Mototrbo

[adamnfd202]

Is the Mototrbo system tough enough to work for a fire department? Here is my problem, our PD is on a 20+ year old VHF repeater that has not been properly maintained and our FD moved to a county wide UHF system, All departments we mutual aid with are VHF so communications with them are done by relay with a dispatcher, our UHF system does not function properly, poor engineering and the county will not address the problem so we are forced to do something to ensure safe communications. We have looked at the Mototrbo system, I just dont know if it is for us. Any imput would be a great help.

[Bill_G]

Mototrbo product is reasonable quality, but how well it would stand up to fire duty is hard to say. It is not p25 capable. So, it would not qualify for govt grants. I can say it has served hospitals and college campuses well. It has also served our local sewer inspectors amazingly well working in "confined spaces" which surprised everyone.

[RFguy]

We have 2 MOTOTRBO systems in fire departments (one for about 18 months) and they have stood up very well (no repairs to date). The radios are IP57 so are well sealed against water intrusion. The IMPRES batteries/chargers have eliminated their battery issues.

They have been happy with the audio quality in loud enviroments. They say it is better than the analogue channel. The users have to learn how to use it though (speak directly into the mic). The only issue is that they could no longer use the talk around of the repeater, so we obtained an on-site simplex channel for times where repeater coverage to portables is not reliable.

[JRayfield]

Some federal grants can be used for non-P25 equipment/systems. It depends upon the type/source of the grant and the 'rules' that the state has in place (the federal government leaves some of the 'details' up to the individual states, as to what some grants can be used for). A nearby county received a very large grant with which they are going to implement a county-wide MOTOTRBO Connect Plus system.

John Rayfield, Jr. - CETma

[MTS2000des]

unitl NIST, USFA, APCO and other agencies do a real scientific study on vocoder performance of these proprietary business radio systems like MotoTRBO and NexEDGE, there is no real evidence of their suitability for use on the fireground. We've already seen the mistakes of poorly implemented DSP with IMBE, and users should be cautious and not take advice from those peddling the wares, but wait for the facts to come in from real, independent authorities from the agencies above and other standards ogranizations before making decisions on replacing existing systems with such technology.

the majority of grant money is for P25. The Federal government has put much effort into this for a reason, proprietary closed networks such as MotoTRBO and NexEDGE are a hinderance not a help when it comes to moving toward widescale interagency interoperability. This technology may be a stellar replacement for older digital SMR's like iDEN and LTR, but it has no place in public safety.

There is a reason why P25 is the dominant standard. We have invested considerable national resources to make it happen. We should not be distracted by lower cost solutions that are incompatible and uncertfied by recognized standards organizations just because it is less expensive and being made attractive by those selling it.

[Bill_G]

Aren't Trbo, NXDN, and P25 all based on AMBE?

[MTS2000des]

Aren't Trbo, NXDN, and P25 all based on AMBE?

No, P25 phase 1 uses IMBE:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P25

"P25 standards use the Improved Multiband Excitation (IMBE) vocoders which were designed by DVSI to encode/decode the analog audio signals."

But the issue is more than just vocoder performance, public safety going back to proprietary closed networks such as MotoTRBO, NXDN, Provoice, or OpenSKY flies in the face of reason for creating a set of standards in the first place. P25 phase 1 may not be perfect, but it is THE standard adopted by the Federal government, and is agreed upon by all the public safety communications organizations as the path to digital. It is foolhardy and counterproductive to go any other route. Infrastructure and subscriber radios are now available from half a dozen vendors, and a standards compliance program now exists for compatibility.

[wavetar]

But the issue is more than just vocoder performance, public safety going back to proprietary closed networks such as MotoTRBO, NXDN, Provoice, or OpenSKY flies in the face of reason for creating a set of standards in the first place.

First off, I will agree with you that Public Safety should stick to a single standard. That said, for other users...

Both MotoTRBO and NXDN are actually 'open' standards...MotoTRBO is based on the 'ETSI TS 102 361-1' common air interface standard, and is now being marketed in North America by Hytera as competition to Motorola. NXDN was jointly developed by Kenwood & ICOM as a common air interface from the start, and is now overlooked by a 'forum' of companies which include:

Aeroflex Wichita, Inc.
Daniels Electronics, Ltd.
Icom Incorporated
Kenwood Corporation
Ritron, Inc.
Trident Micro Systems
CML Micro

As far as performance...it's as much in the rest of the radio design as it is in the vocoder. Both TRBO and NXDN use the AMBE+2 vocoder (same as all NEW P25 radios), yet:

With TRBO, Motorola basically says "this is how it sounds", with nothing but turning AGC on/off to impact sound quality/intelligibillity in different environments.

