Legality of Business Band (professional) Radios

W1WWJ · Post by **W1WWJ** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 5:52 pm

If you are going to purchase a commercial radio for your own or company use, please get a license so your frequency can be coordinated. If it is for your own personal use, get your tech ham license and program the radio for the ham frequencies. The fine the FCC will impose is hefty and all it takes is a ligit licensed user to complain. The FCC is happy to get info about illegal users. If you plan to operate illegally good luck and please stay away from licensed users.

ricciticcitembo · Post by **ricciticcitembo** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:11 pm

This is not the pirate's den.

W1WWJ · Post by **W1WWJ** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:17 pm

Please enlighten me as to what you mean by that post?

Post by **vcaruso** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 7:12 pm

W1WWJ,
Why dont you enlighten us as to why you posted your comment.

W1WWJ · Post by **W1WWJ** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 7:51 pm

I posted my comment to "enlighten" individuals that they can't just purchase any radio and use it for their own pleasure. I am heavily involved in my companies wireless systems and know what it takes to get proper licensing. After reading on a earilier post about a patrol man wanting to purchase a commercial radio and set it up in his house as a base station not knowing what he needs made me cringe. I know what it takes to get a base license to be legal. I have had to chase many users on our licensed frequencies who are causing interference to us only to find out they purchased the radios from "Graybar" or any other "supplier". Of course the "supplier" tells them they don't need a license unless they plan to talk more than 5 miles even though the manuals say they do. We pay good money to get our licenses and have a right to use them without constantly having to chase the "hunter" or other "hobbiest" who doesn't know the rules. Clean frequencies without interference can mean life and death for some users. I know many dealers make their money selling radios but they should also inform the purchaser what they are buying. Yes, they are not responsible to make sure the radios are used legally, but they should not give bad information just to make a sale. One department in my company went ahead and purchased 12 portable radios and chargers $$$ for their use from one of these dealers (on Sale)who told them they don't need a license to use the radios. They were using the radios when my department recieved a complaint from the licensed user of this frequency. Luckly, the licensed user knew us and did not file a formal complaint. We took the radios away and explained the legality. Its hard enough to watch how your own company uses it's wireless systems much less tring to chase down other users. If a user wants to purchase high quality equipment like Motorola, do so but not on licensed frequencies. Get a ham license, program the radio for the 2 meter or 70 cm band and go for it. P.S. they are also licensed frequencies.

Elroy Jetson · Post by **Elroy Jetson** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 7:58 pm

It should have occurred to you that most of the people who post here at Batlabs know more about radio than the most radio-savvy person in the average business that uses two way radios on a daily basis. Quite a few of us can go toe-to-toe with many radio techs that are employed with various radio shops.

You don't have to preach to us. Most of us know this stuff pretty well.

This is not a beginner's board, and true beginners in two way radio rarely come here.
The ones that do, and end up staying and becoming regulars, learn about the legal basics pretty quickly.

Elroy Jetson, Moderator

W1WWJ · Post by **W1WWJ** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 8:06 pm

I Apologize to all members who I may have offended. Today is the first time I came to this forum. I do know there is a good deal of knowledge on this site and respect it. My message was not to individuals who know better but to individuals who may not. Again, I apologize. No harm is meant. This has been a big problem for me lately and maybe I take it too personnally.

Monty · Post by **Monty** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 8:07 pm

Hi:

Also, not to forget, its perfectly legal
to buy a Scanner ! ,and I have been informed
the Digital Scanner is not that far off.

So, if " anyone" licensed or not wants to
have a base station to listen in, there are
100's of so called salesman in the Two-Way market that will sell anything to anyone.

I have seen these Nextel Sales persons
selling their Communicators for warehouse
applications where dispatch radios would
work better ( and would be cheaper ) to
operate.

Not to say its a good thing, its just
sorta the way things are,

90% of the persons here are already
very savy and it would be very tough
to pull the wool over thier eyes.

MS

PCSAR 4x4 652 · Post by **PCSAR 4x4 652** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 9:28 pm

Your post would have been better received as a personal email to the User you referred to as the "Patrolman". Not to mention that the patrolman that posted that message about the home base radio meant (I believe) he wants to monitor traffic on his dept's channels anyway. Which he would be covered under his departments blanket license anyway for "temporary station" or "mobile unit". Since they are licensed for a certain number of units each and rarely have all mobiles operating at one time.
It is not illegal to monitor a police or HAM frequency - he can listen allll he wants to. It is, however, to transmit unless it is a LIFE OR DEATH situation (per FCC regs)without the proper license.
The HAM operators always seem to omit that part from thier rants about UNLICENSED users.
The "TAC" in my sig means
Tactical Area Communications, BTW.
_________________
T. Freeman
PCSAR 4x4 Unit 652
PCSAR TAC Unit 705

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PCSAR 4x4 652 on 2002-03-03 00:40 ]</font>

R F Burns · Post by **R F Burns** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 1:14 am

Not to mention the lot of frequencies that you don't need a license for: 27MHz CB, FRS, MURS, VHF marine, Part 15, etc. Just my two pennies.

