Police, using digital or what??

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:58 pm

Since i was already on the subject tonight, on a local repeater, i wanted to ask here. The local police department, both the city and the County Sheriff all use one dispatch, since there is nothing but small towns around here they all go through the same dispatch at the County Jail. They installed all new equipment about a year ago when they built the new facility and now nobody can listen in for the hell of it anymore.

If you sit on the frequencies that they use you never hear anything, even with the squelch open there is no sign of a change in background noise. No signal detectable whatsoever. What the heck are they using? Is it a digital system i'm guessing? I know the local police units in town have Trunk mount Spectra's that say something like SPS or something like that on them. I have had the opportunity to help the police work on a squad, wiring in new lights and so forth, though i didn't get much time to snoop.

So the question is this, given that we know the frequencies they are on, by looking up the FCC licenses, how can one listen in? And what would be the cheapest way to do it? A HT that could be programmed to receive only would be perfect since there would be no question as to accidental transmission. Which i would assume wouldn't be a problem anyway because of the way they access the repeaters?

Thanks,

Scott

mancow · Post by **mancow** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:01 pm

What city is it?

mancow

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:07 pm

The city is Tyler, but the Lake Benton and the Ivanhoe PD's are all on the same system. And also the Lincoln County Sheriff's Department is on the same system.

I know that much because all the traffic is on one channel when you get a chance to listen to one of the officers HT's or the mobiles, we all know how loud they keep em, lol.

Their HT's are nothing special, i have seen a couple carrying the MT1000, and the Chief carries a newer HT750 most of the time. At least it looks like a HT750, haven't seen the number on it yet. But when they sit and have coffee at the local hangout they have their MT1000 on the table.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:10 pm

Before anyone gets huffy about listening to the cops, we like to keep tabs to any info they may be passing when us local hams are out on storm watching. They of course have had little use for cooperation with the local ham clubs and don't care to share any inside info.

mancow · Post by **mancow** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:13 pm

I wouldn't worry about anyone getting concerned.

So, you're saying you never hear anything at all, ever, on the published frequencies?

mancow

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:16 pm

Nope, i thought at first maybe they just didn't have much traffic going through. I mean, these are small towns anyway, but i know that the dispatch calls the officer on duty here in Tyler once an hour or so for a radio check and i can be listening on frequency and never hear anything, or see any sign of signal.

If i listen to the frequency on my Yaesu FT-847 i don't see any indication of signal strength either, just thought of that yesterday and left it open squelch for a while, about ten hours, i think my head still hurts from the static.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:21 pm

So, keeping in mind that most of the officers here in Tyler use an MT1000, i wonder what that radio is capable of?

Mancow,

Can you look up the frequencies? Perhaps i'm on the frequencies they no longer use or something? I used the FCC database and only found the ones that have always been listed.

I also used http://www.radioreference.com and displayed all FCC licenses in Lincoln County. I have been scanning through them for about a week without anything more than a little chatter from the electric coop, and some radio chatter from the city department utility crew. The hospital is another one that i can hear, and the FD shares frequencies with the PD so i can no longer listen to them either.

mancow · Post by **mancow** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:23 pm

They must have switched. Did you check the freqs. you're listening to against what's posted on the net and FCC?

mancow

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:24 pm

It also shows they are in the Public Safety Pool, Conventional. So that rules out trunking or something like that.

mancow · Post by **mancow** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:26 pm

Yea, this is what I'm looking at:

http://www.radioreference.com./modules. ... &cs=KAJ351

mancow

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:30 pm

Those are the frequencies i am listening to, nothing, nada. I can even be listening there while i hear the radio chatter coming from the squad car across the street, and i never get anything.

So either they have some hidden licenses i don't know what else to try. The frequencies for the neighboring Lyon County are all correct and i can listen to them at will.

Also if you notice the two stars on that map, you will hear them check in saying officer number and South or North tower. So there appears to be two seperate repeaters, or receivers.

mancow · Post by **mancow** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:32 pm

It looks like they got their letter and updated it so I don't know.

We'll have to do some more searching to see if they acquired a new license.

mancow

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:34 pm

What do mean they got their letter?

And they have been on the new system for almost a year now, sure thought that some different licenses would show up by now. Bummer!

mancow · Post by **mancow** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:42 pm

It showed they got a letter a year or so ago updating their licence.

http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSear ... ey=1248025

mancow

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:46 pm

FCC ULS also brings up:

KNEC875

153.905
155.025

That license was granted Jan 25, 2003 and is labeled PW, and the mailing address associated with it shows ATTN: Lincoln County Sheriff's Office.

Then there is a mobile radio location license in the 10ghz range.

