Remote disable repeat but still have simplex.
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Remote disable repeat but still have simplex.
Before I go make this suggestion to the people who sign the checks, I want to make sure it is possible. We have a quantar and Spectra TAC repeater system running UHF conventional and Centracom Gold Elite consoles at work. I would like to setup something to use some wiseass decides to try wreaking havoc on the system. Can I have button on the console that will turn off the transmitter so received audio only goes to the console and the only transmitted audio is from me with the mic at the console. Basicly, I want to be able to disable the "repeat" part of this whole thing. If the moron making noises has no audience, he will probably go away.
"I'll eat you like a plate of bacon and eggs in the morning. "
- Some loser on rr.com
eBay at it's finest:
Me: "What exactly is a 900Mhz UHF CB?"
Them: "A very nice CB at 900Mhz speed!"
- Some loser on rr.com
eBay at it's finest:
Me: "What exactly is a 900Mhz UHF CB?"
Them: "A very nice CB at 900Mhz speed!"
a little more info
where are the repeaters located from
the command center?
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thebigphish
- Posts: 1477
- Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 10:10 pm
- What radios do you own?: AM/FM
tone remote
tone remote at the repeater that shuts it down....dunno if you have a soft-off setup on that repeater, or just a solenoid that cuts the juice....
this poses some interesting questions now on your end...is your console uplink directional? (if so no one will hear you from the console, unless they're in the directional path) because taking the repeater out of the loop with the console will stifle your tx power and ability.... AND it will have you TX simplex on two disjoint channels....if you wanted to go to pure simplex, i think you'd have to adjust the freq. on your end so you could be TX / RX on the same digits....
or if you're mad close, just a two wire circut to soft-off the repeater or a solenoid....
anyway, lots of possibilites....
now if i could just point this yagi at new haven....
this poses some interesting questions now on your end...is your console uplink directional? (if so no one will hear you from the console, unless they're in the directional path) because taking the repeater out of the loop with the console will stifle your tx power and ability.... AND it will have you TX simplex on two disjoint channels....if you wanted to go to pure simplex, i think you'd have to adjust the freq. on your end so you could be TX / RX on the same digits....
or if you're mad close, just a two wire circut to soft-off the repeater or a solenoid....
anyway, lots of possibilites....
now if i could just point this yagi at new haven....
"How do you plan to outwit Death?"
"With a knight and bishop combination; I will destroy his flank." --Antonious Block
"With a knight and bishop combination; I will destroy his flank." --Antonious Block
Maybe I worded this wrong. The console is connected by RTPA circuit (or maybe it is an FDPA), either way it is a phone pair. I just want to make it so it doesn't repeat recieved audio but I can still hear it at the console and I can still TX from the console.
"I'll eat you like a plate of bacon and eggs in the morning. "
- Some loser on rr.com
eBay at it's finest:
Me: "What exactly is a 900Mhz UHF CB?"
Them: "A very nice CB at 900Mhz speed!"
- Some loser on rr.com
eBay at it's finest:
Me: "What exactly is a 900Mhz UHF CB?"
Them: "A very nice CB at 900Mhz speed!"
-
thebigphish
- Posts: 1477
- Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 10:10 pm
- What radios do you own?: AM/FM
oh ok, so you want the output of the repeater to be dumped back to the console W/O being TX'd?
hmmm...that gets a little more interesting....a switch that would route the flat-audio to either 1) the console for monitoring or 2) the amp & TXmitter on the repeater...might take some wire splicing and interception on the physical level.
hmmm...that gets a little more interesting....a switch that would route the flat-audio to either 1) the console for monitoring or 2) the amp & TXmitter on the repeater...might take some wire splicing and interception on the physical level.
"How do you plan to outwit Death?"
"With a knight and bishop combination; I will destroy his flank." --Antonious Block
"With a knight and bishop combination; I will destroy his flank." --Antonious Block
It sounds like you just want to convert it from a repeater to a remote base when the need arises. How about thebigphish's solenoid idea, but find a way to put it on the COR-to-PTT line somewhere? (I don't know the Quantar) When you throw the switch, the voter no longer tells the transmitter it is receiving a signal, but the console can still key it up over the tone-remote.
