am A Ham operator and I go To Dayton have for the last 15 years I hope you can spread some light on this for me! By the way I am very happy not to be on E-Bay anymore I commend You!..

Best Wishes
Nick

Batdude writes in part:

"cop buys one of Nick's radios, gets killed 'cause the emergency button is sticky (whatever reason) and wifey sues WHO???"

Can someone on this list tell me (and all of the others) what Police Officer/Firefighter/Paramedic would buy a portable on E-bay and use it as the primary communications device while he was on duty?

Seems to me that the department would provide this equipment for the employee needing it and the purpose of buying one of these off of E-bay would be for listening in your leisure or "off duty" time.

Nick, sorry to hear your leaving the Astro business. By the way, the astro saber III you sold me is still alive and kicking on my desk !!

Couldn't ask for better service, or a better price for that matter!

And the radio is in almost perfact condition !


Thanks again, and good luck in whatever your going to do !

Mike

Policeman arent gonna use the radio for there primary radio because most departments have a general order that prohibits you to use a non departmental radio. But on the other hand there aint nothing wrong with having your own personal radio for off duty use ect.... I personally never used any of my radios while at work but im sure the astros that nick sold me would never die on me when I really needed it and i can bet my bottom dolllar on that.

For normal circumstances, one would not use their personal radio for patrol purposes. Consider though the abuse an issue portable would take (i.e., droppage, improper use, etc.) versus a personal radio. Also, having a reserve when resources are tapped is something you would be very thankful for. I certainly feel much better having a "Nick special" at my disposal should the unthinkable happen again.

Regards,
Mark Valera

-Remember The Twin Towers 09-11-2001

BATDUDE, you are wrong again. The Rockford DEPOT DOES work on a radio even if it has a hacked and verifiably bad flash!!! I know because I bought a basement job at a hamfest and walked in to the depot where I was told that if it were 5 years ago they would have investigated. Times have changed and moto is trying to do a better job of customer support. They have several huge litigations against them and really dont care to hang the little guy that someone else screwed at a hamfest. If anyone wants to challenge this, I live in Rockford not 10 minutes from the depot, want to go for a ride??????????? Better yet I am less then an hour away from the big "M" HQ in schaumburg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As per what scanman has stated is true. He has already taken me and my astro saber III that was purchased at a ham fest and we went to the depot and they checked and retagged the radio. No problems at all.
I purchased it without a tag. They had no problems taking my money for the check up and the tag.

Batdude, "economic gain"? Do you know the price of reconditioning a beat up intermittent working xts3000? Nick is selling these at breakeven in almost all cases!! You really think he is making money at $1000-$1250 each???? They list at around $5000 !!!!!!!!!!! Used / reconditioned they are worth almost half of that easily. Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

scandude- feel free to send your hacked radio to the depot. if you say they won't confiscate it, so be it. personally, and for everyone else here, NOT HAVING a serial tag is no big deal as long as the s/n in the radio firmware is correct and unaltered. I am sure there is economic gain to be had by Nick with the products he offers - otherwise, why sell them? (sorry if i missed something there, but it's fairly plain to me)

and for those who haven't been around for a while, altering/changing/modifying any factory generated "electronic" serial number garners you special attention under both the Digital Millenium Copyright Act and ECPA 1996. Such altering is not subject to any "end user" or "fair use" provisions common in other laws on this subject.

another 4 or 5 years and the ESN concept will have taken over all of the high-end M gear anyway - and i would hazard a guess that this will not be as easy to change once the radio is built. M has always been quick to fix problems with their firmware IRT hacking/adding features.... i suspect that the ESN is gonna fix most of these problems, just like the "LAB/DEPOT" software fixes they implemented internally to prevent the s/w from being duped and taken into the public domain.

i, like most others here, do not have a six-figure job. i word hard for my "toyz" just like most everyone else here. having bought numerous radios from joe barkley, both on and off-ebay, i can attest to the need to ensure you have a clean, valid s/n and flash in the radio before sending it to the depot for repairs. after buying a W7 800 from him, the radio had a blown vocon. it was an older vocon (512k) that had a factory IMBE flash in it. this flashcode MATCHED the serial tag. THREE CALLS from the depot to my local shop before they would work on it - mainly becuase they did not believe that a 512k vocon would do IMBE. $330 later, and i get a working, W7 1meg AS back, 100% working with a better flash than i sent it off with (H38 vice H36)...and they even replaced the s/n sticker with one of the depot generated white ones.

from someone who has come and gone in the "used radio sales" game, how would i know if he's making $$ or not? #1 i don't know where the parts are coming from!!!! #2 i don't know how much he's payin for em!