And the Ivanhoe PD on UHF.

WPUA924

453.7625
458.7625

I will have to try the first two VHF that i found, maybe that is part of the new system since Jan 2003 would be about right for the new equipment going on the air.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:50 pm

Ahh ok, and i see associated with that renewal notice is the frequencies on rr.com so no surprises there.

I guess they must still be on the same frequencies, but i don't understand what kind of encryption or digital, or whatever they may be using.

Any ideas considering the equipement involved? Heck the old squad they use as an extra vehicle during large city events is only running a SyntorX, not even a X9000, just the old SyntorX with sys90 heads.

The new squad has a Spectra of some sort, and the HT's they use are just normal looking MT1000's that have seen their days in use!

I'm puzzled.

mancow · Post by **mancow** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:08 pm

They have to be on a freq. you aren't listening to. Have you done a search of the Vhf band with a scanner?

I can't imagine they would be doing everything by nextel or mdt.

mancow

n9upc · Post by **n9upc** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:42 pm

Try the yahoo group Scan MN you maybe able to get more info about MN scanning then on here.

Just a heads up.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:07 pm

I've searched the VHF band with a scanner i borrowed from a friend that has a digital display on it, i think the manufacturer called it the bandscope, anyway thats how i know where the local hospital's ambulance frequency is, and their pager system. He lives in Lyon county and listens to the PD and County Sheriff all the time. It sucks down here, nothing to listen to but the city maintenance crew changing bulbs in street lights. lol

I guess i will just have to keep hunting then.

So for sure, with the equipment they are using its not a matter of some kind of encryption, or secure transmission then? I should be able to hear them when i find them? There isn't any digital options for the Spectra or the MT1000? The Spectra had SPS on the top of it, kinda embossed into the radio lid.

I have all their licensed frequencies programmed into my scanner and i have been waiting to hear something night and day for about two months. Nada...

mancow · Post by **mancow** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:11 pm

Man, you got me. I don't know.

I would rule out anything special on their part. The only thing that would "disappear" would be a spread spectrum signal and rest assured they aren't using that.

mancow

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:15 pm

Ok, well i will keep listening and scanning the band. They have to be there somewhere.

But if i find them and they are using some form of secure voice then i take it i still won't be able to ever listen in again?

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:16 pm

If only i could get my hands on one of the MT1000's long enough to read with the RSS, lol...

That will never happen...

KG6EAQ · Post by **KG6EAQ** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 2:49 am

What band is the antenna on the MT1000?

There is no "digital" version of the MT1000.
The "digital" version of the Spectra is the Astro Spectra.

Go buy a frequency counter, get somewhat close to a cruiser and cross your fingers.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:21 am

They are indeed VHF MT1000's, got a good look at the antenna on one this morning when i stopped in for some coffee, and the frequencies all seem to be right compared to FCC records.

I don't know. Listening this morning i hear a small burst of static now and then on one of the frequencies that the local PD uses. Must be some kind of secure voice transmission.

Good idea on the frequency counter, i got one of the portable units, might try sitting outside the local gathering spot while they are having coffee. Maybe if i'm lucky one of them will transmit.

mike m · Post by **mike m** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:27 am

Get yourself one of the opto-electronics near field receivers. It will lock on to the strongest RF carrier and demodulate it for you so if your near a lot ofdifferent RF signals you could capture the wrong one but if your right next to a PD car and it transmits you should see the freq. on the display and hear some noise, even if it's digital you will hear the noise floor come up and a rushing sound from the speaker.

Mike

VA3XDJ · Post by **VA3XDJ** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 8:50 am

Could they be usings their Spectras in secure mode (DES) combined with a PacRT to interface to their portables in the field?

This would result in hearing a loud open-squelch like signal which ends with a high pitched tone (end of transmission marker)

I know this sounds a bit high tech for a small town but our rural police service use UHF portables PacRT'd into VHF mobiles (to extend range) and use DVP (Canadian version of DES encryption) during operations of sensitive nature.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 9:35 am

Thats a good thought, but i happen to know for sure that they do not use a pac-rt setup for the portables. The reason i know that is when i helped wire up some of the lights there is nothing more than a spectra in the trunk, the control head and siren/pa box are up front in the center console.

Weird why i never hear much of anything. I did finally hear the weekly FD pager test this morning. Haven't heard that in a while! But i'm not normally near a radio early morning. So i know at least that they still use the frequencies shown on the FCC ULS and on the radio reference website.

OX · Post by OX » Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:04 am

Number one problem, if they are using digital or encryption, you WILL hear a signal. DES sounds like white noise/static. Digital is similar. To hear nothing means that they aren't using those channels. Maybe they have switched to a regional system?