If dispatch audio is sent up the phone line to the transmitter, and voter audio is sent back down the phone line to the console, *you* aren't really using it as a repeater anyway. Just break the link from receiver to transmitter when you need to.
If dispatch audio is sent up the phone line to the transmitter, and voter audio is sent back down the phone line to the console, *you* aren't really using it as a repeater anyway. Just break the link from receiver to transmitter when you need to.
Sam
I was hoping there would be someting as simple as an Aux. Input that can be set for "Repeat Disable" or something simple like that.
"I'll eat you like a plate of bacon and eggs in the morning. "
- Some loser on rr.com
eBay at it's finest:
Me: "What exactly is a 900Mhz UHF CB?"
Them: "A very nice CB at 900Mhz speed!"
- Some loser on rr.com
eBay at it's finest:
Me: "What exactly is a 900Mhz UHF CB?"
Them: "A very nice CB at 900Mhz speed!"
Where is the Voter located, that is realy the place to disable the voted audio from repeating. You also need to check that the Quantar does not have "in cabinet repeat" enabled. If it does it will attempt to repeat using the local receiver, this is a feature that most Voted Quantars have to enable them to continue to repeat even if the voter goes down.
The in cabinet repeat can be disabled remotely via tone remote and the voter can be disabled via the terminal strip, a ground to disable if I remember correctly.
We used to have a system that worked that way but removed it after some site improvments (tower and antenna) made the voter unnessessary.
I guess you will have to find out exactly how your system is configured to work up a way to turn it off.
FDNY does it all the time "MIXER OFF" is the signal they use when they do not want their mobile audio repeated, only the dispatcher hears it. They use it when they have something confidental that they do not want repeated, you can still hear the input if you are close.
The in cabinet repeat can be disabled remotely via tone remote and the voter can be disabled via the terminal strip, a ground to disable if I remember correctly.
We used to have a system that worked that way but removed it after some site improvments (tower and antenna) made the voter unnessessary.
I guess you will have to find out exactly how your system is configured to work up a way to turn it off.
FDNY does it all the time "MIXER OFF" is the signal they use when they do not want their mobile audio repeated, only the dispatcher hears it. They use it when they have something confidental that they do not want repeated, you can still hear the input if you are close.
Cause Motorola said so that's why
Yes and yes. The in-cabinet repeat is enabled because if I fail all the voters, it will "failsafe" into a standalone repeater.
"Mixer Off" is exactly what I'm refering to. I didn't use that term because I didn't know if anyone but me has every heard it and maybe I was just making it up in my head.
"Mixer Off" is exactly what I'm refering to. I didn't use that term because I didn't know if anyone but me has every heard it and maybe I was just making it up in my head.
"I'll eat you like a plate of bacon and eggs in the morning. "
- Some loser on rr.com
eBay at it's finest:
Me: "What exactly is a 900Mhz UHF CB?"
Them: "A very nice CB at 900Mhz speed!"
- Some loser on rr.com
eBay at it's finest:
Me: "What exactly is a 900Mhz UHF CB?"
Them: "A very nice CB at 900Mhz speed!"
When I was living up in New England, we did just what your asking for. We had a VHF GE repeater with a wireline DC control. The repeater was ordered to have repeat disable. This would prevent the TX from coming up and it would pass the RX audio to the console when put in the disable mode. When the console keyed up, the Repeater TX would send out the console audio.
Worked great for the mobiles and portables to have a little bit of privacy. Unless they were close to you, you generally didn't hear much on the repeater input.
Unless the repeater was ordered with the disable function, there may be some mods that have to be made to it. It shouldn't be much of an issue to get ity to play.
Jim
Worked great for the mobiles and portables to have a little bit of privacy. Unless they were close to you, you generally didn't hear much on the repeater input.
Unless the repeater was ordered with the disable function, there may be some mods that have to be made to it. It shouldn't be much of an issue to get ity to play.
Jim
Matt
So now you have 2 things you need to do.