i will say that in my past, i could get certain parts from certain people, and quantity TALKED .. M list / wholesale means not a damn thing to the guy standing in front of you with 100 MTS-2000 controllers... (dayton 1994 for instance)

common freakin' sense sez PEOPLE DON'T WORK FOR FREE, *EVER*.

simple rule man - PERCEPTION = REALITY, especially in court.


d

Batdude, My user Id is scanman but coming from you I understand. If you feel I cant replace a board, recase and realign a radio and still sell it as a moto product you are nuts. Are you an attorney? I hope so because if you are not you need to quit quoting laws that even "M" states are not issues w/ them. These very issues have been addressed on this site many times. I do not send, my radios to the depot. I walk them in and fill out the paperwork on the spot. They will not and by their own admission can not seize a radio not belonging to them without returning it in short order!!! Yes they will always be glad to charge a flat rate fee, we as customers must be willing to pay it sometimes. You sound as if you have had bad experience w/ them, maybe you should try yaesu, they are easier to deal with!!! People dont ever work for free? "EVER"?? I take offense at that foolish comment. PISS OFF! I donate my time and equipment on a regular basis. Remember September 11th? I sent a ton of programming gear and equipment and am still sending it ( I make my living w/ this equipment, therefore I am working) at no charge to anyone and w/ a very limited income during those times!! My customers can attest to the fact that their orders were delayed as a result. I do more "FREE" work then payed. You need to get lost. By the way, I have not "come and gone", I have been in this line of work since I was 16 so I'm here to stay. GET USED TO IT.

Batdude:

I am starting to take this personal.You are the only one against me! here kindda feel like you are in a one man battle against me, so now you are picking on scanman. I would not continue this practice if I were you!

You already won no more e-bay and astro stuff why dont you put a cork in this forum. Just a friendly request!.. I am tired of all this discussion when we should be talking about error code failure and how too's come on all that knollege wasted here on this stupid topic!

Just a Thought !.. Come On Post A Friendly Reply And bury It!. Olive Branch Anyone?

Why is that dude complaining so much, the radios he sells are good working radios who's gives a crap about anything else as long as they work that is all that counts for the buyer right?? I think we should stop picking on nick here he never deceived anyone so there should be no beef?

I haven't gotten one of Nick's radios, I can't speak for the quality of what he does sell.

My impression is that he stands behind what he sells. You want a high quality radio and get support for it? goto Nick.

I wouldn't let this thread or one person turn you away from buying from him. He obviously has enough satisified customers or he wouldn't be in business.

With that, I'm locking the topic.

-Alex

Sheesh...you're gone for a couple of weeks and the place goes nuts!


All I want to toss in here is that from a strictly legal standpoint, it's very difficult if not actually IMPOSSIBLE to say where the line is between replacing parts and building a new radio, if you're using factory components.

It is not legal for you to fabricate your own serial number. That much is certain.

But, as for building radios up from kits....no, that's not illegal according to the best legal advice I've heard so far.

Take an Astro Saber, for instance. The radio is composed of the following parts/major assemblies:

Housing
Frame kit
Front shield with or without display
RF deck
VOCON deck
Internal shields
(optional) encryption module)
Some hardware (screws)
A few other small items like the vocon-RF jumper plug.

ALL of these parts and kits can be bought from Motorola.
NO law prohibits you from putting them together and making
a perfectly good radio which is absolutely indistinguishable
from a factory made radio that is lacking a serial number tag.

You aren't even prohibited from applying the Motorola decal
to the housing, though it's already on the housing when you get it.

The ONLY issue is that the radio wasn't actually assembled IN the Motorola factory and wasn't assigned a serial number by them.
The radio is legal to own, build, use, buy, and sell. But, you can't sell it as a genuine Motorola factory built product. So long as you disclose that it is built up from parts (Original Motorola parts and assemblies, with NO substitutions, even) then you're covered.

If you were to get absurdly lucky and land a deal for enough spare
parts to build several hundred radios all out of kit parts of genuine Motorola origin and intended for that product, you're golden as long as you specify that they're built from spares and were not shipped from Motorola's factory as complete radios.


If you were to buy a complete car from GM, one piece at a time,
frame, engine, body panels, trim, lights, interior, the whole nine yards, and then you built it EXACTLY like a factory built car, the only issue is the assigning of a VIN, which CAN be done by your state. So long as you don't try to invent a GM VIN for it yourself, you're also fine. Same thing, basically. It's identical to, but not made by, GM, though it's made 100 percent with all correct original GM parts. Legal. Sort of complicated, but legal.

Gee, it's great to be able to post into a locked thread!

Elroy