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:16 am

Well, you can rest assure that are not using any of the fancy dancy stuff if their radios are MT1000's and HT750's. They don't do any of that so you can factor that out.

They are either on a different frequency, or they just aren't talking while you are listening to it. Simple as that.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:25 am

Well i guess i will just listen another month or two and give up. Hard to believe that they have such a small amount of daily radio traffic. I have been listening non stop day and night, that is whenever i'm within earshot of a scanner or radio and have yet to hear anything more than a pager test for the FD this morning, that was the most i heard in two months!

Ok, good to hear that they aren't using anything fancy with the radios they use, i'll just keep band scanning. If they moved though you would think there would be a license in the FCC ULS database showing the new frequency, there is for every other county around here and those frequencies are correct.

KG6EAQ · Post by **KG6EAQ** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:32 am

You'd think they'd get new liceneses.... but whole states have been known to :o that up.

If they are on a regional system, very good chance the frequencies would be licensed to the regional group.

NodrogCop · Post by **NodrogCop** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 3:17 pm

kb0nly wrote:FCC ULS also brings up:

KNEC875

153.905
155.025

Poking around, I found some more - most found at http://www.cityfreq.com/mn/ivanhoe/

153.9050 LINCOLN COUNTY OF
154.8750 LINCOLN COUNTY OF
155.0250 LINCOLN COUNTY OF
155.3700 LINCOLN COUNTY OF
155.4750 LINCOLN COUNTY OF
156.0900 LINCOLN COUNTY OF
156.2250 LINCOLN COUNTY OF

I didn't know if these would be of any help.

Gordon

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 4:55 pm

Thanks Gordon, but i already had those frequencies from the FCC site, those are the ones i have been listening to.

I heard a little bit of activity on 154.875, a few open transmissions, the rest were just bursts of static. But, 154.875 is also one of the statewide channels.

Oh well, not a huge loss considering the small town crime rate, not a lot to listen too even back when we could. I just wanted to poke around at it and see what everyone thought!

chartofmaryland · Post by **chartofmaryland** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 6:21 pm

Wait a minute, you installed lights in their cars, and you don't have their frequencies?

Say you might have forgotten a tool in the trunk of one of their cars, get in key up and grab a scanner to check the frequency.

You can narrow this down VERY quickly

CHART

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 6:26 pm

Thought about that, but it was about 5 months back, lol!

W4KRR · Post by **W4KRR** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:10 am

Try using a portable frequency counter. Obviously they aren't using the frequencies that you've been monitoring.

jhooten · Post by **jhooten** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:16 am

Ok then tell them that you want to give the installs a free 6 month check as part of the quality service you provide to them.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 7:51 am

hehehe, i like both ideas.

I got a portable frequency counter, i'm going to bring it with me in the mornings when i go past the local hangout. Bound to catch one of them having coffee during a radio check or something.

Cowthief · Post by **Cowthief** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 1:48 pm

Hello.

Have you tried to ask?

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 2:12 pm

Yep, they look at you like a terrorist or something.

n1pj · Post by **n1pj** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:23 am

kb0nly wrote:Thanks Gordon, but i already had those frequencies from the FCC site, those are the ones i have been listening to.

I heard a little bit of activity on 154.875, a few open transmissions, the rest were just bursts of static. But, 154.875 is also one of the statewide channels.

Oh well, not a huge loss considering the small town crime rate, not a lot to listen too even back when we could. I just wanted to poke around at it and see what everyone thought!

Bursts of static, you probably just answered your question. Listen to those bursts of static really closely, is there a wine at the end of the burst. If there is then those are the frequencies and they are using encryption.

firetech792 · Post by **firetech792** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:31 am

A small police dept here in NJ went to a privately owned SMR system on 500 MHZ. (LTR format). They operate under the SMR's license. So therefore, they don't show a license on this new system.

Just a thought.....maybe its the same deal but only on VHF

firetech792

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:53 am

After listening for a while they are using the frequencies listed, but most of the time its a secure transmission. Whenever they are using an HT its analog voice, but when they are in the squad its secure. Just a short burst of static now and then is all i hear.

The other day there was a large funeral that they had to escort, and the officer directing traffic transmitted on his HT a few times, i heard those transmissions but the replies from the officer in the squad were just bursts of white noise.

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 12:55 am

kb0nly wrote:After listening for a while they are using the frequencies listed, but most of the time its a secure transmission. Whenever they are using an HT its analog voice, but when they are in the squad its secure. Just a short burst of static now and then is all i hear.