First you need to disable the Voter, if you fail it from the dispatch console that more than likely would kill the audio to the console so that is not the answer. You need to do an actual disable of the voter tone keying module, I am asuming this voter controls the Quantar by Tone Remote
Second you need to disable the incabinet repeat, I am not sure but I think the Tone remote Rpt KD (repeater knock down) command will do this.
If you have the full function tone remote on the Quantar you should be able to do this in programing.
As I said before, we no longer use this setup but as I never through anything away I will look for the Voter Manual at work in the morning and see if I remember how we disabled the voter so it still passed voted audio to the dispatch console. The Quantar should be just an added tone remote command
Will post back when I find the manual
Kevin
So now you have 2 things you need to do.
First you need to disable the Voter, if you fail it from the dispatch console that more than likely would kill the audio to the console so that is not the answer. You need to do an actual disable of the voter tone keying module, I am asuming this voter controls the Quantar by Tone Remote
Second you need to disable the incabinet repeat, I am not sure but I think the Tone remote Rpt KD (repeater knock down) command will do this.
If you have the full function tone remote on the Quantar you should be able to do this in programing.
As I said before, we no longer use this setup but as I never through anything away I will look for the Voter Manual at work in the morning and see if I remember how we disabled the voter so it still passed voted audio to the dispatch console. The Quantar should be just an added tone remote command
Will post back when I find the manual
Kevin
Cause Motorola said so that's why
You might be able to get the system to work the way you want just by programming. Sometimes those of us that came up through the Micor days can't get past wanting to solve every problem with our trusty bag of diodes, but these new systems can do a lot of magic too.
Assuming the following:
1. Your console sends tone remote control to the Quantar.
2. Your console is set up for single frequency control and sends 1950 [F1] to key the Quantar.
3. The comparator has a tone keying module and also sends 1950
4. Your console is Gold Elite.
5. The console is either connected in parallel with the voter output or through a tone priority module.
6. Your Quantar has a wireline board and new enough firmware for wildcard to function correctly.
The first thing we do is create a second channel in the Quantar codeplug - making it identical to the existing channel. [this will let us use channel selection by TRC which can then ALSO cause wildcard functions to be perfomed]
Then we set up the tone remote table as follows:
1950 = KEY
1850 = CHN 001, KEY
1750 = CHN 001, KEY, CHN 002
Then we set up the wild card action table:
CUR CHN 001, Action = TX ENABLE
CUR CHN 002, Action = TX DISABLE
Then we program a custom tone definition table in the Elite CDM to create a two frequency base type that uses 1850 for F1 and 1750 for F2. We program the channel resource [BIM] we are modifying to use this custom table. We set up the two frequency names to say "REPEATER ON" and "REPEATER OFF"
It works like this. Channel two in the Quantar is selected by the custom F2 command from the console. The first action the radio takes when the console sends 1750 is to go to channel 1 and trasmit as usual, then after the low guard tone drops out, the station changes to channel two. That causes the wildcard to disable the station transmitter.
The comparator always sends 1950. 1950 is always interpreted as a "KEY" command, BUT, if the last action from the console left the station in "TX DISABLE" it won't do anything, either from the comparator OR from in cabinet fall back repeat.
The console F1 action [1850] switches the radio to F1 and leaves it that way after transmitting so the wildcard leaves the transmitter enabled and the comparator will repeat through the station as it currently does.
Everything you want - no parts - no diodes - no soldering iron - just a few minutes poking computer keys.
Disclaimer - I haven't actually done this, but I have high confidence that the concept will solve your problem.
Assuming the following:
1. Your console sends tone remote control to the Quantar.
2. Your console is set up for single frequency control and sends 1950 [F1] to key the Quantar.
3. The comparator has a tone keying module and also sends 1950
4. Your console is Gold Elite.
5. The console is either connected in parallel with the voter output or through a tone priority module.
6. Your Quantar has a wireline board and new enough firmware for wildcard to function correctly.
The first thing we do is create a second channel in the Quantar codeplug - making it identical to the existing channel. [this will let us use channel selection by TRC which can then ALSO cause wildcard functions to be perfomed]
Then we set up the tone remote table as follows:
1950 = KEY
1850 = CHN 001, KEY
1750 = CHN 001, KEY, CHN 002
Then we set up the wild card action table:
CUR CHN 001, Action = TX ENABLE
CUR CHN 002, Action = TX DISABLE
Then we program a custom tone definition table in the Elite CDM to create a two frequency base type that uses 1850 for F1 and 1750 for F2. We program the channel resource [BIM] we are modifying to use this custom table. We set up the two frequency names to say "REPEATER ON" and "REPEATER OFF"
It works like this. Channel two in the Quantar is selected by the custom F2 command from the console. The first action the radio takes when the console sends 1750 is to go to channel 1 and trasmit as usual, then after the low guard tone drops out, the station changes to channel two. That causes the wildcard to disable the station transmitter.
The comparator always sends 1950. 1950 is always interpreted as a "KEY" command, BUT, if the last action from the console left the station in "TX DISABLE" it won't do anything, either from the comparator OR from in cabinet fall back repeat.
The console F1 action [1850] switches the radio to F1 and leaves it that way after transmitting so the wildcard leaves the transmitter enabled and the comparator will repeat through the station as it currently does.
Everything you want - no parts - no diodes - no soldering iron - just a few minutes poking computer keys.
Disclaimer - I haven't actually done this, but I have high confidence that the concept will solve your problem.
Matt: if I understand, you can accomplish all you want with a simple "Repeat Disable" command. During the reign of "Repeat Disable," audio decoded over the input freq is still processed and sent down the wireline but is not transmitted over the output freq, while audio coming up the wireline via the Console PTT is transmitted over the output freq. During this time, you essentially have a two-frequency simplex system.
There are two ways to do this. One is via the SpectraTac remote keyer; the other is via a wildcard function at the Quantar itself. (You either program an additional TRC tone for "Repeat Disable" or program one input pin so that then it is grounded, it invokes the Repeat Disable function; Repeat Disable also trumps FBICR).
The difficulty doing it via the SpectraTac remote keyer is that, if FBICR has been programmed in the Quantar, then the Quantar will automatically key up and repeat what it hears over its own receiver if (i) that receiver goes Tone Valid and (ii) with 40 ms the station does not get a key up signal over the wireline. Eventually, you'll have to find a way to turn off FBICR during the Repeater Disable interval, which means getting a signal up the hill, which in turn means that doing it via a TRC command is easier after all.
There are two ways to do this. One is via the SpectraTac remote keyer; the other is via a wildcard function at the Quantar itself. (You either program an additional TRC tone for "Repeat Disable" or program one input pin so that then it is grounded, it invokes the Repeat Disable function; Repeat Disable also trumps FBICR).
The difficulty doing it via the SpectraTac remote keyer is that, if FBICR has been programmed in the Quantar, then the Quantar will automatically key up and repeat what it hears over its own receiver if (i) that receiver goes Tone Valid and (ii) with 40 ms the station does not get a key up signal over the wireline. Eventually, you'll have to find a way to turn off FBICR during the Repeater Disable interval, which means getting a signal up the hill, which in turn means that doing it via a TRC command is easier after all.
Matt
I have to go with XMO's control arangement, it requires no hardware mods.
I found the SpectraTac manual and it apears that we did some sort of modification to do the voted repeat disable. We used the power fail relay option to take the Voter off line and only cancel the console TX.
XMO's way is much simpler, It's amazing what you can do with the Quantar Wildcard.
Kevin
I have to go with XMO's control arangement, it requires no hardware mods.
I found the SpectraTac manual and it apears that we did some sort of modification to do the voted repeat disable. We used the power fail relay option to take the Voter off line and only cancel the console TX.
XMO's way is much simpler, It's amazing what you can do with the Quantar Wildcard.
Kevin
Cause Motorola said so that's why
xmo: Why do you think it necessary to program two channels and use TRC tones to switch them? Wouldn't it be simpler to program one tone for repeat disable (with nothing in the "undetect" side of the wildcard screen) and another for repeat enable?
Actually, if I were going to do this, I'd put a timer in the programming for the repeat disable, so that in the absence of any key for 5 minutes, it revert to repeat. I've seen cases where the dispatcher forgot to reset the "Code 44" button and the lack of a repeater got in the way of operations.