With NexEdge, Kenwood gives 3 different filter settings, 3 different internal/external mic sensitivity settings, and the option of 'noise suppression' on/off. We recently had a customer in an industrial setting with 6 areas where noise levels exceeded 105 decibels...one of them 109. Setting the radios to 'filter 2', noise suppression 'ON', and mic sensitivity 'low' resulted in perfectly intelligible audio in all areas, especially in combination with a noise cancelling external speaker/mic...far better than their old analog radios (mixture of HT1000 style & Kenwood '180' series) could ever achieve.

I haven't performed or read of any testing with the Kenwood NX200/300 series NXDN portables in a fireground situation, but the above results make me think they would out-perform even P25...just my unscientific opinion. I can say I'm extremely impressed with the sound, and the options to change the sound.

Motorola says digital delay with TRBO is just nature of the beast...yet Kenwood has practically eliminated it with NexEdge.

TRBO radios take approx 4 seconds to 'boot up' and become useful, which Motorola says can't be avoided...NexEdge radios turn on immediately.

Seems to me the hardware in the NexEdge radios is superior to the TRBO.

[MTS2000des]

No argument that MotoTRBO and NexEDGE aren't superior digital modes for SMR/LMR. Was not aware they were based on open standards, that is a good thing.

But for public safety, such as fire and PD. An emphatic NO. Nevermind we've spent billions of dollars and countless man hours to finally make headway with P25. Our path should remain on with that, to phase II. Not switching horses. Problem is so many agencies are broke and want digital radio, and many dealers eager to make a quick sale push other products which don't meet these standards, qualify for the SAFECOM grants, and are incompatible with the networks going up around them. Which defeats the purpose to begin with.

I have heard NXDN in the wild and it sounded quite pleasing. Albeit it was in a casino (I guess if those radios can survive being choked in that smoke filled room they might do okay in the pocket of a turnout coat!) but never in use by a public safety agency.

[jeffee1]

Luckily this topic isn't as controversial as the topic about if TRBO is "legal" in the amateur radio service. You have a point about sticking to the somewhat well laid out plan of P25. Though I just went through an almost 12 month hassle to get 'approved' to put 2 private ambulance/fire department rigs on the P25 system. Can anyone say RED TAPE? I'd say (in my humble opinion) the problem with P25 is the band not the system. Seems to me a P25 system on VHF or UHF would be a better performer as far as propagation goes. Also there are concerns (at least in my mind) about having a coast to coast linked network running all PS communications which is where we're headed. We use TRBO radios for an industrial fire brigade/ambulance at a steel mill arguably the loudest and harshest environment on earth. We have it all (water, heat, oil, grease, dust, dirt and noise) and thus far TRBO has done a very nice job. NXDN was kicked around but didn't have integrated GPS, score one for /\/\. P25 has cost us taxpayer billions and as of the last report I saw, we're no closer to being interoperable than we were before 9/11. You be the judge. I'm sure we'll get there but when and at what cost? I will say that in my years as a volunteer and paid firefighter the simpler the radio system the better. I don't really care if it has encryption that rivals most foriegn countries or that I can send a text message or all the other bells and whistels that P25 AND the others boast. I'm not really comfortable knowing when I key my mic that some zone controller somewhere has to tell my radio if I can have a channel or not! Where does that leave you? Switching to a conventional or simplex channel on a P25 radio. Don't get me wrong...it's a COOL system and I give /\/\ kudos for it. I also love the internet and my smart phone but they're relatively fragile and complicated networks that may or may not be working when the fit hits the shan.

just my .02 cents!

[MSS-Dave]

Luckily this topic isn't as controversial as the topic about if TRBO is "legal" in the amateur radio service

I believe the topic was if Trunking ("centralized control channel") is legal in Amateur service over in the other thread.

[jeffee1]

Luckily this topic isn't as controversial as the topic about if TRBO is "legal" in the amateur radio service

I believe the topic was if Trunking ("centralized control channel") is legal in Amateur service over in the other thread.

I must have missed the discussion about trunking but there is discussion over various forums about the legality. Sounds like the hitch (for the most part) is the FXE part of the emmissions designator.