The other day there was a large funeral that they had to escort, and the officer directing traffic transmitted on his HT a few times, i heard those transmissions but the replies from the officer in the squad were just bursts of white noise.

That doesn't make a lot of sence. If they are doing that, when they use there mobles, they won't be able to hear it on the handhelds.

Cam

(Coming to you via sat. internet from somewere in the Pacific.)

KG6EAQ · Post by **KG6EAQ** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:01 am

Cam22 wrote:(Coming to you via sat. internet from somewere in the Pacific.)

What provider are you using? Decent speed?

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:36 am

Cam22 wrote:
kb0nly wrote:After listening for a while they are using the frequencies listed, but most of the time its a secure transmission. Whenever they are using an HT its analog voice, but when they are in the squad its secure. Just a short burst of static now and then is all i hear.

The other day there was a large funeral that they had to escort, and the officer directing traffic transmitted on his HT a few times, i heard those transmissions but the replies from the officer in the squad were just bursts of white noise.
That doesn't make a lot of sence. If they are doing that, when they use there mobles, they won't be able to hear it on the handhelds.

Cam

(Coming to you via sat. internet from somewere in the Pacific.)

Well, the portables could be setup for secure but just transmitting in the clear. I know it seems stupid to use it on one but not the other. Maybe they don't like the reduction in range & quality found in transmitting secure on a portable?

RESCUE161 · Post by **RESCUE161** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:55 am

But the portables that he said they're using aren't capable of encryption.

I think he is just listening to the input of the repeater and not the output...

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:42 am

Ok, here's the deal. Today they had a large drill for the fire department, knew about it ahead of time so i could listen.

The Dispatch is in the clear all the time, you will always hear the dispatch end of the call. For example, squad 1 calls in to say hes on a traffic stop, the dispatch acknowledges, then a little while later i hear a random length of static from squad 1 and then the dispatch acknowledges and gives information like make and model and year of birth blah blah blah, so i would assume the random length of static was squad 1 calling in the license plate and drivers license number etc. The HT's they are using don't have any type of encryption whatsoever, and when they transmit on either their direct channel (simplex) or on the repeater input you will hear them clear as day. When the mobiles transmit they will transmit either secure or open to the repeater depending on the traffic they need to pass, if they are on the repeater and need to contact another officer on his HT then it will be an open transmission, hourly radio checks and so forth are all done in open transmissions, any transmission of information by squad 1 is done securely but the dispatch doesn't seem to follow, i would assume the dispatch never transmits secure because otherwise everyone on HT's wouldn't get anything.

And then on the direct channel (simplex) everything is in the clear to facilitate communication between the mobile and HT.

Is that confusing enough? I sat here taking notes on every transmission heard, on the output and the input of the repeater, simplex, as well as noting when it was secure.

I have also noted that on occasion the mobiles may transmit secure to the repeater, i hear the secure on the input, but on the output its open. Kinda like it should have only been decoded for the dispatch but was mistakenly retransmitted? Its hard to keep track of their comms, never know what they may do.

Also, they have licenses listed for the input and output frequencies of the repeater as well as the simplex frequency, but there is another frequency not listed in the FCC database. I'm trying to confirm it, since its not always used, but there appears to be another remote receiver for traffic from officers on their HT's. Every now and then they might transmit to a different frequency to get through to dispatch. And also the radio traffic and pager tests confirm that there is two systems in use, as you will hear the dispatch announce test complete on South tower, and test complete on North tower, etc.

Post by **/\/\y 2 cents** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:51 am

sounds overly complicated for such a small town. You must only have secure vehicular repeaters. kinda foolish if you ask me, your only as strong as your weakest link...you have lots of weak links so whomever is under the impression that the system is "encrypted" is terribly mistaken.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:54 am

Basically what it boils down to, the reason why you think your on the input rather than the output, or your not on the right frequency at all, is that there is very very little radio traffic from them in the course of an average day around here. And sometimes all you hear is the dispatch because the mobiles will transmit secure on the input of the repeater but the repeater doesn't retransmit that secure transmission in either form so only the dispatch is hearing that unit.

Than there is the times that for whatever reason, be it an oops, or the dispatch did something wrong, or the equipment sometimes has a brain fart, the secure transmission will be heard on the input and the decoded form of it will also be heard on the output!

Anyway, to hear anything around here it has to be a friday or saturday night and usually rather late, after the bars close. I have gone all day from 8am to 8pm without hearing anything but pagers tests at noon and 6pm, and then in the evening they start with the hourly radio checks. Guess they think its a better chance of them getting into trouble at night rather than during the day.

Police, using digital or what??

Police, using digital or what??

Ask?