Actually, if I were going to do this, I'd put a timer in the programming for the repeat disable, so that in the absence of any key for 5 minutes, it revert to repeat. I've seen cases where the dispatcher forgot to reset the "Code 44" button and the lack of a repeater got in the way of operations.
I agree with XMO that you need to do an Xmit Disable, A repeat disable would just stop the Quantar in cabinet repeat of the local receiver.
Here we are dealing with a Voted receiver system where the audio to be repeated comes down the wireline with Tone Remote Control just like the Console does so the only way to stop it from repeating is to disable the Xmiter
Here we are dealing with a Voted receiver system where the audio to be repeated comes down the wireline with Tone Remote Control just like the Console does so the only way to stop it from repeating is to disable the Xmiter
Cause Motorola said so that's why
If the Voter is in the same loc as the Console, use an AUX function to mute the audio from the Voter going to the repeater, and have the console get the audio before the mute point. The repeater still keys up tho, but no repeated audio.
On some systems/consoles when the console keys up the repeater the voted audio is not passed to the transmitter. A "dead" key button on the console keys the repeater with out any mic OR voter/receive audio.
OR xmo's way puts the accual repeater into half duplex mode, it does not transmit but continues to receive and can be only keyed from the console normally.
Even our R100 has that function (no repeat audio) anytime it is keyed locally, the repeat audio is muted.
On some systems/consoles when the console keys up the repeater the voted audio is not passed to the transmitter. A "dead" key button on the console keys the repeater with out any mic OR voter/receive audio.
OR xmo's way puts the accual repeater into half duplex mode, it does not transmit but continues to receive and can be only keyed from the console normally.
Even our R100 has that function (no repeat audio) anytime it is keyed locally, the repeat audio is muted.
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ASTROMODAT
- Posts: 1825
- Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2002 12:32 am
I can't believe how complicated folks are making this! We have Quantars with Zetron Model 280 Tone Remotes connected to DIU3000s. With, or without, a DIU, the standard Quantar has a set-up/knock down function which does exactly what you want. In Knock Down mode, you will hear all input traffic at the console, but it will not be repeated. You can also transmit from the console in this mode. Hitting Set Up returns it to normal repeat mode.
What am I missing?!
Larry
What am I missing?!
Larry
"...What am I missing?! ..."
________________________
The solution is more complicated because the system is more complicated. This is a voted system with in cabinet fall back.
Repeater disable will only knock down the in-cabinet repeat. The comparator repeat path keys the station through the wireline input - just like the console does.
You could use repeater disable by TRC and disable the comparator with a separate Aux I/O control, but then you would have two controls to get set right - not a good idea in public safety dispatch centers.
________________________
The solution is more complicated because the system is more complicated. This is a voted system with in cabinet fall back.
Repeater disable will only knock down the in-cabinet repeat. The comparator repeat path keys the station through the wireline input - just like the console does.
You could use repeater disable by TRC and disable the comparator with a separate Aux I/O control, but then you would have two controls to get set right - not a good idea in public safety dispatch centers.
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Quarterwave
- Posts: 68
- Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 7:15 pm
I used to have 4 or 5 techs working for me in the MSS and I swear their middle initials were all "SP".... HA HA! Those guys loved to jump on something like this. I know you said you have modern equipment, but I remember an old station having a repeat card in them for DC or Tone control of the Repeat function, making it a split duplex base on demand. I would think that would get carried into the "soft" functionality of the newer stuff.
I had one tech that would run like he saw a ghost if he looked at the service ticket and the model number had SP0... on the end
Then I had this one guy that always said, the best time to buy a model of Motorola radio was the day the last one went down the production line....fewer bugs!
Sorry to ramble, I enjoy the conversations on this board.
Q
I had one tech that would run like he saw a ghost if he looked at the service ticket and the model number had SP0... on the end
Then I had this one guy that always said, the best time to buy a model of Motorola radio was the day the last one went down the production line....fewer bugs!
Sorry to ramble, I enjoy the conversations on this board.
Q