-RFB, who's signed off on a few form 574's, 600's, 601's and 605's in his career.

Will · Post by **Will** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 2:37 am

I belive that the goal of FCC licensing of two-way radio SHOULD be to alocate frequencies to best reduce interference, either co-chanel or adjacent chanel. BUT most frequency coordination seems to be nothing more than a rubber stamp.
I have had to "locate" a lot of radio users of the licensed and unlicensed types in my thirty some years in two-way. It is much easier to locate the licensed users on a frequency and work with them to resolve a interference or unacceptable usage problem.
Don't you love the unlicensed repeater on a TWO watt UHF splinter frequency with a 100watt repeater & gain antenna on the top of a 70 story building. And that is just to talk to the security and janitors in the building.

Monty · Post by **Monty** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 3:04 am

Hi:

My evidence shows not to many ever paid attention to the coordination issue other
than get approval for a License. Once approved, they intstalled whatever they wished.

All I have ever seen with the coordination
was just to make the licensee pay more monies. Not once has our site ( Or any site I know of ) has ever been
inspected !,and that has been more than 20
years.

Make a Complaint, Ya Right !, just goes in with the 1000's, perhaps 10's of 1000's of others

In the old days when Motorola was running the UHF band, they wanted some control over
who used what where, and just wanted to know
who was operating on " Their " Channel.
( Right )

If a problem occurred, the FTR took care of
it.

Now its just a matter of who has the most
monies and best systems.

In Mexico, there are pirate repeaters every
where ( even reverse freqs on UHF ) which play all kinds of havoc in the US.

It takes sometimes " years " to try and clean
up the mess, and with the Trimble Survay Systems, and these independent Two-Way shops setting up UHF portables on repeater input freqs is making UHF Communications very difficult to control...

Imagine a 40 Watt UHF Reverse Repeater Trimble Survay transmitter operating spitting out bits of data being every 5-10 Seconds regardless of who is using the freq...And they are licensed to use 250 Watts....

Not to many UHF Portables can compete with a
40 Watt transmitter.

That was a real good coordination thought and
I am sure someone got paid very well.

And they have licensed 1000's of these units
to " Rent / lease " to Survay Perosns who could care less who they jam out. And they occupy the 469.000 to 469.850 range in 25Khz Steps.

Ever hear that " Buzz " Click, Whistle? on your " Input " Freq to your repeater?

Thats a Trimble Survay Transmitter / Repeater tied in with a GPS.

No ID, No Control, Operators are clueless,
and the rest is obvious. Starts @ around 6:00am in the mornings, quits @ 4:00-5:00
PM

MS

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: [email protected] on 2002-03-03 06:07 ]</font>

MT2000 man · Post by **MT2000 man** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 7:24 am

Hey, I do apologize if I stirred up any trouble, (which I seem to have done) but I should have mentioned that I was only going to monitor 2 way traffic, that's all, I wouldn't think of transmitting, because I know its against the law to transmit on especially a police freq. So, again, I apologize for anyone who got confused.

jim · Post by **jim** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 8:11 am

About 7 years ago, somebody was intentionally interfering with a local PD's UHF system on a daily basis. Well.....this person decided to start talking on it and using MY ham call!!! In no time at all, I get a letter from the FCC with all of the usual threats (I didn't even own any 70cm gear at the time). Once I contacted them and explained to them what was happening, they basically said "oh, well, okay then. Have a good day" and dropped it at that. With something as serious as what this guy was doing, they didn't even check into it any further. This just goes to show that they really don't care about what happens unless they get literally thousands of complaints about a problem. I really expected to get in the middle of something that would turn nasty, but it didn't.
On a "hunch", several of us figured out a possible suspect of the interference. After contacting the PD (which I know many of the officers, of course), the next time it happened, they simply said over the air: "that's enough, Jeff" it stopped forever. Our hunch was correct!
The FCC didn't care about interference with a police department, so why would they care about GMRS, FRS or a business band? I assume they have more important issues to deal with from all of the digital systems and other modern technology that we're starting to see throughout the US????

W1WWJ · Post by **W1WWJ** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 10:52 am

MT2000 MAN, it's not your fault for this posting it is mine for starting this post. I again apologize to you and the other members of this forum. I ASSUMED something I should not have.

MT2000 man · Post by **MT2000 man** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 11:46 am

W1WWJ -

Again, that's ok, and I accept your apology, I understand where you are coming from. I hope you have fun on this board, I have been a member here for quite some time, and I have to admit, this is the BEST radio info. board on the web. All you have to do here is ask a question, and people answer it within a 1/2 hour on most occasions. Whereas if you wanted to ask a question somewhere else, you'd probably have to pay to get the answer

Anyway, I'm glad we got that cleared up, and hope you enjoy the board.

Mike

R F Burns · Post by **R F Burns** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 12:09 pm

>"Don't you love the unlicensed repeater on a TWO watt UHF splinter frequency with a 100watt repeater & gain antenna on the top of a 70 story building. And that is just to talk to the security and janitors in the building."

Geez, will... I thought I was the only one who ran into those "problems." LOL! Oh, I just *love* 'em to death! (gnashing teeth)

-RFB

Elroy Jetson · Post by **Elroy Jetson** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 3:43 pm

Those repeater can be VERY handy! Particularly if it's a well-tuned repeater capable of handling any digital or encrypted traffic that comes through. You can use that repeater in those modes and the janitors won't have a clue of what's going on!

I'm not saying you SHOULD, though.

Elroy

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 12:26 pm

On 2002-03-02 23:07, [email protected] wrote:
I have seen these Nextel Sales persons
selling their Communicators for warehouse
applications where dispatch radios would
work better ( and would be cheaper ) to
operate.

Ain't it the truth. I see on a nearly daily basis people using these NEXTHELL phones for comms of a few hundred feet at hobby shows, sports card shows, gun shows, etc. FRS, or any of the other license free services would have fit the bill better, for free.

Of course, these people have no realization that their signal is going to the cell phone tower, and then back out into the other cell phone?? Some "Direct Connect" it is. Somewhere else I heard that Some NEXTEl users even try to see how far away from eachother they can go before breaking up! How idiotic. Then when they discover that the signal does not break-up due to the excesive volume of cell-phone towers, they brag and BS to me that their Nextel Phones are better than my two way radios. Nuts to that!

FatBoy · Post by **FatBoy** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 2:04 pm

As far as the data on input, the shop I work at has purchased a doppler direction finder and we have gotten pretty good at finding people. Lots of surveyers are using the Trimple stuff. It is usually a 3 to 7 ch user selectable, IE ch 1 through 7 can be selected. It tears up our LTR system as well as MOSCAD and other telemtry systems. Most of the offenders either have no idea or thought it was the "home office's" responsibility to get legal. I have seen quite a few systems inherited by individuals who have little RF knowledge. FatBoy.

KitN1MCC · Post by **KitN1MCC** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 7:13 pm

Just a BTW. Most radio's Sold at Graybar and other supply houses Operate on the MURS channels

nyghthawk · Post by **nyghthawk** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 11:43 am

horror stories

i could tell you a couple stories; like the time i found an Icom IC-U16 (uhf field programable ht) at a pawn shop with the tag reading "CB as-is $20". or the time i got a MTX-810 for 5 bucks at a pawn shop, still programmed on the power co freq. i shudder to think what could happen if somebody had bought one of those and just keyed up occationally to say "breaker 19er". but on the other hand its other peoples ignorance that allowed me to get some good radios cheap. i usually try to spend the $10-20 to buy one of those "nonworking 'CB's" and keep them out of the hands of the ignorant, and it gives me something to play with (and i know what i'm doing)

Hightower · Post by **Hightower** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 10:57 pm

W1WWJ, I'm sad to say, but the FCC is not enforcing Part 97 rules these days like they used to. There is tons on unlicensed operators all over the country, and the FCC doesn't seem to care. Why has the FCC not shut down the W6NUT repeater in L.A. If FCC can't shut down W6NUT, then the airwaves are a free-for all nowdays, sadly to say.

Hear for yourself the W6NUT repeater live http://www.live365.com/stations/48992
(people easly offended should not listen to this)

I believe all radio operators operating on licensed frequencies should definently get the proper FCC license - that goes without saying. Keep in mind that there are some unlicensed frequencies that only a radio is needed to operate.

After you read this board, you will realize that we are all good people and most are using their equipment per FCC Part 97.